Theo's Rogue PvP FAQFollow

I agree the name is a little misleading it should be :Arena FAQ.

1v1 is in fact pvp, since its against another player. world pvp is pvp, BGs are pvp etc etc.

Nontheless rateup for taking the time, and it does have useful arena info. That is, as long as he finishes it ;)

why not nethercleft?

dont need the hp, the dps stats are better

True, but when you have 3 pcs of s3, and 2pcs of s2 along with the Vindicator gear, you're already sitting at 11k.

I found pandemic on the armory but couldn't view any profiles...

Spec Discussion

Here's my favorite part. Spec discussion. This is going to be incredibly long and detailed into why I chose each talent, etc, but hey, it's worth it to get the knowledge down. I suggest reading through once, getting a general impression for what the class is responsible for in each role that a build will slot you in, and then go back through and form your opinion on what role will benefit your team the most.

I'll be talking about roles in the 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5 discussion, so not knowing the roles of the rogue will be detrimental to your reading of those discussions.

The Burst Role

Mutilate is going to be the build of choice for this role, generally. Early in S3 the role could also be HARP (which is an outdated build), and now late in S3 the role can be filled by a hybrid, which I'll discuss further later.

As far as Mutilate goes, you have a couple different variations.

Heavy Poisons Mutilate (50/0/11) is a great build for 5s, and a decent build for 2s on a double DPS team, though a durability build is usually preferred, depending on your teammate.

Pros to this build are high burst damage, incredible combo point generation, and moderate control.

Cons are of course the lack of mobility (no Imp Sprint or Prep leave you with very few outs), and very little sustained damage. No Elusiveness hurts in longer fights.

Elusiveness Mutilate (44/0/17) is my preferred Mutilate build. It's more balanced than 50/0/11 towards mobility and crowd control, though you tend to miss out on some of the bonuses that 50/0/11 can give you.

Pros to this build are high burst damage, incredibly combo point generation (often to the point that you don't know what to do with so many combo points), and good control. Elusiveness, Camo, and another point in MoD.

Cons, as with all sub/mutilate, is the lack of mobility, and less sustained damage. In this build, lack of Imp EA will hurt in any comp with warriors/enhancement shamans/feral druids.

Combat Mutilate (41/20/0) is an extremely powerful Mutilate build, and has the advantage of being PvE-viable. It has more mobility with the addition of Imp Sprint and greater sustained DPS with DW Spec. Generally the spec of choice with a healer in 2s, though lack of Imp KS hurts in double DPS setups.

Pros to this build include--as mentioned--great sustained DPS (enough for it to be very PvE-viable), decent mobility with the addition of Imp Sprint to the build, and moderate combo points generation.

Cons are lack of MoD, lack of extreme burst from Opportunity, and lack of Dirty Tricks. You probably won't be getting off a sap on a good team with this build.

The Durability Role

Shadowstep is the main staple to this role. With the talents that come with speccing into Shadowstep, you can take a good amount of beating, almost to the point of using a mix of PvE/PvP gear on a team with good healers, boosting your damage.

Before we continue, I need to mention one thing:

THIS IS NOT A DAGGER BUILD!

You will be using maces/swords/fists with this build. Most rogues tend to gravitate towards maces and swords, as fists outside of the fists introduced in 2.4 aren't very good for PvP. (They work, though.)

There are two types of Shadowstep builds. Vile Poisons builds, and heavier sub builds.

Vile Poisons Shadowstep (20/0/41) will be the spec that I'll discuss first. This spec is strong on control. Controlling healers with Vile Poisons can make a game, and added to that the ability to stick to healers--especially druids--make teams with a druid healer almost too easy. Take note that I took 4/5 Lethality and 5/5 Vile Poisons.

Pros are the survivability that Prep, Cheat Death, and Shadowstep provide, as well as the strength that Vile Poisons has over other talent setups. Trust me, spec into Vile and spec out, and you'll notice the difference in the arena.

Cons are lack of burst and sustained damage. Your survivability really does come at a cost, guys.

Heavy Sub Shadowstep (17/0/44) is a build that focuses more on the support and damage aspect of the sub tree. In my opinion (keep in mind I haven't used this build extensively) it's the weaker of the two, as you lose quite a bit by not having Vile Poisons. Enveloping Shadows is a great addition though, and underrated by quite a bit.

Pros of the build are definitely Enveloping Shadows (it can resist ANY AoE), as well as Imp EA. Combined with Serrated Blades and the amount of Armor Penetration that's on S3 gear and will be on S4 gear, this can be a great way to blow up a clothie.

Cons are, of course, low burst and sustained damage.

The Support Role

First off, these are not 2s builds. At all. I don't care how awesome you think they may be, they're intended to make people go "WTF JUST HIT YOU" in a 3s/5s match. Generally used in conjunction with an enhancement shaman/warrior/feral druid; warrior being the best. You put up EA and KS and watch cloth targets drop in a matter of seconds. Not much explanation required, as if your team is asking you to spec these, or if you know enough on how to use them, you really don't need my help.

I'll accept questions or PMs about these two builds if they're specific questions and they include "I'm running a warrior/rogue/(enhancement or feral)/priest/paladin team in 5s and was wondering..." or "I'm running a warrior/rogue/druid team in 3s and was wondering..." because those are really the only times when these builds are viable.

Cheat Death/Imp KS (27/0/34) is the first, and Ashtongue (30/0/31) is the second--so named because if you use it without the Ashtongue Trinket, you're a moron.

That about does it for talents. If you have other options, they're probably not viable, or they're incredibly specialized in their role. Of course, feel free to PM me if you think otherwise, though I withhold the right to call you a moron if you're being an idiot.

Edited, Apr 9th 2008 7:30pm by Theophany

Maybe it isn't viable in the arena anymore, combat maces?

PS I too am continuously rating you up. Look how psyched everyone is when you are constructive.

Edited, Apr 10th 2008 10:09am by DrMayhem

How do I rate up posts?

If my memory serves me well, Combat Maces took a bit hit the day Prep changed, so that it did not include AR anymore (this was together with the Hemo nerf and all other powerful changes to the Sub tree).

Since then, my feeling is that you get so many amazing goodies in the Sub tree that it is worth speccing deep into Sub for pvp (as opposed to full Combat or hybrid).

As it is right now, I might consider changing back to Muti if I had good daggers, but I am not even sure. Hemo gives me so much versatility (and also the benefit of having non-positional attacks, which is valuable against good opponents who know how to move) that I doubt I will change my build for some time.

nostra

Theo, this is just great man, thank you so much. The Gem and enchants tips I had mostly picked up from you and the others bit by bit over the past months, but there were some holes, and having it all in one concise yet comprehensive thread is just so helpful.

And the spec section was also beneficial, and a nice way to get out of updating your old guide so you can just focus on the PVP aspect, which is what I mostly care about.

Rate ups!

Edited, Apr 10th 2008 10:09am by Teklabz

Combat maces is really only viable anymore in very specific conditions. That being with a disc priest healer in 2s. I was planning on discussing this in my 2v2 section.

ShS will still be better, though.


If it's an average post, why is 98% of this new information to this forum?

The only other thing I know of that will go into as much strategy as I have here is ZugGaming, and Zuggy focuses on the combat maces/disc priest setup. He has a general knowledge outside of that, but if you try and get him to talk about how a mage/rogue team would handle a lock/druid team, good luck.


If you were going Mut for RMP, I'd go heavy poisons. A 1.5 min Blind isn't going to matter when you've got Scream and Poly.

Imp Poisons in addition to Vile, on the other hand, will help a lot in keeping a target poisoned for your damage bonus.

ShS is a definite possibility, but the team you're going to be playing on is all about burst burst burst, so why not play one of the heaviest burst builds we have? If you had a Renataki, I'd suggest using that, but generally as your mage shatter combos, you should have a full 120 energy to dump into his target. No amount of healing will be able to keep that up (shatter combo + Imp KS + your burst).


This is incorrect thinking, and I've tested this multiple times over the past few months.

Agi is thought to be better for damage because you get more crit from Sinister Calling.

Resilience killed crit, though.

AP is just a damage boost, flat-out. There's no itemization lost when you get another 2% of crit, but you're not going from 30% to 33%, you're going from 20% to 23%.

AP also helps your Hemo damage quite a bit.

There are of course top rogues that socket Agi, but I find them to be few and far between. Most socket AP, as that's by far the more viable stat in high end PvP--even for Mut.

Also keep in mind that when I was socketing Agi, I only had ~1750 AP, while socketing AP I have 1877 AP.

Good thought. I may add it into the Mechanics discussion, but more likely it'll be it's own post.

Stat importance can be found in the Mechanics post, specifically the gemming/enchanting section.

Mutilate, because of Puncturing Wounds, doesn't need to socket for crit. In fact, you gain more damage by going straight AP.

The only change is the meta gem, where you should use a 12 crit/5% snare/root resist meta.