So I finally got my Druid to 70, and although I planned on going Resto, I decided to try fill the Offtank role that my guild has been lacking for so long. I'm well on my way to acquiring all of the recommended pre-Kara gear for tanks (sorry I think I logged out in my DPS set), and I'm sitting at a whopping 26 hit rating in my tanking gear. To make matters worse, with the exception of the +3 hit rating bonus from my Necklace of the Deep, all of my hit rating comes from greens that should be replaced with instance drops.
I only had to OT a couple mobs in Kara and my threat generation was absolutely horrible. I was running recap and my total miss rate (miss + dodge + parry) was in the 25% range, which I find completely unacceptable. The DPS was forced to hold back, which I just can't stand. So my question is, where do you guys get your hit rating? From what I can tell, there is almost nothing on the bear tanking leather list that has +hit on it. The recommended cloaks and rings all have high armor, stam and defense. I'm currently wearing the heavy clefthoof set, which is gemmed for stam and +defense/+stam to get me uncrittable. I still have a couple BM runs ahead of me to get the helm enchant, at which point I can replace the defense/stam gems with hit gems, but are gems my only option? I thought getting hit rating for my warrior tank was tough, but this seems much worse. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks in advance,
Camel
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Bear Tanks - Where do you get your hit from?Follow
hit rating is decent for tanks, but not ideal. expertise is much more awesome if you can get it (it mitigates dodges and parries instead of just affecting your base chance to miss), so go for that if at all possible. as you noted, you dont find much of either of those stats on good tanking gear, so you really just need to bear with it (har har) until you get better stuff. after you run kara a few times and snag a few epics, your def rating should (hopefully) be high enough that you might be able to re-gem to a bit of hit rating.
just dont prioritize hit over stam or def. early kara bosses dont have enrage timers, so if you take a little longer to get a boss down because of threat issues, then so be it. by the time having good TPS generation becomes an issue you should have enough better gear to make the difference.
just dont prioritize hit over stam or def. early kara bosses dont have enrage timers, so if you take a little longer to get a boss down because of threat issues, then so be it. by the time having good TPS generation becomes an issue you should have enough better gear to make the difference.
Boss mobs have somewhere in the range of 9% Dodge/Block/Parry, and you have a 9% miss. You must be used to kitty DPS, tanks don't hit nearly as often. And it's an issue Warriors have, too, although they get some help from talents. Really, I wouldn't worry too much about hit rating. If you can get it, expertise is twice as good for tanking (since it helps with 2 types of boss avoidance). Even into SSC and TK, our bear tanks have very little hit rating, probably less than 50.
The only real important thing about +hit for tanks is that is reduces your chance to have a taunt resisted. There are a few cases where this can be an issue eg. bear boss in ZA. I have had a taunt resisted there but already had my finger hovering over challenging roar in case so it wasn't an issue. If on the next change, it resisted again, then it would have been nasty and probably a wipe.
The problem is, that to stack enough +Hit to make it worthwhile, you will have to sacrifice a LOT in other tanking stats - and this is just as likely, if not more likely to result in an odd wipe.
The problem is, that to stack enough +Hit to make it worthwhile, you will have to sacrifice a LOT in other tanking stats - and this is just as likely, if not more likely to result in an odd wipe.
::thinks:: I think I have about all of 17 hit on my tanking gear (close to 100 on my DPS set) and that's only because I have a few items I use in both sets. I've never really had any issue with threat generation in Kara.
I'm very lucky that my guild's tanks and off tanks for the various Kara teams are mostly Ferals (three feral druids, two prot warrior, and a prot pally). So the DPS is well aware how a druid works. ...Are you sure your DPS isn't jumping the gun? The tanking classes all work differently, if your team isn't use to a druid tank that could be the issue.
I'm very lucky that my guild's tanks and off tanks for the various Kara teams are mostly Ferals (three feral druids, two prot warrior, and a prot pally). So the DPS is well aware how a druid works. ...Are you sure your DPS isn't jumping the gun? The tanking classes all work differently, if your team isn't use to a druid tank that could be the issue.
1 post
Work on your CE rep.. at revered u get the +34 AP +16 Hit rating head enchant, and at exalted u get the ever-so famous Eartwarden, which has expertise in it.
If your having probles with uncrit, i would exchance the necklace of the deep for +def neck... Mark of the ravenguard from Auchidoun quest, or Strenght of the untamed, from once again CE revered. Then there is the scryer shoulder enchant for def and your wrists can be enchanted for def. Then gem for hit. Uncrit really isn't that hard to get.
If your having probles with uncrit, i would exchance the necklace of the deep for +def neck... Mark of the ravenguard from Auchidoun quest, or Strenght of the untamed, from once again CE revered. Then there is the scryer shoulder enchant for def and your wrists can be enchanted for def. Then gem for hit. Uncrit really isn't that hard to get.
The problem may not be a lack of hits, but rather a lack of damage on the hits that land. You state that you have some greens to replace, so maybe you are just not geared enough to keep up threat with the dps'ers. I never focused on hit or expertise while tanking kara, and never had any issues with threat. I think the only +hit i ever used back then was from boots of natural grace (+14 hit rating)
If you really feel you need to hit more often, you should try farming for shard of contempt from heroic magisters terrace. With 44 expertice rating and a chance on hit to increase AP by 230 it would do wonders for your threat generation.
If you really feel you need to hit more often, you should try farming for shard of contempt from heroic magisters terrace. With 44 expertice rating and a chance on hit to increase AP by 230 it would do wonders for your threat generation.
Scholar
38 posts
I'm a pretty experienced tank and I'd say +hit is one of those bonus stats that you should never actually gem/enchant/gear for, but sometimes you get a little here and there anyways... Your DPS should be watching to see if your first swing misses, and they should be watching their threatmeters to know when they can open up. If they let you get a solid head start, then they won't have to hold back once they actually start dps'n (are we talking bosses or trash here?). This is something you might want to mention at the beginning of any instance run - something like, "PLEASE: Only white hits and wanding until I hit 10k aggro, then you may open up yer can of whoopass. DPS: You pull it, you tank it."
I would recommend gemming/enchanting for more agility for +crits (and +dodge, +armor). Crits are like little rage/aggro orgasms. This is a good thing. Armory's showing me in dps gear right now so I can't tell you exactly what my hit rating's at in tank gear, but I'm fairly certain it's hardly more than what you have. Raid buffed, I have over 40% crit, and no one has pulled aggro off me in over a year (that might be a lil exaggeration, but you get the idea).
Lastly, I noticed a difference in my aggro generation when I picked up Earthwarden and slapped a +35 agi enchant on it. It's that good.
Good luck,
-B
I would recommend gemming/enchanting for more agility for +crits (and +dodge, +armor). Crits are like little rage/aggro orgasms. This is a good thing. Armory's showing me in dps gear right now so I can't tell you exactly what my hit rating's at in tank gear, but I'm fairly certain it's hardly more than what you have. Raid buffed, I have over 40% crit, and no one has pulled aggro off me in over a year (that might be a lil exaggeration, but you get the idea).
Lastly, I noticed a difference in my aggro generation when I picked up Earthwarden and slapped a +35 agi enchant on it. It's that good.
Good luck,
-B
Earthwarden for the expertise is a sure way to make your tps a little more steady. I'm also a fan of putting Glinting Noble Topaz (4agi/4hit) in any yellow slot that has a reasonable socket bonus on it. Finally, look at some PvP epics that would fit in your tanking set. Most of them have equal or better mitigation stats to the standard pre-Kara tanking kit, but also offer a lot more in threat generation from increased crit chance and attack power.
Thanks for all the replies. I'm definitely undergeared compared to the DPS, and I am probably slightly undergeared for starting Kara, but not by that much. I have enough defense to be uncrittable, I've got over 12k Health, over 22k armor, and about 24% dodge. In bear form, I've only got about 1000 AP and my crit rate is in the mid 20's (I can't remember exactly off the top of my head).
I'm well aware of how awesome expertise is, and how it should be favored over hit; however, I feel that hit is an often neglected tanking stat. I look at my ~9% miss rate, and see that I'm missing out on ~9% of my threat. So far I've chosen to socket +4 def/+6 stam gems in all my yellow sockets, and I'm wondering if I'd be better off with the +8 hit gems, or the +4hit/+4 agi gems.
I'm well aware of how awesome expertise is, and how it should be favored over hit; however, I feel that hit is an often neglected tanking stat. I look at my ~9% miss rate, and see that I'm missing out on ~9% of my threat. So far I've chosen to socket +4 def/+6 stam gems in all my yellow sockets, and I'm wondering if I'd be better off with the +8 hit gems, or the +4hit/+4 agi gems.
Romulo's Poison Vial is a decent TPS trinket. Whether or not you should equip it depends on what the rest of your gear is like....and the situation at hand. There are other trinkets that work better for most druids/situations, I'd think.
I have a feeling you're talking about trash mobs...
I've tanked every boss up to mother in BT. Bear tanks need every piece of tanking gear they can get. The only places I can see you getting any hit in is rings. Even then, I really would advise against it. Violet signet and Adal's signet are the best rings you can get there.
You also have to realize that tanking boss mobs is way different than tanking trash mobs. I would not worry too much about getting threat ripped from me on a trash mob. You're not a war, you cant spam devastate for crazy threat generation. But you have serious issues if that's happening on a boss. Bosses also hit pretty fast, so generating rage isnt an issue.
I've tanked every boss up to mother in BT. Bear tanks need every piece of tanking gear they can get. The only places I can see you getting any hit in is rings. Even then, I really would advise against it. Violet signet and Adal's signet are the best rings you can get there.
You also have to realize that tanking boss mobs is way different than tanking trash mobs. I would not worry too much about getting threat ripped from me on a trash mob. You're not a war, you cant spam devastate for crazy threat generation. But you have serious issues if that's happening on a boss. Bosses also hit pretty fast, so generating rage isnt an issue.
The general feeling I have gotten not just from druid tanks, but from all tanks in general is this:
HP is more important than hit because if you're dead you can't hit anything
Armor is more important than hit because if you don't mitigate damage your HP can't handle the damage and if you're dead you can't hit anything
Dodge/Crit are more important than hit because if you don't dodge 28%+ of the time and crit 26%+ of the time (for those aggro orgasms :-) ) then your armor has to mitigate extra damage and your HP might not be able to handle it and if you're dead you can't hit anything. You might also end up rage starved because you aren't critting as much to get that extra free rage from Primal Fury.
Crit immune is more important than hit because if the boss is critting you, then you better hope you HP is high enough and you healer is good enough, cause if you're dead you can't hit anything.
Hit is important last because we have so many instant ways to hold aggro (mangle, swipe, maul, FFF, Demoralizing Roar, challenging roar, taunt) that unless you are undergeared compared to your companions and/or the instance you should be fine on aggro.
With that said, if you can have all those covered then by all means stack expertise/hit. Hell why not hit more?
The 9% Miss rate/threat loss is made up for by the fact that you have enough hp/armor/dodge/crit to hold aggro and stay alive rather than hit a few extra times and die.
Feel free to critique. I love to learn
HP is more important than hit because if you're dead you can't hit anything
Armor is more important than hit because if you don't mitigate damage your HP can't handle the damage and if you're dead you can't hit anything
Dodge/Crit are more important than hit because if you don't dodge 28%+ of the time and crit 26%+ of the time (for those aggro orgasms :-) ) then your armor has to mitigate extra damage and your HP might not be able to handle it and if you're dead you can't hit anything. You might also end up rage starved because you aren't critting as much to get that extra free rage from Primal Fury.
Crit immune is more important than hit because if the boss is critting you, then you better hope you HP is high enough and you healer is good enough, cause if you're dead you can't hit anything.
Hit is important last because we have so many instant ways to hold aggro (mangle, swipe, maul, FFF, Demoralizing Roar, challenging roar, taunt) that unless you are undergeared compared to your companions and/or the instance you should be fine on aggro.
With that said, if you can have all those covered then by all means stack expertise/hit. Hell why not hit more?
The 9% Miss rate/threat loss is made up for by the fact that you have enough hp/armor/dodge/crit to hold aggro and stay alive rather than hit a few extra times and die.
Feel free to critique. I love to learn
Scholar
32 posts
I see what you were saying Galenmoon, but you could argue that hit could be better too.
Such as:
If you can't hit the mob, you won't have as much TPS, and some aggro-happy mage will find himself one-shotted, leading to a wipe.
And if you don't have enough +hit to keep up your aggro, then armor will be useless once you're little mage friend again...has aggro.
I think though that with crit and dodge you were right on... little bursts of threat and rage, and not dying.
Now I'm most definatly NOT saying that hit is better for tanking. I just was stating that if you CAN'T hit the mob, you CAN'T hold aggro as easily.
Such as:
If you can't hit the mob, you won't have as much TPS, and some aggro-happy mage will find himself one-shotted, leading to a wipe.
And if you don't have enough +hit to keep up your aggro, then armor will be useless once you're little mage friend again...has aggro.
I think though that with crit and dodge you were right on... little bursts of threat and rage, and not dying.
Now I'm most definatly NOT saying that hit is better for tanking. I just was stating that if you CAN'T hit the mob, you CAN'T hold aggro as easily.
It is very true that with more hits you will create more threat.
Let's take your 9% miss rate and look at it this way.
1 out of every 10 attacks is missing, on average. Could happen 4 in a row or 1 at a time. But at the same time unless you are in a rage starved encounter from being either overgeared for the instance or undergeared for crit, then you have several avenues to take when you miss
Say you miss on a Mangle, ok, well i'm going to make sure I have FFF (which I usually pull with) and Demoralizing howl up. Small threat I know, but some is better than none. I'm also going to
1) swipe if it won't break CC, which most times the way I face the mobs away from the CC I don't have a problem doing, or
2) I'm going to Maul. Now maybe Maul will take up the rest of my rage, but then I could always power shift if I had to, to get rage back up, but for me, 9 times out of 10, that maul + FFF + demoralizing howl is going to be enough threat for my DPS to at least get started and I can wait for rage to come back.
EDIT: I don't recommend power shifting with 3+ mobs on you, just saying it's a last ditch effort if everything is going to ****
(also I have noticed that swipe crits A LOT so when I'm low on rage I sometimes spam it 2-3 times to get extra rage)
(NOTE: I don't have Lacerate yet, but that would also be another avenue to take for keeping that aggro on you)
Now say both my mangle and my maul miss... well my swipe took in the other mobs because very rarely are all of them going to miss at the same time. So now I just have to worry about the one mob that it missed twice on.(presumably the Skull/First kill)
Since I tank with my back to the CC so that the mobs have to actually turn around to run to my party mates, I will know when one loses aggro(plus omen :-) ) and I will Taunt.
So basically unless EVERYTHING goes wrong then I shouldn't have any problem keeping aggro, even with my 9% miss rate. If you are not generating enough threat to hold 3 mobs at all times for a group 2-3 levels higher than you, then it gets into threat rotations and such.
It's a skill in the making and I have been tanking pretty much every instance from 19-63 with the exception of healing from time to time to show off feral "hybridness".
I know you said that you had planned on going Resto, but decided to try to fill the Offtank role for your guild. Does that mean that you had experience tanking runs previously on your way to 70? Or did you stay DPS/kitty form for the leveling and not really tank? I have found it's making a huge difference when I get to the more complex pulls of the OL that I had a lot of practice in DM, SM, ZF, Sunken Temple etc.. on my way to the OL.
Oh and let that dipsh*t mage die. He should know to watch his Omen if he's such a leet damage dealer and know that if the Threat doesn't spike for you, that you missed or had your attack dodged/parried. Taunt if you like the guy, if not, let him freeze it, which he will, and run away before you go and taunt it off him.
I had a group who watched me get my mangle dodged twice and my maul miss once before I got a clean hit on skull and just stood there and watched and waited. Course it was a guildy run heheh.
In the end, that 9% is not such a huge deal and mostly you only notice that you miss at all when you get that rare 2-4 misses/dodges/parries in a row. Most groups are going to understand if that happens and they pull aggro, especially when they see you running around like an idiot trying to get aggro back off everyone.
(Barkskin + tranquility = Instant super aggro)
Edited, Apr 19th 2008 2:17pm by Galenmoon
Let's take your 9% miss rate and look at it this way.
1 out of every 10 attacks is missing, on average. Could happen 4 in a row or 1 at a time. But at the same time unless you are in a rage starved encounter from being either overgeared for the instance or undergeared for crit, then you have several avenues to take when you miss
Say you miss on a Mangle, ok, well i'm going to make sure I have FFF (which I usually pull with) and Demoralizing howl up. Small threat I know, but some is better than none. I'm also going to
1) swipe if it won't break CC, which most times the way I face the mobs away from the CC I don't have a problem doing, or
2) I'm going to Maul. Now maybe Maul will take up the rest of my rage, but then I could always power shift if I had to, to get rage back up, but for me, 9 times out of 10, that maul + FFF + demoralizing howl is going to be enough threat for my DPS to at least get started and I can wait for rage to come back.
EDIT: I don't recommend power shifting with 3+ mobs on you, just saying it's a last ditch effort if everything is going to ****
(also I have noticed that swipe crits A LOT so when I'm low on rage I sometimes spam it 2-3 times to get extra rage)
(NOTE: I don't have Lacerate yet, but that would also be another avenue to take for keeping that aggro on you)
Now say both my mangle and my maul miss... well my swipe took in the other mobs because very rarely are all of them going to miss at the same time. So now I just have to worry about the one mob that it missed twice on.(presumably the Skull/First kill)
Since I tank with my back to the CC so that the mobs have to actually turn around to run to my party mates, I will know when one loses aggro(plus omen :-) ) and I will Taunt.
So basically unless EVERYTHING goes wrong then I shouldn't have any problem keeping aggro, even with my 9% miss rate. If you are not generating enough threat to hold 3 mobs at all times for a group 2-3 levels higher than you, then it gets into threat rotations and such.
It's a skill in the making and I have been tanking pretty much every instance from 19-63 with the exception of healing from time to time to show off feral "hybridness".
I know you said that you had planned on going Resto, but decided to try to fill the Offtank role for your guild. Does that mean that you had experience tanking runs previously on your way to 70? Or did you stay DPS/kitty form for the leveling and not really tank? I have found it's making a huge difference when I get to the more complex pulls of the OL that I had a lot of practice in DM, SM, ZF, Sunken Temple etc.. on my way to the OL.
Oh and let that dipsh*t mage die. He should know to watch his Omen if he's such a leet damage dealer and know that if the Threat doesn't spike for you, that you missed or had your attack dodged/parried. Taunt if you like the guy, if not, let him freeze it, which he will, and run away before you go and taunt it off him.
I had a group who watched me get my mangle dodged twice and my maul miss once before I got a clean hit on skull and just stood there and watched and waited. Course it was a guildy run heheh.
In the end, that 9% is not such a huge deal and mostly you only notice that you miss at all when you get that rare 2-4 misses/dodges/parries in a row. Most groups are going to understand if that happens and they pull aggro, especially when they see you running around like an idiot trying to get aggro back off everyone.
(Barkskin + tranquility = Instant super aggro)
Edited, Apr 19th 2008 2:17pm by Galenmoon
None of the pure DPS classes should ever have to "hold back". Warlocks can Soulshatter, Mages have Invisibility, Hunters can Feign Death, and Rogues have Vanish. Everyone needs to wait a few seconds at the beginning of a pull and during aggro dumps by the boss, but generally bear druids put out more TPS than Warriors or Paladins. The last time we killed Loot Reaver, we had a prot paly, a prot warrior, and a feral druid tank. Once the druid got aggro, he kept it through every punt.
And that's why I love tanking as a druid. We can generate so much rage being an offtank through our high damage that we can take over main tanking at any time and excel at it.
I've started tanking in the new shattered sun neck and shard of contempt. 16 hit rating and 21 expertise, meaning +1% to hit, but a massive -5% to be dodged or parried. Not to mention, every 45 seconds I get +100 expertise rating for 10 seconds (bumping my reduction to be dodged or parried up to around 11%) and +230AP for 20 seconds. I think I get a lot of bang for buck out of those two slots in terms of threat - assuming you dont need the mitigation of course. Don't forget that misses aren't the only way your TPS is being mitigated, and supposedly point for point expertise will increase your tps more than hit on anything that matters.
Edited, Apr 20th 2008 1:13am by Delekii
Edited, Apr 20th 2008 1:13am by Delekii
Scholar
37 posts
When pulling multiples from zero rage I like to use some of my mana to help generate threat. Wrath X/ Moonfire skull (or both on X then taunt skull) Bear taunt...then usual mangle+maul lead into rotation with swipes as necessary depending on group size. If your missing a lot and have cc on the rest of the mobs and can focus this all on skull...you start off with a lot of threat before your first bear attack and the dps people start in.
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