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Unsticky the "Mage FAQ"?Follow

#1 Apr 03 2008 at 11:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Unsticky the Mage FAQ?
Yes :44 (97.8%)
No :1 (2.2%)
Total:45


In the Mage FAQ, several people have called for it to be unstickied because it's horribly out of date and The Greatest Mage Post Ever covers most of it anyway.

So, thoughts? I want to hear from the mage community on this. Polling will be closed on Monday night and if the poll wishes, I'll ask an admin to remove it then.

Feel free to add any comments, questions, or concerns you have about this issue to this thread.

Edited, Apr 4th 2008 1:58am by Poldaran
#2 Apr 04 2008 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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The greatest mage post is also horribly outdated, someone must sacrifice himself to write a proper new mage sticky or all residents can write a bit.

I dont have time this weekend :P
Next weekend i do maybe. Im not in favor of spelling out all skills again though since it isnt good for readability and the skills speak for themselves anyway. So focusing on builds and gear (pre kara) consumables, gems and enchants.

Edited, Apr 4th 2008 11:23am by Sjans
#3 Apr 04 2008 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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Sjans wrote:
The greatest mage post is also horribly outdated


I just added some stuff to it about a week ago. I'll see if there's anything out of date I can notice.
#4 Apr 04 2008 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Ice veins and related builds arent in there, Improved blink changed, molten shields replaced imp fire ward, arcane fortitude changed.

Haste gems are OMGBBQROXRZ in PvP, what ive heard the regular PvPing mage stacks stamina, resilience and haste. (dont pin me down on it, its what i got from talking ingame, im not a PvPer myself)

Also tips like: hit cap in general, ghost hit, +int weapons items for evo.

If im commenting anyway:
I still personally think that frost isnt for raiding, at all. yes it can be done but if youre happily Kara geared and apply or want to be a SSC/TK guild with FSW youre going to get rejected / laughed at, ive seen it happen and people going though unnessary pain just bc they didnt know that FSW is total crap for PvE.

If youre explaining stuff to people who dont know, youd better make crystal clear whats min/max, 99% of the raiding guilds (again SSC/TK) operate this way. It isnt that clear in the guide/post since it accepts it as viable for PvE which it really isnt. Frost raid mage is even below moonkin, in my observations.

Edited, Apr 4th 2008 2:01pm by Sjans
#5 Apr 04 2008 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Speaking as someone currently levelling a mage, who wants to see information in the sticky that I need, I'd like to see the tips that sjan mentioned (especially ghost hit since I have no idea what that is), or simply links to different pages which may cover some of the information (i.e. for spell hit go to wowwiki.com's spell hit page) while other stuff be explained in the sticky.

Outlining all of the talents was IMO a waste of time for the most part (since it tells you the talent anyway), although descriptions of why they are or are not good could be useful to people new to the talent system, and if the sticky were to be redone I'd suggest using a talent calculator instead of listing out the talents. You can break apart the talents like before (i.e. "This is 40 arcane, pair it with 21 fire or frost") but it would cut down on space and be a lot easier to read IMO.

I'd personally rather see more descriptions of the specs in general. For example, when would someone want to choose arcane/fire over deep fire? Assuming equal gear, how much damage will a full frost, or an arcane/frost mage pump out in comparison with fire or arcane/fire?
#6 Apr 04 2008 at 5:22 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Outlining all of the talents was IMO a waste of time for the most part (since it tells you the talent anyway), although descriptions of why they are or are not good could be useful to people new to the talent system, and if the sticky were to be redone I'd suggest using a talent calculator instead of listing out the talents. You can break apart the talents like before (i.e. "This is 40 arcane, pair it with 21 fire or frost") but it would cut down on space and be a lot easier to read IMO.


As a casual player I find talent breakdowns very useful. It really isn't necessary to include the tooltip description. But a blurb about why it should (or should not) be taken is invaluable in my eyes. Some class FAQ's do a great in this area. The Shadow Priest FAQ even gives a rating on each talent depending on the area of play. This type of breakdown allows me to individualize a build to support my specific needs.

Talent calculators are nice...but sometimes I would like to know why I am placing X number of points in a talent.
#7 Apr 04 2008 at 5:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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skribs wrote:
Outlining all of the talents was IMO a waste of time for the most part


Oh I LOVE that section, and I hope it'll stay in the GMPE. I'm a casual player, I only very rarely group, will never raid, and I don't PVP. So my builds tend to need a little customization off the cookie cutters, just because I'm not your typical be-of-use-to-a-party player. That section really helped me plan out a build talent by talent, and I've never had to respec my mage yet because of it, because the trial-and-error was sort of already done for me, if that makes sense.

As to the poll, I voted to unsticky, because I think the Greatest Mage Post Ever is aptly named, and is probably all that's needed. It might be confusing for new folks to have two stickies with essentially the same purpose.


ETA: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Paladense said the exact same thing first.


Edited, Apr 4th 2008 9:38am by teacake
#8 Apr 04 2008 at 5:40 AM Rating: Good
I also voted to unsticky it. I know that Poldaran and I have access to edit the GPME.

If you feel that you have an addition/edit for it feel free to PM it to either myself or him and I'm sure we would be happy to edit it in there.

I don't have a ton of time to go through and re-do an entire FAQ (at least not right now) -- I would want to do it in one or two sittings so that new people don't get confused by it.
#9 Apr 04 2008 at 6:53 AM Rating: Good
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I voted yes because it is rather out of date. I looked at it the other day and did a double take when it started talking about the Magister Set :)

The GMPE is good, but could do with some updating to reflect talent changes/new gear (can't remember if there's a gear section in it though), also some parts could be more concise/user friendly as other people have put above.

Regarding 'ideal' specs for raiding, I do think it's worth making it clear what the cookie-cutter and FotM builds are for raiding, but I'd be wary of saying that something is completely unviable. And if you're going to raid as frost then the FSW is a good starting point (unless you want to jump straight into getting heroic/badge loot).

When I started raiding on my mage people were saying that frost was 'ok' for scraping through Kara, but once you get to 25 mans it has to be fire. I'm mid-way through SSC and only now looking at gear upgrades or a possibly respec because people are catching up and my top spot is under threat.

Possibly this weekend I'll be respeccing and paying Dr Boom a visit, last time I tried fire I was a little underwhelmed to say the least. I realise fire is technically the best spec, but frost can also work at least in early end-game.
#10 Apr 04 2008 at 7:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sjans wrote:
Ice veins and related builds arent in there,


That hasn't been done because I assumed Filter was working on it(I have a PM in my box from him discussing it). I thought it had been done by now.

Sjans wrote:
Improved blink changed, molten shields replaced imp fire ward, arcane fortitude changed.


Those have been in the game for a little over a week. I haven't had time to update them yet as it's been slammed at work. I'll get to em tonight if I can.

Sjans wrote:
Haste gems are OMGBBQROXRZ in PvP, what ive heard the regular PvPing mage stacks stamina, resilience and haste. (dont pin me down on it, its what i got from talking ingame, im not a PvPer myself)


You've heard it? Where? I haven't heard it(and it's hard to if you've only heard it from a couple people in game). I posted that up no more than a few weeks ago. I'm not a PvPer either and asked for feedback on PvP gems, but got one response. ONE. So I used the information I had and could find relating to gems. Mystical Skyfire Diamond has always been the best meta and gemming for haste makes it such that it's hard to get that meta. So I rated Haste gems secondary to damage because of that. I stated that they were good, but because of the metagem requirements damage might be a better choice.

Sjans wrote:
Also tips like: hit cap in general, ghost hit, +int weapons items for evo.


The sticky welcomes feedback, and I haven't seen any suggestions made there regarding any of these. As Anobix said, if someoen feels that there's something we should add, a PM to one of us or a post in the sticky thread would be the way to go.

Sjans wrote:
If im commenting anyway:
I still personally think that frost isnt for raiding, at all. yes it can be done but if youre happily Kara geared and apply or want to be a SSC/TK guild with FSW youre going to get rejected / laughed at, ive seen it happen and people going though unnessary pain just bc they didnt know that FSW is total crap for PvE.

If youre explaining stuff to people who dont know, youd better make crystal clear whats min/max, 99% of the raiding guilds (again SSC/TK) operate this way. It isnt that clear in the guide/post since it accepts it as viable for PvE which it really isnt. Frost raid mage is even below moonkin, in my observations.



First of all, you want that added, you talk to Filter. I'm not adding that kind of elitism. You're basing your beliefs about frost on your experiences. A well played frost mage can certainly outDPS a moonkin, in my experience, though mine is no more valid then yours. Fire is certainly better DPS, but frost isn't completely useless as you're implying.

And 99% of raiding guilds do not in fact operate this way. That's elitism to its core. I can name multiple guilds on my server alone who have cleared most or all of SSC/TK with frost mages in the guild/raid. These people are not maligned, harassed, nor berated.

But I digress. The GMPE is meant to give you the basics. Knowledge of talents themselves, how best to do whatever cockamamy thing it is you intend to do, stuff like that. General tips are useful, and I certainly have no problem adding them, but I will never make choices for someone. I will now and always have suggested that Fire is better for PvE and Frost is the clear choice for PvP. But I will not tell someone that they'll get laughed at when Apping to an SSC/TK guild as a frost mage, as it's just not the truth. SSC/TK guilds are a dime a dozen nowadays, and there's nowhere near that kind of elitism in these guilds.
#11 Apr 04 2008 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

First of all, you want that added, you talk to Filter.


This had me lol'd, thanks Pol! (you fluffy carebear ;))

Quote:
SSC/TK guilds are a dime a dozen nowadays, and there's nowhere near that kind of elitism in these guilds.


Hm i guess im on a "bad" server then. (Frostmane, EU)

Quote:
You've heard it? Where? I haven't heard it(and it's hard to if you've only heard it from a couple people in game).


Oh, guild talk/discussion whats best to gem for PvP, guildies seem knowledgable but as said i wouldnt give my life for it :P

Edited, Apr 4th 2008 5:35pm by Sjans
#12 Apr 04 2008 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
my server has close to 80 guilds who have downed something in either ssc or tk, 60 or more have killed multiple bosses in those places.
#13 Apr 07 2008 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
As one who has been considering rolling a Mage after not playing one for about a year... I think that both posts offer something different.
Specific thoughts:
If you would simply post your "which race" part in GMPE, that would eliminate the need for that part of the FAQ for the new people who think race matters in this game.
The FAQ links other guides rather than going too deep into detail. The AoE section comes to mind.
I'd still like to see somebody put together a basic cookie-cutter build to use while leveling. Just get it somewhere around 30, and the majority of people will be happy.

The FAQ is too old to be of any use today.
#14 Apr 07 2008 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
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The "Ayes" have it, it would seem. 34-1.

I'm off to put in the request.
#15 Apr 08 2008 at 12:20 AM Rating: Excellent
Sticky removed.
#16 Apr 08 2008 at 12:36 AM Rating: Good
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Wordaen, The Master of Disaster wrote:
Sticky removed.


Thanks Word.
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