i lurk here every now and then just to get more background info on rogues (and also on other classes). i have read here that combat swords is the preferred raid spec due to positioning not being a factor for high dps, you just have to follow a slice and dice rotation and you're set. i just wanted to confirm something else i was suspecting though.
one of the new recruits to my guild wanted to take his pally into kara, but at 1k healing bonus, i said no way, do more regular instances and gear up. so he QQ'd about it, then asked if he could bring his rogue.... 95 hit/27% crit/1500 AP and sub spec.
him: "i top damage in kara all the time"
me: "no offense, but even though my highest level rogue is only level 12, i still know it's basically combat swords or go home. not only that, but if you, a sub spec rogue, led dps in kara which is not friendly to melee dps, i'd say the hunters/mages/locks were all asleep"
him: "lol w/e dude"
him: "noob"
i had a strong urge to /gkick at this point, but then i found out the kid is 12 years old and felt bad. either way, was i right about what i said?
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sub rogue topping dps in kara?Follow
well its not really swords combat or gtfo, the others are just a fraction less. And if the playstyle of the person denotes their dps is greater than the dps they can achieve with combat swords [because of their style and such] and the DPS level itself is acceptable and pulls its own weight in kara.
Then why not.
But this fellow sounds like a moron.
What my guild does is have a test where if the player states he can do kara [spec doesnt come into question] and whose stats arent obviously underpowered. Than we have them for the first half till curator. If they prove their equipment, stats and more relevantly, skills are good enough [not to mention attitude, this can really come up in raids, where the bad apples keep asking about getting on to the next boss, that they really really need this loot, that he doesnt like using certain abilities, get killed rushing about, etc etc]
Then why not.
But this fellow sounds like a moron.
What my guild does is have a test where if the player states he can do kara [spec doesnt come into question] and whose stats arent obviously underpowered. Than we have them for the first half till curator. If they prove their equipment, stats and more relevantly, skills are good enough [not to mention attitude, this can really come up in raids, where the bad apples keep asking about getting on to the next boss, that they really really need this loot, that he doesnt like using certain abilities, get killed rushing about, etc etc]
Roguecraft 101 wrote:
Hemo specs involving Shadowstep, Cheat Death, Seal Fate, or Combat Potency are provably inferior to the two aforementioned specs, and should be avoided.
His dps meter might have shown him as highest dps before 2.4, as it would not have had any way to reliably gather data on any other dps.
Sub based rogues are by far inferior to combat based rogues, and you were correct.
However the debuff can be potentially useful in T4 level raids.
I still do heroics in my 20/0/41 PvP spec, but I have the gear to drag me along I guess...
16 posts
The difference between specs is not that big; it is small enough to be made up for with gear and skill. A sub rogue with better gear will still beat a combat rogue. It is only when the two specs are put head to head with equivalent gear that combat comes out on top, and still the sub rogue will be doing more than adaquete amounts of damage if he plays it right. It's not like a raid is going to fail solely because one rogue is in a below optimal spec, so no, your words were not really justified.
That said, I wouldn't want to bring a 12 year old along to a raid; you probably saved yourself a lot of hassle even if it was for the wrong reasons.
That said, I wouldn't want to bring a 12 year old along to a raid; you probably saved yourself a lot of hassle even if it was for the wrong reasons.
iamnotatree wrote:
The difference between specs is not that big; it is small enough to be made up for with gear and skill.
I was once with a ShS rogue fighting Void Reaver. I think he was using his PvP gear, because his miss rate was 33%! (that includes dodge). His DPS was way behind everybody, even though he probably had better weapons than the rest.
I think ShS rogue is the worst you can bring to a raid.
Combat swords is just the best of the combat builds. Combat is just great for PvE generally. And I guess maces for PvP.
So it's not a case of combat swords or nothing. I mean, I've heard of sub rogues that do well in Kara. Then again, there's retadins that do well in Kara. The sub-optimal specs and rotations really start to fall behind once you get to the later raids.
It's good that you told him that combat swords is better because, well, it's true, but maybe the fact that you'd just snubbed his pally made it look like you didn't want him in the raid. Telling him your rogue was level 12 didn't help. :/
So it's not a case of combat swords or nothing. I mean, I've heard of sub rogues that do well in Kara. Then again, there's retadins that do well in Kara. The sub-optimal specs and rotations really start to fall behind once you get to the later raids.
It's good that you told him that combat swords is better because, well, it's true, but maybe the fact that you'd just snubbed his pally made it look like you didn't want him in the raid. Telling him your rogue was level 12 didn't help. :/
Only 95 hit?!
Quote:
Only 95 hit?!
My thoughts exactly, I'd much rather have a Pally with 1k heals than a Rogue with 95 hit. Thats just him being gimped to all hell.
I myself am at 192 with only one piece of Kara gear.
Wytryszek wrote:
iamnotatree wrote:
The difference between specs is not that big; it is small enough to be made up for with gear and skill.
I was once with a ShS rogue fighting Void Reaver. I think he was using his PvP gear, because his miss rate was 33%! (that includes dodge). His DPS was way behind everybody, even though he probably had better weapons than the rest.
I think ShS rogue is the worst you can bring to a raid.
You need to amend that to read, "I think ShS rogue is the worst you can bring to a raid, unless his name is Korz, because Korz can put out 1200 DPS as ShS with Kara gear."
And yes, with 25 man buffs I did 1200 DPS on Tidewalker just to shut our rogues up when I said they were terrible for only doing 1100 DPS as combat swords with T5/6 gear.
It's Kara.
>.>
>.>
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Wytryszek wrote:
iamnotatree wrote:
The difference between specs is not that big; it is small enough to be made up for with gear and skill.
I was once with a ShS rogue fighting Void Reaver. I think he was using his PvP gear, because his miss rate was 33%! (that includes dodge). His DPS was way behind everybody, even though he probably had better weapons than the rest.
I think ShS rogue is the worst you can bring to a raid.
You need to amend that to read, "I think ShS rogue is the worst you can bring to a raid, unless his name is Korz, because Korz can put out 1200 DPS as ShS with Kara gear."
And yes, with 25 man buffs I did 1200 DPS on Tidewalker just to shut our rogues up when I said they were terrible for only doing 1100 DPS as combat swords with T5/6 gear.
LoL, seriously? How do they fail at basic rotations that badly?
That's ******* terrible.
GodOfMoo wrote:
Quote:
Only 95 hit?!
My thoughts exactly, I'd much rather have a Pally with 1k heals than a Rogue with 95 hit. Thats just him being gimped to all hell.
I myself am at 192 with only one piece of Kara gear.
Granted my hit and everything sucks, but I've also not run kara yet, and refuse to until I'm at least decently ready.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
You need to amend that to read, "I think ShS rogue is the worst you can bring to a raid, unless his name is Korz, because Korz can put out 1200 DPS as ShS with Kara gear."
Now, now, what are you exactly saying here? Is it that specs do not matter, and he can do 1200dps in any spec, or that he would do 1500dps if he specced combat (in Kara gear)?
I frankly doubt both, unless he is a dreanei and can triple-wield a weapon with his tail...
Scholar
23 posts
iamnotatree wrote:
The difference between specs is not that big;
The difference is that big. On monday our rogue CL, who is much much better geared than me, uses swords and so on, come to TK with his ShS pvp spec. On that run I had always 10% more dps than him, and I'm combat daggers... According to the Excels, if I was combat swords and with his equip I'd have done 20-25% more dps.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2008 12:20pm by Derozer
Since we don't know all the details about this kid's sub spec we have to make a few assumptions, for instance, that he picked up deadliness and sinister calling.
That means that he really has about 1320 AP and probably 25ish% crit as any other spec. Finally, the hit cap for special abilities is 142 if you don't have precision (63 if you do). Since he's not properly geared for shadow step (come on at least your specials should hit!) then at the very least he should be combat so his abysmal hit rating will at least allow him to use special abilities.
To be fair, most of the gear with +hit that you need to get you started drops in Kara so expecting him to have a rating much further than 100 is perhaps unfair. My guild's requirements back when I was a raider were: you had to be able to do more damage then the tank (unless you were a healer); you had to follow directions; you had to be in mostly blues except for maybe rings/trinkets. Those all seem to be reasonable things that anyone should be able to do. You could just take him along explain the rules to him coming, and if sucks at DPS (the tank beats him on damage) nicely tell him that he needs better gear before he can raid as subtlety and that until that happens if he wants to raid he has to spec combat. Then if he's still bad you could say "lol l2p nub" or if he's uncooperative /gkick him.
That means that he really has about 1320 AP and probably 25ish% crit as any other spec. Finally, the hit cap for special abilities is 142 if you don't have precision (63 if you do). Since he's not properly geared for shadow step (come on at least your specials should hit!) then at the very least he should be combat so his abysmal hit rating will at least allow him to use special abilities.
To be fair, most of the gear with +hit that you need to get you started drops in Kara so expecting him to have a rating much further than 100 is perhaps unfair. My guild's requirements back when I was a raider were: you had to be able to do more damage then the tank (unless you were a healer); you had to follow directions; you had to be in mostly blues except for maybe rings/trinkets. Those all seem to be reasonable things that anyone should be able to do. You could just take him along explain the rules to him coming, and if sucks at DPS (the tank beats him on damage) nicely tell him that he needs better gear before he can raid as subtlety and that until that happens if he wants to raid he has to spec combat. Then if he's still bad you could say "lol l2p nub" or if he's uncooperative /gkick him.
Yea, and the better your gear is the greater the difference gets.
Scholar
23 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
"I think ShS rogue is the worst you can bring to a raid, unless his name is Korz, because Korz can put out 1200 DPS as ShS with Kara gear."
I suppose NOT in Kara, NOT against Curator or Prince and NOT with only 10 man buffs...
Quote:
And yes, with 25 man buffs I did 1200 DPS on Tidewalker just to shut our rogues up when I said they were terrible for only doing 1100 DPS as combat swords with T5/6 gear.
I'm combat daggers, I have half T4, some blues, I don't have party buffs (no ferals, enh shammy, or fury warriors...), and I do 1000 dps on Moro... I hope that when I'll drop some decent swords I'll do more than 1100 DPS on a melee-easy fight like Morogrimn Tidefarter.
You will be doing more. Our guild's main rogue has horrible drop luck, and even with no TK/SSC gear, no DST, no survival hunter, no kitty, no enhance shammy, and no haste pots, and Dragonstrike/ZA offhand, was breaking 1100dps on Tidewalker.
Scholar
33 posts
Did Gruul a couple days ago as Shs, did a little over 700dps. When specced combat swords 19/42 I'm usually in the 1000-1100 area. Pretty gimp for PVE if you ask me... and thats with 279 hit unbuffed, so I can only imagine 95 hit...eww
FelRogue wrote:
Since we don't know all the details about this kid's sub spec we have to make a few assumptions, for instance, that he picked up deadliness and sinister calling.
That means that he really has about 1320 AP and probably 25ish% crit as any other spec. Finally, the hit cap for special abilities is 142 if you don't have precision (63 if you do). Since he's not properly geared for shadow step (come on at least your specials should hit!) then at the very least he should be combat so his abysmal hit rating will at least allow him to use special abilities.
To be fair, most of the gear with +hit that you need to get you started drops in Kara so expecting him to have a rating much further than 100 is perhaps unfair. My guild's requirements back when I was a raider were: you had to be able to do more damage then the tank (unless you were a healer); you had to follow directions; you had to be in mostly blues except for maybe rings/trinkets. Those all seem to be reasonable things that anyone should be able to do. You could just take him along explain the rules to him coming, and if sucks at DPS (the tank beats him on damage) nicely tell him that he needs better gear before he can raid as subtlety and that until that happens if he wants to raid he has to spec combat. Then if he's still bad you could say "lol l2p nub" or if he's uncooperative /gkick him.
That means that he really has about 1320 AP and probably 25ish% crit as any other spec. Finally, the hit cap for special abilities is 142 if you don't have precision (63 if you do). Since he's not properly geared for shadow step (come on at least your specials should hit!) then at the very least he should be combat so his abysmal hit rating will at least allow him to use special abilities.
To be fair, most of the gear with +hit that you need to get you started drops in Kara so expecting him to have a rating much further than 100 is perhaps unfair. My guild's requirements back when I was a raider were: you had to be able to do more damage then the tank (unless you were a healer); you had to follow directions; you had to be in mostly blues except for maybe rings/trinkets. Those all seem to be reasonable things that anyone should be able to do. You could just take him along explain the rules to him coming, and if sucks at DPS (the tank beats him on damage) nicely tell him that he needs better gear before he can raid as subtlety and that until that happens if he wants to raid he has to spec combat. Then if he's still bad you could say "lol l2p nub" or if he's uncooperative /gkick him.
Wrong, wrong, wrong!!! And did I mention WRONG!!!
You can VERY easily put together a set of gear with 250+ hit rating that doesn't gimp your AP or Crit% with only 1 drop from heroics and the rest quest and level 70 instance blues. Kara just gets you over the 300 hit rating while giving you substantial increases to both AP and Crit%.
Quote:
You can VERY easily put together a set of gear with 250+ hit rating that doesn't gimp your AP or Crit% with only 1 drop from heroics and the rest quest and level 70 instance blues. Kara just gets you over the 300 hit rating while giving you substantial increases to both AP and Crit%.
Anything specific you are referring to that is especially amazing? I'm at 182 or 207 depending on whether I'm using my Leggings of the Betrayed or my Fel Leather Leggings. And I'm pretty sure that I have everything I can get Pre-Kara except for stuff from Heroic MgT and the Belt from Heroic BM.
EDIT: Here is my armory if ya want to check me out http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Argent+Dawn&n=Lineli
Edited, Apr 2nd 2008 6:03pm by GodOfMoo
GodOfMoo wrote:
Quote:
You can VERY easily put together a set of gear with 250+ hit rating that doesn't gimp your AP or Crit% with only 1 drop from heroics and the rest quest and level 70 instance blues. Kara just gets you over the 300 hit rating while giving you substantial increases to both AP and Crit%.
Anything specific you are referring to that is especially amazing? I'm at 182 or 207 depending on whether I'm using my Leggings of the Betrayed or my Fel Leather Leggings. And I'm pretty sure that I have everything I can get Pre-Kara except for stuff from Heroic MgT and the Belt from Heroic BM.
I was curious about that myself, so I went a few pages back to find his pre-Kara gear list. It gets you to 271, but given that it includes 15 rare gems and specific instance drops, I'd have to question the "VERY easily" part, unless you have guildies on tap or you're masochistic enough to love PUGs.
Linky
Edit: Of course, 250 would be achievable without all those rare gems, which would certainly reduce the cost.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2008 6:08pm by zhaharik
Lots of combat daggers people here... I was under the impression that sub-daggers was better than combat daggers? I could be totally wrong. Just seems that sub makes up for daggers having lower per-ability damage with some big hits like ambush, whereas something like combat fists would blow combat daggers away because of higher per-strike damage combined with the 5% crit being better in basically every way?
Edited, Apr 2nd 2008 5:24pm by digitalcraft
Edited, Apr 2nd 2008 5:24pm by digitalcraft
No.
Combat daggers > Sub daggers
You can use ambush in a boss fight, once, twice or three times(ok maybe 4-5 if the fight is over 5-8 minutes and you have elusiveness). Whereas garrote isn't much worse. The important value is the sustained damage, and combat has also got many of the best raid talents. precision, combat potency and dual wield specialization are all superb.
More crit with daggers is a 5% overall increase in total damage against bosses as well.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2008 9:21pm by devzzz
Edited, Apr 2nd 2008 9:21pm by devzzz
Combat daggers > Sub daggers
You can use ambush in a boss fight, once, twice or three times(ok maybe 4-5 if the fight is over 5-8 minutes and you have elusiveness). Whereas garrote isn't much worse. The important value is the sustained damage, and combat has also got many of the best raid talents. precision, combat potency and dual wield specialization are all superb.
More crit with daggers is a 5% overall increase in total damage against bosses as well.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2008 9:21pm by devzzz
Edited, Apr 2nd 2008 9:21pm by devzzz
It's Kara.
Edited, Apr 2nd 2008 9:41pm by Gonzi
Edited, Apr 2nd 2008 9:41pm by Gonzi
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