The complexity is not comparable with Vashji.
You might compare it with Kael Phase 3&4 in terms of complexity, although this comparison is not good as Kael P3 is about DPS and 3&4 are about using the looted legendary weapons correct, all other things are rather simple in that fight.
Kalecegos is not a dps race, it is more a fight about surviving and comunicating.
If you are interested in it read on the boss tactics here.
The whole things gets complicated since you have to make sure that during the whole fight there must be a tank + two healers in every realm.
Furthermore everyone has to enter the deamon realm every 60-80 seconds. If he does not manage that, he gets killed by the arcane debuff (a 8 stack debuff ticks for 4.5k damage, at 10 stacks its 5.5k and so on).
You stay in the deamon realm for 60 seconds. You cannot go back early, and you cannot stay longer. Once back into the dragon realm you can not reenter the deamon realm for 60 seconds.
Once a player gets ported, a portal opens on his position which allows transition into the deamon realm (but you can't stand next to each other since everyone in range to the ported person (less than 5 yards away) gets 6k arcane damage which is further increased by your arcane damage debuff, thus you will get hit by ~6-10k damage)).
Once the portal is there you can go through it one by one (after one player is ported you have to wait 1-2 seconds for the next player to go through). You can get 5-6 players ported per portal.
The longer the fight goes, the more curses are flowing around. The curse ticks for low damage at start and doubles damage every 5 seconds. After 15 seconds it must be decursed or the player will likely die from 1k-3k damage ticks every second. If decursed, the curse does not go away, but hops to another player (and restarts there ticking for low damage again). At the end of the fight 4-5 decursers are decursing people nearly 100% of their time while 8-9 healers are trying to keep the whole raid alive.
All in all very interesting and demanding. But if 1-2 players get the port roation mixed up you loose. If more than 1-2 players die you'll likely wipe. If a course ticks for more than 15seconds the player has a good chance to die. If you are longer than 80 seconds in the dragon realm (e.g. you missed your portal), you will die.
If a healer does not make it through a portal, people in the deamon realm will die.
While Kael is a really demanding encounter it is a lot more forgiving. Everyone can loot the legendary weapons and everyone can buff/debuff people. If someone cannot manage to apply the dagger to mind controlled people, assign other players to it. Thus you have some leeway in that encounter.
Kalecgos in his current version requires a perfect execution of your tactic or you won't beat him. If a single group messes with the portals, or one player messes up you can not recover.
On the good side. It is a really entertaining and demanding fight and I hope once we have a bit more coordination and practice we will down him, and that will feel really great :-)
I only hope we make it during the next raid days before the boss gets nerfed.
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Ok, that sounds AWESOME!
So, you need any non german speaking not that well geared hunters in your guild? XD
So, you need any non german speaking not that well geared hunters in your guild? XD
Rostyr wrote:
I've been wondering a while now, I keep seeing people shouting "LF dps kara, NO pvp geared" does it matter if you're wearing pvp gear as long as you hit the hit/ap/crit demands?
The short answer is "no", it doesn't really matter as long as your conditions are met. The long answer is "yes", there are additional factors which make some people/guilds exclude those in PvP gear.
Here are a few:
If you're in a lot of PvP gear, the fair assumption is that you do a lot of PvP, more so than PvE, as proven by the fact that you've collected better PvP gear than PvE gear.
- If you haven't played enough PvE to learn how to play in a group Instance, you're a possible liability to any raid. PvP takes nearly no teamwork. This could be debated, but the teamwork required for PvE content is technical and requires many different approaches to bring success. In PvP a hammer always works.
- In PvP a Hunter often places his Pet on Aggro, and doesn't have to manage it carefully. In a raid this is very poor practice. Pet management skills are gained in PvE play.
If you're in PvP gear, that same time committed to PvP play may mean that you are more likely to come unprepared to a raid.
- How can you farm for the gold needed to buy your consumables if you're always in a BG? And PvP players rarely use consumables, since death is frequent and fairly random. In PvE raids players are expected to bring and use consumables without being asked.
- What kind of arrows/bullets are you bringing to the raid? If you're always in a BG and your PvP set is better than your PvE set it's unlikely that you've got the reputation necessary to bring along better ammo.
And then there is the whole issue of distribution of stats on PvP gear.
- A Hunter in PvP gear is going to crit a lot. Crits are great, sort of. If you crit a lot you have a greater probability of pulling aggro a lot. Pulling aggro is a bad thing, and can wipe your raid even if you FD immediately, just by moving the Boss out of the carefully organized position it was maneuvered into.
- And you're lacking in INT and MP/5. So you'll either need to be drinking a lot of mana pots (see above for consumables) or you'll run out of mana in any long fight and your DPS will drop dramatically.
So to sum up, it's completely possible that a PvP equipped player will be a valuable participant in a raid. But there are a lot of ways in which wearing PvP gear indicates that this may not be the case. I can completely understand why any group of 9 people may prefer a 10th who has the same background as they do, rather than a 10th who runs so many BGs that their PvP gear is better than their PvE gear.
Aethien wrote:
Ok, that sounds AWESOME!
So, you need any non german speaking not that well geared hunters in your guild? XD
So, you need any non german speaking not that well geared hunters in your guild? XD
I'd love to have you in my guild and actually that would work as I am the guild leader and you can never have too many experienced hunters in a guild :-)
For the raid group with which I raid, things look a lot different however :-)
Of course you are just joking, but I don't think we could integrate someone who does not speak german and of course we are full on hunters and most other classes (priests somehow are very rare in our raid group).
On a sidenote: Is it common that raid groups are not bound to a guild?
My raidgroup does not require membership in a guild to attend raid or become full member. The raid group has a guild and ~50-60% of the raid group members are also members of the guild, but that is neither required nor strongly encouraged (I was never asked to even join the guild although they'd invite me since I'm a member of the raid).
We have quite a few of those non-guild-bound raid groups on my server but somehow only one of them has advanced beyond SSC/TK content (although some of them are now starting with MH/BT after the attunment requirements got removed).
Well.... i've never seen any.... nor heard of any besides yours.
My guild does cooperate with another guild on the server, but those guys are ex guildies who just raid 10 mans.
And my previous guild had a hardcore and a casual raidgroup.
But i dont think what you're in is common, at least not as far as i know :P
My guild does cooperate with another guild on the server, but those guys are ex guildies who just raid 10 mans.
And my previous guild had a hardcore and a casual raidgroup.
But i dont think what you're in is common, at least not as far as i know :P
Kompera wrote:
<Snip> Really good post! </Snip>
Eloquently put and well reasoned. I would only point out a couple of things I noticed:
If we are talking just Kara here, that's where beginners should be getting their Raid experience, right? So, while I agree with Kompera why someone might want a non-pvp geared 10th, it's Kara. If you have 9 people that are geared to death and want a fast run, then you would post "LF1M Kara, need DPS, extensive Kara experience a must". You might then get a Kara pro who's just trying to get some PvE gear on a PvP toon. Or, more likely, you'll get a seasoned Kara player with a toon in mostly PvE gear, which is what you want.
Another thing is that there are a couple of kinds of PvP going on. BG's like AV require only a little teamwork and just good communication. WSG and AB can require intense teamwork to win because these BG's tend to be dominated by premade, common group (guild, etc.) players. While true, even the losers get rewards, same could be said for losing raids. You still get stuff.
Arena's require intense teamwork to win, no matter the group number. The winning teams work and practice and unlike Raids where timing can be everything, you cannot predict what the opposing team will do, therefore there is no set 'script' you can practice at and once perfected, pretty much always win. Two incredible teams can really come up with some seriously cool fights. The tactics and even luck may dictate the winner, which is something shared with PvE Raids, tactics and luck may dictate victory or not. Again, you still get stuff for losing but it takes much longer to get stuff while losing than while winning. You also have to be a glutton for punishment (like me) to keep throwing yourself at the meat grinder while you learn, but learn you will. In think PvP and PvE share more in common than they differ since the game mechanics are basically the same.
So, I'd agree with Kompera's take for anything after Kara, it would make sense that PvP gear should be in the minority there and the only PvP stuff should be good crossover stuff. Kara has enough good PvE stuff in it to prep for the next Raid levels from what most say around here. A group might still be able to carry a slightly undergeared toon but not much of one, I know I wouldn't try it unless I was comfortable with running Kara regularly and had all the gear I needed to advance.
For Kara though, like I mentioned, people need to start somewhere and even if it's a PvP players first time through it, if they can do the teamwork to do Arena properly and some BG's well, then they can probably learn the timings and stuff for Kara. The group just needs to be willing to accept a Raid newbie and understand the need for teaching. If they don't want a new person, then they should say so in the advert for the PUG. I find it's just easier to say what you actually want rather than it would be to make assumptions based on gear. If you find your 10th lacking in necessary skill (no matter what the gear) and/or willingness to work with the group, then BOOT and readvert. Sucks, but that's the nature of PUG's in my experience.
Perhaps I'm too optimistic and maybe gear is where the line should be drawn, even for Kara. I just wonder how a player would switch from being good at PvP in great gear and wanting to switch to PvE. Would they have to downgrade their gear to weaker PvE stuff? I dunno, it's a wierd concept. I think it would be more 'optimal' to take better PvP stuff into Kara and get good PvE stuff there than take weaker PvE blues, that's just me though, and I don't have the Raid experience to know if good PvP gear truly sucks even in Kara.
sloshot wrote:
Kompera wrote:
<Snip> Really good post! </Snip>
Eloquently put and well reasoned. I would only point out a couple of things I noticed:
[snippage]
[...] even the losers [in BGs and Arenas] get rewards, same could be said for losing raids. You still get stuff.
If I'm in a losing BG, I get some amount of Honor and a single mark. If I'm on a losing Arena team I still get Arena points at the end of the week. Sooner or later, suck or excel, I'll get my PvP Epics. This is the entire reason many players call PvP Epics "charity epics". With the Arena seasons Blizzard has provided a way for players to get Epics, and in many cases very decent Epics, while still failing to meet any set bar other than participation.
Don't think I'm knocking this. I'm on three losing Arena teams. I'd like to think that I'm one of the better players on those teams, but all members are RL friends and playing together is more important to us than winning. We get together, craft our careful plans, and laugh while we're slaughtered again and again. We just reformed our 5v5 this week, as we were riding at a 1000 rating and by the numbers reforming earned us 200 more Arena points this week for our 0-10 showing than carrying on with the old team would have.
I'm now using the S3 helm as my PvE helm, and I've got the S3 hands and Vindicator's boots, belt, wrist, and ring as PvP pieces (I've got much better PvE pieces in all of those slots). And I could have all that while never winning a single BG or Arena. I'm far more interested in PvE play, but I've still managed to make a halfway decent PvP set while being on losing Arena teams. (In BGs I tend to lead the charts, as long as I'm not forced to defend a resource no one else will, but whatever.)
Now in contrast you ended your sentence above by saying that in a losing raid you "still get stuff." I disagree. Please point out to me the raid Boss that drops loot if you fail to kill it. I've been in all of the T4 and T5 raids and haven't run across a Boss that drops loot without a kill yet. My Guild bashed its head in against Al'ar last night without killing him, and all I got was the need to replenish my Fel Mana potions and a Relentless Assault Flask, a stack of Pet food and stat food for myself, plus a quiver full of Mysterious Arrows expended and a decent sized repair bill. I probably spent between 75-100G on last evening's attempts on Al'ar, but as I say to any guildies who complain about such things, there is no free ride. Raid Epics are not free, they cost the same or more than any world drop Epic you might find on the AH. The only difference is that you have enjoyed the experience of taking down a difficult Boss with a group of your friends, as opposed to placing a bid with gold that you ground up solo. But you never see an Epic drop in a raid without killing a Boss.
And there lies another difference I didn't cover in my previous post: PvP Epics don't indicate anything about the wearer other than persistence.
There is no skill attached by default. A PvE player can be carried by his Guild and have the same apply, but that requires the forbearance of 24 other people, and a certain mindset amongst the Officers which is rare in the larger and more progressed Guilds. Yes, there are raid equipped players who suck. But if they really suck they tend to reach a 'Peter principle' point at which no one is willing to carry them any further and they get kicked. The PvP player can simply run more losing Arena matches the next week, and run losing BGs all weekend long, and will still earn Honor and Arena points with which he can buy more PvP Epics.
This topic just wont die. For SSC and below, you will be fine in all pvp gear, we have a hunter that we take to ssc in full pvp gear, and can still place top 5 dps, so to say that you cant raid in pvp gear is not true. If you have the mana/hit, then wear the pvp gear. Unfortunately for hunters, depending on spec, the pvp gear is superior to the t-4/t5 gear, the s2 shoulders come to mind for instance. I think from all the other PVP vs PVE gear threads, the common outcome is: If it is an upgrade, wear it.
That is true Kompera, but do you just run from boss to boss in Raids?
It was my understanding that there were mobs that dropped decent gear or items you could turn in for more 'stuff'. I could be wrong. I know the bosses drop the best stuff.
I also understand that some bosses are easier to kill than others and they still drop good stuff. So while you may fail to finish out Kara, you can go X number of bosses in relatively easy and get 'stuff'. I was being non-specific for a reason and referring to losing on later bosses.
Yes, PvP will eventually give you things, but generally you have to die a lot for it. And the point of contention was really not about the stuff but about the teamwork it DOES require to even PvP right and that said teamwork should easily port over to PvE Raid.
I don't want this to be PvP vs. PvE, I don't think one way of playing is superior to the other. I'm not knocking PvE'ers and I want to PvE Raid sometime myself.
The issue at stake is whether or not it's justified to keep a player out of Kara just because they have some PvP gear on. I have, for the last several posts, tried to put forward the idea that when you advertise for a PUG (Raid, BG, instance or whatever), SAY what you really mean, what constraints you really want. If you are looking for a Kara raid and you don't want newbies- say that. Don't judge a newbie based on gear. Sometimes you could be right, sometimes you could be wrong. If you are suspicious, put them to the test. But always- be polite.
It was my understanding that there were mobs that dropped decent gear or items you could turn in for more 'stuff'. I could be wrong. I know the bosses drop the best stuff.
I also understand that some bosses are easier to kill than others and they still drop good stuff. So while you may fail to finish out Kara, you can go X number of bosses in relatively easy and get 'stuff'. I was being non-specific for a reason and referring to losing on later bosses.
Yes, PvP will eventually give you things, but generally you have to die a lot for it. And the point of contention was really not about the stuff but about the teamwork it DOES require to even PvP right and that said teamwork should easily port over to PvE Raid.
I don't want this to be PvP vs. PvE, I don't think one way of playing is superior to the other. I'm not knocking PvE'ers and I want to PvE Raid sometime myself.
The issue at stake is whether or not it's justified to keep a player out of Kara just because they have some PvP gear on. I have, for the last several posts, tried to put forward the idea that when you advertise for a PUG (Raid, BG, instance or whatever), SAY what you really mean, what constraints you really want. If you are looking for a Kara raid and you don't want newbies- say that. Don't judge a newbie based on gear. Sometimes you could be right, sometimes you could be wrong. If you are suspicious, put them to the test. But always- be polite.
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