I've been wondering a while now, I keep seeing people shouting "LF dps kara, NO pvp geared" does it matter if you're wearing pvp gear as long as you hit the hit/ap/crit demands?
thanks for any replies
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PVP gear in raidsFollow
you can get 142 hit rating from pvp gear?
17 posts
im not saying complete vindicator / full s1/s2/s3 im talking about say 3/5 s1 and a ring or something. I got turned down for having 3/5 s1 and a "pvp bow" which was valanos -.-
There is pvp gear that you can use til t6. Rings, bracers, boots, etc. Some people are just very ignorant about the game.
It is rarely optimal, but it will work. I've got two pieces of S1, shoulders and pants. Though, to be fair, I only got those because they were better for survival than the others that I had.
pre-raid sticky wrote:
NOTE:
- PvP gear isnt optimal and I wouldnt get more then a few pieces.
Same goes for Leather gear as that usually misses out on int and Mp5.
- PvP gear isnt optimal and I wouldnt get more then a few pieces.
Same goes for Leather gear as that usually misses out on int and Mp5.
Edited, Mar 30th 2008 10:11pm by Aethien
It also depends on the PvP gear.
I have the S3 Axe and the S3 gloves. Definite upgrades for me. The axe is arguably the best 2h in the game for hunters. S1 gear is pretty weak by comparison though. S2 is marginal.
I always thought Kara was the 'easiest' of the Raids to do and if they aren't allowing any PvP gear at all in there I'd question the flexibility and experience of the raid leader or raid group and skip it.
The common belief is that PvP gear is a hinderance to Raiding and I'm not going to challenge that directly. I have yet to see any WoWstats to suggest S3 gear isn't capable of raiding but it would probably depend on what the rest of raid is equipped with and what you are mixing in to offset its weaknesses. If they were already supporting low PvP geared toons then they might be at their max of them.
Many raid groups claim to have run successfully through Kara toting PvP equipped toons. I'd guess the Raid can't handle a lot of them, but 1 or 2 might be fine if you have some good Raid equipped toons to balance them out. That's up to the Raid leaders though.
It sounds, in all the arguments I've read, like it comes down to the Raid Bosses. I'd feel that if you can hold your own in dps and do your job, it wouldn't matter what the gear was as long as whatever combination of gear types you had worked well enough to do DPS and your role. Some will argue that it's impossible for PvP gear to do that, they might be right, but again, I haven't seen any concrete evidence to support it, just theorycraft. I'd rather have a skilled player in PvP gear than a mediocre one in Raid gear. It's likely the skilled player will save you more often than his gear would kill you. That's just me though.
I know some players keep two sets of gear, but the PvP gear is easier to get to start and you can't get the Raid gear unless someone lets you in on the Raids with your PvP gear... so keeping people out of Kara raids due to PvP gear makes no sense at least on the transition level. Everyone has to start someplace... and S3 gear doesn't suck. Better than almost all 'pre-raid' blues I've seen...
With the 2.4 mana regen changes though, it might make it worse for Raiding... gems or secondary gear pieces might counter some of the MP5 & +hit issues though. In the end, it's up to the Raid leaders and the makeup of the raid group. Some PvP gear shouldn't hurt at all, like the S3 Axe, or several of the S3 items, lower grade PvP gear, S2 stuff can do okay until you get more raid gear... if the group can support the lower grade gear on your toon, if they can't, you're a liability. I'd stay away from almost any S1 stuff. It gets laughed at since several blues actually do better than those 'purples'.
I'd be wary of any blanket "No PvP gear" groups. They might not have the skill or ability to support you. They probably mean what they say and just aren't good enough to handle any PvP geared toons or are maxxed out on PvP toons already. Just remember, you can't get raid gear until you raid, and this is understood by most raid leaders so you'll likely find some group to take you along as long as you learn to pull your own weight in the group and work on getting the gear to do it.
It's my belief that a good Raid leader should look at your characters gear as a whole and avoid blanket statements, all within the context of the Raid group. They might even test your skill in a duel or give you a knowledge test to see if you've raided before. If you do well, a regular raid group will likely invite you back.
P.S. I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but Resillience also reduces Mana Drains now with 2.4. So, it might help to have resillience gear on if a boss or mob does mana drains. I don't know if any Kara bosses or mobs do that though. This is in addition to its crit resistance. That might help a hunter out a bit if there are mana suckers out there. I know it reduces my Viper sting on casters in PvP now... makes that shot even more worthless.
I have the S3 Axe and the S3 gloves. Definite upgrades for me. The axe is arguably the best 2h in the game for hunters. S1 gear is pretty weak by comparison though. S2 is marginal.
I always thought Kara was the 'easiest' of the Raids to do and if they aren't allowing any PvP gear at all in there I'd question the flexibility and experience of the raid leader or raid group and skip it.
The common belief is that PvP gear is a hinderance to Raiding and I'm not going to challenge that directly. I have yet to see any WoWstats to suggest S3 gear isn't capable of raiding but it would probably depend on what the rest of raid is equipped with and what you are mixing in to offset its weaknesses. If they were already supporting low PvP geared toons then they might be at their max of them.
Many raid groups claim to have run successfully through Kara toting PvP equipped toons. I'd guess the Raid can't handle a lot of them, but 1 or 2 might be fine if you have some good Raid equipped toons to balance them out. That's up to the Raid leaders though.
It sounds, in all the arguments I've read, like it comes down to the Raid Bosses. I'd feel that if you can hold your own in dps and do your job, it wouldn't matter what the gear was as long as whatever combination of gear types you had worked well enough to do DPS and your role. Some will argue that it's impossible for PvP gear to do that, they might be right, but again, I haven't seen any concrete evidence to support it, just theorycraft. I'd rather have a skilled player in PvP gear than a mediocre one in Raid gear. It's likely the skilled player will save you more often than his gear would kill you. That's just me though.
I know some players keep two sets of gear, but the PvP gear is easier to get to start and you can't get the Raid gear unless someone lets you in on the Raids with your PvP gear... so keeping people out of Kara raids due to PvP gear makes no sense at least on the transition level. Everyone has to start someplace... and S3 gear doesn't suck. Better than almost all 'pre-raid' blues I've seen...
With the 2.4 mana regen changes though, it might make it worse for Raiding... gems or secondary gear pieces might counter some of the MP5 & +hit issues though. In the end, it's up to the Raid leaders and the makeup of the raid group. Some PvP gear shouldn't hurt at all, like the S3 Axe, or several of the S3 items, lower grade PvP gear, S2 stuff can do okay until you get more raid gear... if the group can support the lower grade gear on your toon, if they can't, you're a liability. I'd stay away from almost any S1 stuff. It gets laughed at since several blues actually do better than those 'purples'.
I'd be wary of any blanket "No PvP gear" groups. They might not have the skill or ability to support you. They probably mean what they say and just aren't good enough to handle any PvP geared toons or are maxxed out on PvP toons already. Just remember, you can't get raid gear until you raid, and this is understood by most raid leaders so you'll likely find some group to take you along as long as you learn to pull your own weight in the group and work on getting the gear to do it.
It's my belief that a good Raid leader should look at your characters gear as a whole and avoid blanket statements, all within the context of the Raid group. They might even test your skill in a duel or give you a knowledge test to see if you've raided before. If you do well, a regular raid group will likely invite you back.
P.S. I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but Resillience also reduces Mana Drains now with 2.4. So, it might help to have resillience gear on if a boss or mob does mana drains. I don't know if any Kara bosses or mobs do that though. This is in addition to its crit resistance. That might help a hunter out a bit if there are mana suckers out there. I know it reduces my Viper sting on casters in PvP now... makes that shot even more worthless.
The reason S3 is viable in pvp is due to the way higher Itemlevel of the gear compared to anything else you can get at that point in PvE.
But even then PvP gear lacks in intellect, attack power and hit.
Even vs ordinary lvl 70ish blues, while in karazhan this wont be an issue.
However once you start running into 8-10(+) minute bossfights where full PvE geared hunters go OoM PvP gear starts to get very visible drawbacks.
Ofcourse there are exeptions, there always will be some.
The S3 axe is simply awesome for any non SV hunter and the S3 helm is equal to if not better then the T5 helm.
(not to mention insanely much easier to get)
Once again though, this is purely due to the higher itemlevel.
The same way T5/6 gear was insane in season 1/early S2 arena, because its just that much more powerful that it can jump the gap between pve and pvp gear.
equal lvl PvP vs PvE gear PvE gear is always better for PvE and vice versa.
edit: i think this describes it kind of well...
Edited, Mar 31st 2008 8:20pm by Aethien
But even then PvP gear lacks in intellect, attack power and hit.
Even vs ordinary lvl 70ish blues, while in karazhan this wont be an issue.
However once you start running into 8-10(+) minute bossfights where full PvE geared hunters go OoM PvP gear starts to get very visible drawbacks.
Ofcourse there are exeptions, there always will be some.
The S3 axe is simply awesome for any non SV hunter and the S3 helm is equal to if not better then the T5 helm.
(not to mention insanely much easier to get)
Once again though, this is purely due to the higher itemlevel.
The same way T5/6 gear was insane in season 1/early S2 arena, because its just that much more powerful that it can jump the gap between pve and pvp gear.
equal lvl PvP vs PvE gear PvE gear is always better for PvE and vice versa.
edit: i think this describes it kind of well...
Edited, Mar 31st 2008 8:20pm by Aethien
Its Kara, a few pvp pieces won't kill the group :P
That being said, if you're using V.bow, get the PvP honor bow. Way higher DPS.
That being said, if you're using V.bow, get the PvP honor bow. Way higher DPS.
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Its Kara, a few pvp pieces won't kill the group :P
That being said, if you're using V.bow, get the PvP honor bow. Way higher DPS.
That being said, if you're using V.bow, get the PvP honor bow. Way higher DPS.
Welcome to the wonderful world of hunter mechanics!
The place where weapon dps isnt important, where stats dont matter and where we are forced to use 1 weaponspeed or as close to it as we can get.
a.k.a the weaponspeed that fits best for the optimal shotrotation is the best weapon.
for BM that is (unaltered by haste from items) a 2.6 speed weapon making Bloodwarder Rifle (a questgun! :O) the best pre-raid gun out there.
For MM/SV that is a 2.9 speed weapon (unaltered by haste from items once again)
Any other speed will either cause clipping of autoshots leading to a loss of dps from the weapon, dead space leading to a lower amount of shots fired and thus lower dps or requires a load of hasteto correct to a good time.
And then i havent even started on the fact that your latency also affects your shotrotation.
Oh goodie!
Quote:
you can get 142 hit rating from pvp gear?
LOL the complete t4 set gives a whopping 15 to hit... so most of your hit is gonna come from rings/trinket/gems, non set items.
So the only real thing to worry about is intellect, if you dont go oom, then wear it.
Attack Power too actually, PvP gear seriously lacks that (even though its good in arena's with resillience and all /rolleyes
Aethien wrote:
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Its Kara, a few pvp pieces won't kill the group :P
That being said, if you're using V.bow, get the PvP honor bow. Way higher DPS.
That being said, if you're using V.bow, get the PvP honor bow. Way higher DPS.
Welcome to the wonderful world of hunter mechanics!
The place where weapon dps isnt important, where stats dont matter and where we are forced to use 1 weaponspeed or as close to it as we can get.
a.k.a the weaponspeed that fits best for the optimal shotrotation is the best weapon.
for BM that is (unaltered by haste from items) a 2.6 speed weapon making Bloodwarder Rifle (a questgun! :O) the best pre-raid gun out there.
For MM/SV that is a 2.9 speed weapon (unaltered by haste from items once again)
Any other speed will either cause clipping of autoshots leading to a loss of dps from the weapon, dead space leading to a lower amount of shots fired and thus lower dps or requires a load of hasteto correct to a good time.
And then i havent even started on the fact that your latency also affects your shotrotation.
Oh goodie!
3:2 shot rotation
Point is anyways, V. bow kinda sucks. If the quest bow is better that's fine, but the gladiator's bow is also better, and running BGs isn't difficult. Its 16dps higher than the V. bow.
Edited, Mar 31st 2008 1:49pm by digitalcraft
Aethien wrote:
equal lvl PvP vs PvE gear PvE gear is always better for PvE and vice versa.
emphasis added by me
This is what I was having problems with in the OP's post. Absolutes should be avoided when they aren't actually absolute.
Aethien, you were pretty much on target with what I was saying until that last part. I agree with you to a certain point, but that "always better" is not "always", as you said to start "there will always be exceptions" (perhaps that should have been phrased "There are currently exceptions"- again, leaving out the "always".)
My disagreement with what was being said is the concept of "No PvP gear allowed" - as an absolute based on bias. I'm okay with it when it's based on group makeup, being full of toons that the group is already 'carrying', or on lack of group skill/experience.
I agree with you that for the most part, PvE gear is best for PvE and PvP for PvP. There are pieces on both sides that work well in either side. Weapons sometimes cross over well because their bonuses just aren't high enough to really matter one way or the other. That's changing as the weapons start carrying more and more powerful bonuses. Any item group that doesn't carry much on it generally tends to be able to transfer over well. Now with gems and incoming runes and such, it will make that even more of a wash as the gems and runes let you build the item into what you need it to be in relation to your other gear. We might start to see balanced toons that can do both PvP and PvE well enough with one gear configuration. They probably won't be awesome at either, but good enough at both.
Some gear is not optimal, as has been said, but I'm putting forth the idea that even non-optimal can be effective enough if the group can support it. How else do you get your Raid gear?
It doesn't make sense to kick someone just because they have some PvP pieces on them. It should depend on the quality and efficacy of the PvP pieces. An all S1 geared toon would be a loadstone to a Raid and the group would have to know going in that they will be carrying that person along for the ride, something a guild would likely do, I wouldn't expect it out of a PUG.
A mix of PvP pieces which are better than much of the stuff listed in the Pre-Raid gear list shouldn't kill the raid group that much if it isn't a bunch of new raiders all in odd gear. Then they will just be in for a learning experience.
Again, a wise and seasoned Raid leader should know what the group can handle and what it can't. If it can't handle any PvP geared people then players like the OP should stay away from the group anyway. If they can handle such, then perhaps the advertisement should stipulate that. "LFM Kara, need DPS, gear requires approval." No absolutes, just an invite that lets folks know their gear will be scrutinized.
sloshot wrote:
Aethien wrote:
equal lvl PvP vs PvE gear PvE gear is always better for PvE and vice versa.
emphasis added by me
This is what I was having problems with in the OP's post. Absolutes should be avoided when they aren't actually absolute.
Aethien, you were pretty much on target with what I was saying until that last part. I agree with you to a certain point, but that "always better" is not "always", as you said to start "there will always be exceptions" (perhaps that should have been phrased "There are currently exceptions"- again, leaving out the "always".)
A piece of pvp gear of Itemlvl 150 will always be better for PvP and worse for PvE then a piece of PvE gea of Itemlvl 150.
Blizzard did quite a good job at separating PvE and PvP gear.
Edited, Mar 31st 2008 11:03pm by Aethien
Not so sure of that.
There isn't always an equivalent piece of gear and sometimes Blizz does mess up in equivalency even at the same level. Mini-maxing from theorycraft generally finds one piece of gear a bit ahead in some way from an equivalent piece at the same level. The difference may be small but it may be large. If it's too big, the one item gets ignored and the other is had by eveyone. For most items it's fairly small and not worth bothering, so agreed, Blizz has done a good job keeping most things approximately equal between PvP and PvE.
PvP and PvE, while I agree they did a good job of separating them, are not always mutually exclusive. Hybridizing is often desireable, and the degree of that depends on the players needs as well as level and gear availability.
I would probably toss out the idea that hybrids of gear are more common than pure gear profiles. I can't back that up without full access to the world and character databases, but it stands reasonably firm from what I've seen of most characters past level 18. Only 'stopped' characters would likely stay in a pure form. Using the term 'stopped' as in they are at a completed stage of development, like a perfect twink or maxxed out 70. When WotLK comes out, I think the pure 70's will suddenly become less pure in pursuit of 80. A new PvP season may have some incredible item come out to tempt a pure PvE person while they level up to 80... or vice versa.
It could be argued that hybrids are actually more efficient in many ways than pure profiles, especially while levelling. If that's the case, then the term 'always' may still not apply. So it would depend on what the player is doing with their character if it always applied. Strict PvP or strict PvE, I'd agree with you, but doing a bit of both... not so sure.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm tweaking this a bit much here, but again, just demonstrating that absolutes tend not to be so absolute from all angles, especially with something as subjective as a game based on personal taste, preference and in the end... skill and luck. Gear seems to be all about enhancing the skill and minimizing the impact of luck... ^_^
I agree with most everything you say, just worried about the use of absolutes here... In this case, absolutes tend to lead the uneducated or lazy to flawed biases such as the OP cites.
There isn't always an equivalent piece of gear and sometimes Blizz does mess up in equivalency even at the same level. Mini-maxing from theorycraft generally finds one piece of gear a bit ahead in some way from an equivalent piece at the same level. The difference may be small but it may be large. If it's too big, the one item gets ignored and the other is had by eveyone. For most items it's fairly small and not worth bothering, so agreed, Blizz has done a good job keeping most things approximately equal between PvP and PvE.
PvP and PvE, while I agree they did a good job of separating them, are not always mutually exclusive. Hybridizing is often desireable, and the degree of that depends on the players needs as well as level and gear availability.
I would probably toss out the idea that hybrids of gear are more common than pure gear profiles. I can't back that up without full access to the world and character databases, but it stands reasonably firm from what I've seen of most characters past level 18. Only 'stopped' characters would likely stay in a pure form. Using the term 'stopped' as in they are at a completed stage of development, like a perfect twink or maxxed out 70. When WotLK comes out, I think the pure 70's will suddenly become less pure in pursuit of 80. A new PvP season may have some incredible item come out to tempt a pure PvE person while they level up to 80... or vice versa.
It could be argued that hybrids are actually more efficient in many ways than pure profiles, especially while levelling. If that's the case, then the term 'always' may still not apply. So it would depend on what the player is doing with their character if it always applied. Strict PvP or strict PvE, I'd agree with you, but doing a bit of both... not so sure.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm tweaking this a bit much here, but again, just demonstrating that absolutes tend not to be so absolute from all angles, especially with something as subjective as a game based on personal taste, preference and in the end... skill and luck. Gear seems to be all about enhancing the skill and minimizing the impact of luck... ^_^
I agree with most everything you say, just worried about the use of absolutes here... In this case, absolutes tend to lead the uneducated or lazy to flawed biases such as the OP cites.
Ah the old PvP gear vs PvE gear discussion again :-)
Use whatever gives the best stats for your toon and what is available for you.
Using too many PvP items in PvE content will usually be a bad idea since stats are distributed differently.
However, sometimes you have no luck with drops or a PvP item is really good and can compete with a few PvE items. It is not wrong to wear those.
I raided with a maximum of 4 pvp epics during the last months (S2 shoulders, S3 chest, S3 helmet and veteran belt).
Currently I still raid with the S3 helmet as the T6 helmet still goes for an insane amount of DKP and the shadow prowlers helmet has never dropped at Illidari Council :-)
So yes, raiding Black Temple and Mt Hyjal with some PvP items is still possible.
Use whatever gives the best stats for your toon and what is available for you.
Using too many PvP items in PvE content will usually be a bad idea since stats are distributed differently.
However, sometimes you have no luck with drops or a PvP item is really good and can compete with a few PvE items. It is not wrong to wear those.
I raided with a maximum of 4 pvp epics during the last months (S2 shoulders, S3 chest, S3 helmet and veteran belt).
Currently I still raid with the S3 helmet as the T6 helmet still goes for an insane amount of DKP and the shadow prowlers helmet has never dropped at Illidari Council :-)
So yes, raiding Black Temple and Mt Hyjal with some PvP items is still possible.
You should go for Cursed Vision anyway, duh :P
And i'm not continuing this discussion as sloshot just doesnt understand what i'm saying anyway.
I know 3:2, i also know that with a bow as slow as the S1 one it will turn into a completely rubbish 2:1 rotation.
In fact, Valanos is much better suited for 3:2 as BM, as SV/MM its to slow for that but a 1:1.5 is very doable with little clipping.
And i'm not continuing this discussion as sloshot just doesnt understand what i'm saying anyway.
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I know 3:2, i also know that with a bow as slow as the S1 one it will turn into a completely rubbish 2:1 rotation.
In fact, Valanos is much better suited for 3:2 as BM, as SV/MM its to slow for that but a 1:1.5 is very doable with little clipping.
Aethien wrote:
You should go for Cursed Vision anyway, duh :P
Nope, that won't do.
Only one dropped until now, and I'm not competing with rogues on leather gear. If all rogues have it, I might go for it, but I don't see this happening soon (and I don't think we'll do a lot BT runs the next weeks as Sunwell progression takes up a lot of our time).
and now for the short version; a couple of pieces are fine but a whole pvp set will lack int, ap and hit. Important stats in raids. Perticularly int. mana = good in (long) boss fights.
Mulgrin wrote:
Aethien wrote:
You should go for Cursed Vision anyway, duh :P
Nope, that won't do.
Only one dropped until now, and I'm not competing with rogues on leather gear. If all rogues have it, I might go for it, but I don't see this happening soon (and I don't think we'll do a lot BT runs the next weeks as Sunwell progression takes up a lot of our time).
Good luck in Sunwell btw, any bosses down yet?
Aethien wrote:
Good luck in Sunwell btw, any bosses down yet?
Nope, still tries on Kalecgos.
Hopefully we get him down today or tomorrow, but there are still some things we do not have under control.
He's the Tactics fight right?
And brutallus the "you need 2k+ dps or you wont down him" guy or was it the other way around?
And brutallus the "you need 2k+ dps or you wont down him" guy or was it the other way around?
I understand completely what you are saying Aethien. I just don't agree with the way you are choosing to say it due to the consequences of the viewpoint.
My personal view mirrors Mulgrin's more than a purist PvE vs. PvP one.
My personal view mirrors Mulgrin's more than a purist PvE vs. PvP one.
Aethien wrote:
He's the Tactics fight right?
He is the "jump through your portal at the right time or die" fight with some really intense healing and decursing.
Basically you are fighting two opponents in two seperate places with changing teams.
Currently our tanks can receive >20k damage in ~2-3 seconds and that is rough when the whole raid takes a lot of damage as well.
The fight demands a very high amount of coordination and communication. To top this, the fight is very unforgiving, every small error can and likely will lead to a wipe.
Overall the fight is enjoyable, intense and a great idea but a little to hard. The design is great, the implementation needs very few small changes if you ask me (which of course noone does).
Aethien wrote:
And brutallus the "you need 2k+ dps or you wont down him" guy or was it the other way around?
Yep, for Brutallus you need 28k raid dps to finish him before his enrage timer. With 14-15 DDs you need average dps of ~2k for every DD.
I don't think we can dish out that much dps with our raid, but as soon as Kalecgos is down, we'll see :-)
Mulgrin wrote:
He is the "jump through your portal at the right time or die" fight with some really intense healing and decursing.
Basically you are fighting two opponents in two seperate places with changing teams.
Currently our tanks can receive >20k damage in ~2-3 seconds and that is rough when the whole raid takes a lot of damage as well.
The fight demands a very high amount of coordination and communication. To top this, the fight is very unforgiving, every small error can and likely will lead to a wipe.
Overall the fight is enjoyable, intense and a great idea but a little to hard. The design is great, the implementation needs very few small changes if you ask me (which of course noone does).
Basically you are fighting two opponents in two seperate places with changing teams.
Currently our tanks can receive >20k damage in ~2-3 seconds and that is rough when the whole raid takes a lot of damage as well.
The fight demands a very high amount of coordination and communication. To top this, the fight is very unforgiving, every small error can and likely will lead to a wipe.
Overall the fight is enjoyable, intense and a great idea but a little to hard. The design is great, the implementation needs very few small changes if you ask me (which of course noone does).
From what i read here this fight is comparable to say Vashj and Keal in order of complexity?
Only then with a higher gearlvl needed ofcourse :P
Thats what i'm wiping on atm... Vashj refuses to cooperate with us.
Though Rage has been downed in 4 tries i think... Naj will go this reset.
Maybe a couple more things... we're only raiding T6content 1 day a week because we want to have Vashj and Keal down.
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