So I was invited to run through Kara last night as a pick-up on my Shadow Priest. Just to gloat because I felt awesome, I was 2nd on DPS for the first 4 hours(then got passed up by a Boomkin the last hour..) and was #4 on healing. I felt pretty kool since my char is in mostly blues(and my spell hit is only 23... I'm working on it..) and everyone else was in full ZA gear. But in any case; about half way through the raid a holy priest tells me I should drop the VE talent because it kills my DPS. So I whisper a friend to make sure I'm #2 on damage and my mod isn't reading incorrectly, sure enough - I am where I thought I was(verified this at the end of the raid too). So I send a tell back saying I'm #2 on DPS in blue gear, so I think I'm doing okay on DPS, and that VE helps everyone out. He sent a tell back saying he wouldn't bother.
So my question is this.. does everyone think this way? I was #2-3 on dmg the whole time. And #4 on healing(with overhealing not included). Why would I drop this? Sure my DPS would increase a bit, but when I see how much healing I'm doing, I've always thought it would benefit everyone as a whole for me to have VE up at all times.
Please tell me I'm right... lol
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That is so weird ... almost the same scenario happened last night but I was the raid leader (playing my holy priest ... which I also run shadow off and on). When I read your story I half expected to see that you were the guy in my raid :) Anyway, in my case it was VT the shadowpriest was using on trash mobs and I mentioned that if he wanted to, he could drop the VT out of his rotation since we were fine on mana for the trash pulls. He opted to keep doing it as he liked to pace himself with it and control his aggro (it wasn't really an issue or I would have gone on about how he was drawing aggro from the VT mana return).
In the case of VE, sure you were helping out with healing, but it did reduce overall damage. So, if more healing was needed, then VE would seem the way to go ... if they had that covered, they should do the healing since they have little else to do and you would focus on straight damage. Putting up VE means you would have to watch your aggro more and thus hold back more on damage ... and it means the loss of damage you could be doing when renewing the debuff on the mob. Probably not a big deal, but since you asked ... yeah, if VE is not needed I'd say don't use it. Mainly, use VE and VT on boss fights or VT when there are long chains of pulls (events with few times for casters to sit and drink).
In the case of VE, sure you were helping out with healing, but it did reduce overall damage. So, if more healing was needed, then VE would seem the way to go ... if they had that covered, they should do the healing since they have little else to do and you would focus on straight damage. Putting up VE means you would have to watch your aggro more and thus hold back more on damage ... and it means the loss of damage you could be doing when renewing the debuff on the mob. Probably not a big deal, but since you asked ... yeah, if VE is not needed I'd say don't use it. Mainly, use VE and VT on boss fights or VT when there are long chains of pulls (events with few times for casters to sit and drink).
So simply put, VE does reduce your dps by a slight margin as you are losing that casting cycle, and it is normally not needed. Now, if you are running with paladins then there is something to be said for always using VE. Heals also return a % of health as mana to a paladin, so if you are using a Prot Paladin, then this is a good thing. It is even better if your group just so happens to feature 2 paladins, one as a tank and the other as a healer. (Technically, a good Retribution Paladin would benefit from this as well...)
So in the right group it is definitely worthwhile, but many times it is overused. However, just like Velluna stated, I have used it as part of my rotation in 5 mans for so long that half the time it is tossed without even thinking about it, and truthfully, how much dps do you lose out of the entire situation... very little... maybe a cast every 1 - 1.5 rotations at most, if you are focus firing on one mob at a time.
For bosses you should always use VE, and VT if your grouping is heavy mana dependent. This helps keep anyone from dropping from a surprise crush/crit as you are maintaining everyone as topped off, and allows for most healers to focus on the tank and off tanks appropriately.
So in the right group it is definitely worthwhile, but many times it is overused. However, just like Velluna stated, I have used it as part of my rotation in 5 mans for so long that half the time it is tossed without even thinking about it, and truthfully, how much dps do you lose out of the entire situation... very little... maybe a cast every 1 - 1.5 rotations at most, if you are focus firing on one mob at a time.
For bosses you should always use VE, and VT if your grouping is heavy mana dependent. This helps keep anyone from dropping from a surprise crush/crit as you are maintaining everyone as topped off, and allows for most healers to focus on the tank and off tanks appropriately.
Nah, it isn't due to the casting cycle issues. The debuff lasts long enough to make that a non issue for the most part.
The one thing it will do in a hurry is threat cap you. In other words, the additional aggro you cause by healing your party members will increase your overall threat per second.
While it is a nice talent, and for the most part you won't see this disadvantage in karazhan, you will definitely see it happening on fights where the group is taking damage. This is especially true on later fights when your damage gear is better (the other reason you aren't limited by this yet). For the most part raiding shadow priests don't take improved ve due to threat issues, and for many fights don't use it at all. From a personal perspective, it will often take my threat per second from around 750 without VE to over 1000 when it is active. Another thing to note about this is that the threat caused by VE is not mitigated by ANY priest threat reduction talents whatsoever.
So, long story short, the other guy was right, however since you clearly weren't struggling to stay under the tanks aggro there was no issue with you using VE (talented or not) at the time.
The one thing it will do in a hurry is threat cap you. In other words, the additional aggro you cause by healing your party members will increase your overall threat per second.
While it is a nice talent, and for the most part you won't see this disadvantage in karazhan, you will definitely see it happening on fights where the group is taking damage. This is especially true on later fights when your damage gear is better (the other reason you aren't limited by this yet). For the most part raiding shadow priests don't take improved ve due to threat issues, and for many fights don't use it at all. From a personal perspective, it will often take my threat per second from around 750 without VE to over 1000 when it is active. Another thing to note about this is that the threat caused by VE is not mitigated by ANY priest threat reduction talents whatsoever.
So, long story short, the other guy was right, however since you clearly weren't struggling to stay under the tanks aggro there was no issue with you using VE (talented or not) at the time.
thegreatmothra wrote:
The one thing it will do in a hurry is threat cap you. In other words, the additional aggro you cause by healing your party members will increase your overall threat per second.
A few weeks back, there was a spriest in our kara group that basically did the exact same thing you did, VT & VE up on every mob. Whenever there was a mob loose, we knew exactly where it was headed. After some whispers, he dropped VE from his rotation and stayed vertical the rest of the raid.
Thanks for all the responses. I'll keep using it as they seem to have 1-2 pallies every time, and since I'm VASTLY outgeared by these people I don't have threat issues thus far, but I'll keep everything in mind. Thanks so much.
Oh, and I was 2nd in DPS all night tonight, and 4th on healing again! =D
Oh, and I was 2nd in DPS all night tonight, and 4th on healing again! =D
TacticalRage wrote:
and since I'm VASTLY outgeared by these people I don't have threat issues thus far, but I'll keep everything in mind. Thanks so much.
Oh, and I was 2nd in DPS all night tonight, and 4th on healing again! =D
Oh, and I was 2nd in DPS all night tonight, and 4th on healing again! =D
Something strikes me as "odd" about this. While SPriests can put out great damage, I don't think you should be #2 on the damage meter if you really are VASTLY outgeared by the others. Either your other dps (rogues, hunters, mages, locks ... what are you guys taking in there?) is not doing something right or they are having to really hold back because the tanks are not putting out enough threat to let the dps do their job.
Also, you mentioned you were 4th on healing ... um how many healers do you have? We are talking Kara here, right? Groups usually start with 3 healers and as they get geared will transition to 2 healers so they can have more dps and faster runs. Especially having you (spriest) there, they could probably go to just 2 healers and then have your VE/VT to help with the healing/mana on boss fights. So, of course you were 4th on healing ... there should be no other competition and knowing that you have 3 other healers makes the case even more that you don't need VE going.
Please know that I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just curious about your raid makeup and this post left one of those lingering questions to be answered.
Do many of you have issues with pulling aggro? I did not mention the threat cap as I am a PUG raider... in that my RL interferes with the game so my guild runs consist of me jumping in to help out and never planned. I enjoy the fun of it and all drops go to the core raiders in the guild as I do not mind and have been a leveling ***** for my toons on both servers I regularly play on.
With that being said, I am up there on the dps ranks all the time (top 5 or so), but poorly geared with +496 spell damage. However my mana use is good and not an issue so I have a constant damage stream going with no need to sit and recoup. So is the threat cap a normal occurence for some of you with top end gear? Just curious in case I ever start being a serious raider.
With that being said, I am up there on the dps ranks all the time (top 5 or so), but poorly geared with +496 spell damage. However my mana use is good and not an issue so I have a constant damage stream going with no need to sit and recoup. So is the threat cap a normal occurence for some of you with top end gear? Just curious in case I ever start being a serious raider.
The only time where threat was a problem for me, has been in two kinds of situations (and I typically use VE in all of them): when the tank is a druid, or simply not built to be a good tank, and when all the DPS nukes before the tank and build aggro.
My priest recently turned 70, and not yet geared for raids. But, that has been the experience so far. I think being a priest in general is good for boss fights; not use using VE.
My priest recently turned 70, and not yet geared for raids. But, that has been the experience so far. I think being a priest in general is good for boss fights; not use using VE.
Quote:
Do many of you have issues with pulling aggro?
Yeah, its a chronic issue when VE is running. I can outaggro pretty much any tank without effort. I'm running at over 1500 shadow damage fully raid buffed with a bit extra if you count totems and trinket use so its a difficult comparison to make.
VE = hit threat cap sooner
no VE = more room for more damage
i think your kara PUG was drunk. hunters in ZA gear can autoshot and do more damage than a blue-geared shadowpriest.
no VE = more room for more damage
i think your kara PUG was drunk. hunters in ZA gear can autoshot and do more damage than a blue-geared shadowpriest.
Quote:
i think your kara PUG was drunk. hunters in ZA gear can autoshot and do more damage than a blue-geared shadowpriest.
This. That or they don't care, since it's way below ZA/SSC/TK for those that have been there.
VE is a threat problem, yes. Nothing's more annoying that when I accidentally pop it on Reaver of Tidewalker and find myself either threat capped or gangbanged by 12 murlocs.
Also, I *do* use VT to control aggro. By spending that 1.5sec casting VT, it gives the warrior a chance to SS+Revenge so that I don't immediately pull aggro from Blast+Death.
Well our DPS consists of a Boomkin, Elemental Shammy, PvP rogue and a Ret Pally consistently. So I can't say I'm THAT great, but they all have a mix of badge, heroic, Kara and ZA gear. So I felt pretty shweet.
Only 2 healers as well. So I guess that's not much to gloat about either. But they asked others to toss heals on bosses too. I just like how I can have such high healing without... you know, actively "healing". Just by the use of one spell.
You guys are killing my buzz... =P
I don't get to tank next week, so it's back to the priest!
Only 2 healers as well. So I guess that's not much to gloat about either. But they asked others to toss heals on bosses too. I just like how I can have such high healing without... you know, actively "healing". Just by the use of one spell.
You guys are killing my buzz... =P
I don't get to tank next week, so it's back to the priest!
i find VE is very situational. not only does it build aggro, but depending on how the raid is build you could be healing people who have full health most of the time anyways...
It won't help too much with a prot paladin, since overhealing does not generate mana. However, it is a quick way to generate threat (bad in most cases). As to being #x on damage meter...so? I've topped many a meter on my hunter inside of 5-man pugs, yet I have no purple gear yet. Does that mean I stop worrying about increasing my damage? The fact that you are #2 does mean you're pumping out more damage than most of the raid (the other 5-6 DPSers) but it does not mean you couldn't help more by doing more. That being said, you still have to weigh what you lose, and that I will leave up to you.
while you dont want ve up on every pull.
there are many MANY times where it helps immensly.
Lurker
shade
curator
netherspite
the damn bird boss in the eye
anytime mass aoe damage is being taken.
anytime mass aoe dots are being taken.
Just be smart with it and people will love you for it.
most trash wont need it. so dont use it on trash.
but on any boss fight that you may have to pull off to deal with adds. or run out of somthing.. anytime the tank gets a nice threat lead.. its definatly ok to rock vamp embrace and melt face.
Once you hit about 1k shadow damage raid buffed you will notice that when you open up.. you will refill your entire partys health so damn fast. and you will notice the mana bars start to rise.. and that feels good.
also when the healers demand to have you in there party (spoiled healers) because they are to lazy to heal anything but the tank. and mana conservation (thanks to you) is no longer in there dictionary.
they dont call us mana batteries for nothing.
there are many MANY times where it helps immensly.
Lurker
shade
curator
netherspite
the damn bird boss in the eye
anytime mass aoe damage is being taken.
anytime mass aoe dots are being taken.
Just be smart with it and people will love you for it.
most trash wont need it. so dont use it on trash.
but on any boss fight that you may have to pull off to deal with adds. or run out of somthing.. anytime the tank gets a nice threat lead.. its definatly ok to rock vamp embrace and melt face.
Once you hit about 1k shadow damage raid buffed you will notice that when you open up.. you will refill your entire partys health so damn fast. and you will notice the mana bars start to rise.. and that feels good.
also when the healers demand to have you in there party (spoiled healers) because they are to lazy to heal anything but the tank. and mana conservation (thanks to you) is no longer in there dictionary.
they dont call us mana batteries for nothing.
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