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#1 Mar 13 2008 at 4:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Hey everyone, especially those who play retribution. Just wanted to exchange notes on how you sequence your seals, judgements and etc. in both PVP and PVE. What sequence has worked best for you and allowed the most DPS. While you're at it, what blessings and auras do you use?

In PVP, I usually keep my Sanctity Aura on unless I'm in transit (then it's Crusader, obviously). I self-buff BOK instead of BOM because I like the tad more survivability from the 10% STA increase, and the 1% crit chance increase from 10% AGI. I have Improved Seal of the Crusader up before the fight, judge it, go to SoComm and start CS'ing, timing in some Hammer of Justice/Repentence with my Judgement of Command cooldowns and my opponents' spellcasting. I also make sure all my trinkets are going. My plain Jane white damage is usually around 800, but once all the trinkets and talents kick in, I'm hitting over 1000 regular white damage, 1500-2500 white or holy damage crits. Additionally, when I'm going after clothies like Warlocks, I wait till I'm feared and then bubble Divine Shield and continue chasing them around, hitting with CS and Judgement of Command. It usually takes them by surprise and they miss a few critical casts while they try to escape. They are usually dead by the time bubble wears out - if not I hit them with a stun and finish the job.

PVE: I use Sanctity aura and BOK as well unless I'm in raids then I switch them up to match other pallies if they're present. Judgements change too depending on what others are judging. I like dropping Judgement of Wisdom during boss fights to prevent the unexpected low mana situations. SoComm and CS are staples - I keep using those all fight long. I usually keep only SoComm up for the first 5 to 10 seconds to be sure aggro sticks to the MT before ratcheting up the DPS to it's full scale. I usually watch healer and MT health too and stop for a quick emergency heal or drop a BOP on the healer if they take unexpected spike damage.

EDIT: forgot to add a few more details to the PVP part

Edited, Mar 13th 2008 8:57am by TooRetForYou

Edited, Mar 13th 2008 8:59am by TooRetForYou
#3 Mar 13 2008 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
38 posts
TooRetForYou wrote:
Hey everyone, especially those who play retribution. Just wanted to exchange notes on how you sequence your seals, judgements and etc.


Sounds about right to me. That’s exactly how I do it and I'm usually successful even with out dated gear. You could also throw the occasional Consecration in when fighting multiple opponents.

Also (in PVP) I drop a Judgment of Justice on druids b/c if not, they'll turn into a scaredy cat and run off. I love when they try to escape after JoJ. Usually takes them a moment to figure out why they can't out run me.

And be sure to use Repentance at crucial moments as well. You can get a free heal by stunning your opponent, or stun that healer (so he can wait his turn for the pain train) that won't let you throw your hammer of wrath for the finish. You can also use it to slow down that running spellcaster that’s just out of swinging range to catch up with him/her. Occasionally even use it for a spell interrupt at crucial moments.

#4 Mar 13 2008 at 7:19 AM Rating: Default
38 posts
Dilberrt wrote:

oh... wait...


Yeah, your a healer right? He's asking for Ret sequencing. But thats cool =)
#5 Mar 13 2008 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
PvP: (BGs)
Sanctity Aura, rarely use crusader as its only +5% to my Persuit of justice.
Blessing of Might, the extra HP doesnt help ever from kings plus its too deep in prot for my liking, if its 1-2 vs me bubble will is more then enough servivability, if its more, then kings wouldnt have helped anyway.

if i wanted more survivability at the expense of my damage, i would re-gem/enchant for stam over DPS too, its the same as picking kings over might in my eyes. /opinion

I never use SotC in pvp, not enough of your damage is holy to bother(only your SoC procs), 3% crit is OK, but the missing chance to proc SoCommand isnt worth it. at the most you only end up breaking even. not worth the extra complications. specially if you fight someone who knows they can dispell it.

the only other Judgement i use is justice on escape capable classes.

warlock strat is the same as OP.


PvE:
Sanctity Aura
Blessing of Might unless the tank cant pull decent TPS, then Salv.

judge SotC start of the fight, it helps pace my damage so i dont do something bursty. then SoB > consicrate if i can spare the mana > CS > then judge(watch swing timer) or CS when up,

if hammer is available at the same time as CS, i go with hammer due to global CDs cycle during the hammer cast and i can CS at nearly the same time it actually goes off.

Edited, Mar 13th 2008 10:49am by RuenBahamut
#6 Mar 13 2008 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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333 posts
i hit things with my big mace...
#7 Mar 13 2008 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
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98 posts
Quote:
Also (in PVP) I drop a Judgment of Justice on druids b/c if not, they'll turn into a scaredy cat and run off. I love when they try to escape after JoJ. Usually takes them a moment to figure out why they can't out run me.


Quote:
the only other Judgement i use is justice on escape capable classes.


Very interesting. I never knew that JoJ could be used in PVP! I've only ever used it in PVE. What does it do against other players? Prevent them from blinking, fading, vanshing, speed running etc.? If that's the case it's back on action buttons right away!
#8 Mar 13 2008 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
Terrorfiend
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12,905 posts
it makes them 100% speed no matter what. this includes travel forms and mounts.
#9 Mar 13 2008 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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648 posts
Nightslayerquez wrote:
i hit things with my big mace...


lol, awesome answer :)

and as to pvp/pve seals and judgements what ruen said pretty much except i'm alli not horde so its SoC instead of SoB....

PVP - JotC is almost never worth the mana spent or more importantly the lost JoC. only exception is in AV on the NPC's. otherwise though, i start with JoC when closing (unless i'm busy cleansing myself or others while getting in range) unless i need JoJ to keep rogues or druids from escaping or hunters from kiting me. then what ruen said...

PvE - i honestly don't feel that trash mobs last long enough for JotC. Bosses and even mobs that have enough health (45k or more in 5mans and 70k or more in kara is what is my personal guideline) i'll cast JotC unless theres no other pally to cast JoW (i pretty much always have another pally with me though). after that i just use SoC/JoC and CS, hammer of wrath, etc as available and when it won't interfere with my weapon swing.

always have sanctity aura on unless i'm the only pally and we need a resist aura more than sanc aura. BoM on mysef unless i need Salv. if i have additional pallies i like salv then might then kings. i'll respec for kings and switch kings and might in my priorities list if i ever get more than 1000 str. (i'm a good ways from there though)
#10 Mar 13 2008 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
PvE - i honestly don't feel that trash mobs last long enough for JotC


I always question this too. I agree with you on this, but everytime i try to remove this step, i pull and die.

rather then just stand around and wait for some hate, i just judge SotC first. it just keeps things flowing smoothly for me without having to pay too much attention to what im doing.

or maybe its just the tank, i dont know. . . meh.
#11 Mar 13 2008 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
38 posts
Nightslayerquez wrote:
i hit things with my big mace...
\
LMAO yeah that is funny dude.


KTurner the Meaningless wrote:
it makes them 100% speed no matter what. this includes travel forms and mounts.


I didn't know that either until I started posting on here. I can't tell you how many times those damn druids got away from me with the flag in Warsong b/c I didn't know i could slow them back down.
#12 Mar 13 2008 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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2,396 posts
The RuenBahamut of Doom wrote:
Quote:
PvE - i honestly don't feel that trash mobs last long enough for JotC


I always question this too. I agree with you on this, but everytime i try to remove this step, i pull and die.

rather then just stand around and wait for some hate, i just judge SotC first. it just keeps things flowing smoothly for me without having to pay too much attention to what im doing.

or maybe its just the tank, i dont know. . . meh.

Depends on the mob, really. Generally I would agree that the benefit of the debuff isn't worth the eight-second cooldown, but since you (should) wait for the tank to build threat for a few seconds anyways, yeah, you might as well go ahead and debuff. Gotta squeeze out every ounce of utility that you can.
#13 Mar 13 2008 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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648 posts
The RuenBahamut of Doom wrote:
Quote:
PvE - i honestly don't feel that trash mobs last long enough for JotC


I always question this too. I agree with you on this, but everytime i try to remove this step, i pull and die.

rather then just stand around and wait for some hate, i just judge SotC first. it just keeps things flowing smoothly for me without having to pay too much attention to what im doing.

or maybe its just the tank, i dont know. . . meh.


yeah, honestly the mobs i wait on more than 1 or 2 seconds are bosses or those mobs i would tend to throw jotc on anyway. i definitely prefer pally tanks the most because my sanc aura boosts their threat more than it even does my dps and the couple i run with have plenty of threat in the first second (2 or 3 if something is resisted). but like i said its my personal preference, so you should do what keeps you from dying... SoB will probably build you more threat faster anyway, so you might be better off doing it your way because of that....
#14 Mar 13 2008 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
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1,503 posts
pvp - if you save stun for a heal then you are doing something wrong. a)you should be attacking healers..use stuns for interupts b) you should be with your group..of which should include a healer for you.

as a low quality healer/high burst dmg'er, that stun should be used offensively. if you needed the heal in the first place, chances are that the 2500 you recieved from the heal will be nullified once the enemy comes out of stun. instead use that stun to peel 4k off the opponent and worry about a heal after he's dead.

pve - salv always 1st. the sooner you can start bangin, the sooner you build procs, the more you can unload. if you know you're getting salv elsewhere, bless your imp Might(of which you took over Benediction, cuz you read Sanctified Judgement)

otherwise ToJ's post is on par with my playstyle. dont forget AW(pvp: when bubbles on CD).
#15 Mar 13 2008 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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648 posts
tommyguns wrote:
if you know you're getting salv elsewhere, bless your imp Might(of which you took over Benediction, cuz you read Sanctified Judgement)

otherwise ToJ's post is on par with my playstyle. dont forget AW(pvp: when bubbles on CD).


so, here's where i know i can still learn. i'm curious why i still wouldn't want to reduce my judgement cost by 15%. sanctified seals only returns 80% of the seal you judge, not the judgement...
#16 Mar 14 2008 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
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toolofjesus wrote:
so, here's where i know i can still learn. i'm curious why i still wouldn't want to reduce my judgement cost by 15%. sanctified seals only returns 80% of the seal you judge, not the judgement...

There's nothing for you to learn. tommyguns is quite literally the only person on this board who takes Imp. BoM over Benediction.
#17 Mar 14 2008 at 4:50 AM Rating: Decent
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benediction reduces the effectiveness of sanctified judgement. in pve you wont be spamming judgements. so you want that mana return near the end of the seal's duration to be maximized. take 5/5 Dev Int if oom is a prob.

here is what 5 pts gets you(wowwiki):

This talent is of debatable utility for Retribution Paladins. While it reduces the cost of seals, when Sanctified Judgement is taken into account, the mana savings is small. For example:

Seal of Manawaste costs 100 mana.

Without Benediction, but with Sanctified Judgement it returns 80 mana, for a net cost of 20 mana.

With Benediction it costs 85 mana, and returns 68 mana, for a net cost of 17 mana.


however, this quote doesn't account for the reduction in the Judgement spell(22 mana?)

Edited, Mar 14th 2008 8:53am by tommyguns
#18 Mar 14 2008 at 7:05 AM Rating: Decent
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98 posts
I do like the advice of using Imp. BOM for ret DPS instead of BOK. I've always liked the extra damage output you get from the boost in AP compared to BOK's 10% STR increase. I was talked into going BOK for one reason or the other, but max pew pew is good. Besides, to get to BOK you have to spend an inordinate amount of points on the prot tree with no real use for its 1st tier talents. What a waste of points.

Only thing that sucks now is I have to spend another 50g respeccing. I could have bought my epic flyer by now. *cry*
#19 Mar 14 2008 at 7:13 AM Rating: Decent
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tommyguns wrote:
pvp - if you save stun for a heal then you are doing something wrong.


Thats true for Hammer of Justice stuns but not Repentance. Theirs a time and a place for everything. You know those 2 day long 1 on 1 battles with other paladins? Well...
My gear isn't that great yet, so I'm often the under dog and used this technique to win several times. Here’s an example:
Of course I come out all guns a-blazin with a stun & a SOC and the usual attack. Once I notice I'm almost dead, lets say I've already used my bubble and the opposing pally still has half his health, rather than try to run or die, I'll use Repentance to stun him while I pull off one of my slow-cook heals (that seem to take forever since I have nothing in holy and only gives me a spark of life). Now I have a little more health than him but I know he's still got a bubble heal left in him. I'll duke it out with him a little longer, till we're both low on health. At this point, he's already subconsciously adding this kill to his current score. But I have one last ace up my sleeve. (grin)
He's confident he's about to finish me and not panicked so I know he's going to wait till the last second before he bubbles. So I patently wait a few seconds before using my last Hammer of Justice (stun) and (often enough) time it perfectly to catch him with the lowest health possible before he bubbles(to finish me or heal). We're both about dead, he may even have more health than I do and one last hit to finish me off then WHAM! He's stunned right before he finished me or used his bubble to heal (whichever may be the case). I smite him with everything I've got then finish him off with my "Wraith". All while he's most likely & hopelessly hitting his Divine Shield and beating his mouse on his mousepad.
I can hear it now (on his end):
"OMG! I HAD THAT ****!" WTF! Thats BS!"
On my end:
I simply grin.

Its all about timing, patience and keeping your cool(never panicking). But a repentance-stun-heal buys just enough time to bring your more formidable opponents down enough for the unexpected REAL stun & finishing move.
*note: but thats an ace I keep up my sleeve for the rare occasion that its useful such as this 1on1 Pally Battle Royal



Edited, Mar 14th 2008 11:24am by ChanceTouchstone
#20 Mar 14 2008 at 7:25 AM Rating: Decent
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98 posts
Quote:
So I patently wait a few seconds before using my last Hammer of Justice (stun) and (often enough) time it perfectly to catch him with the lowest health possible before he bubbles(to finish me or heal). We're both about dead, he may even have more health than I do and one last hit to finish me off then WHAM! He's stunned right before he finished me or used his bubble to heal (Whichever may be the case). I smoke him with everything I've got then finish him off with the Wraith. All while he's most likely & hopelessly hitting his Divine Shield and beating his mouse on his mousepad.


Doesn't his divine shield break him out of your Stun, though? I know I use Divine shield to counter everything from stuns to fears. I liked the scenario you portrayed (nothing beats a ret vs. ret fight) but I was just wondering.
#21 Mar 14 2008 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
38 posts
Hmm... now you mention it, your right! But oddly enough this still works all the time for me. I guess I should modify my example.... perhaps its simply a matter of latency. I stun them and finish them b4 they can find time to hit their bubble or something like that. Hmmm..... Perhaps its just they panic with that low of health and stunned and I can pull off a flurry of critical hits while they fumble to find their Divine Shield button or something. lol

Can priests bubble out of Hammer of Justice? Cuz it works with them too.


Edited, Mar 14th 2008 11:35am by ChanceTouchstone
#22 Mar 14 2008 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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648 posts
TooRetForYou wrote:
Besides, to get to BOK you have to spend an inordinate amount of points on the prot tree with no real use for its 1st tier talents. What a waste of points.


that depends... for raiding you really should be hit cap'd. if your gear can't get you there then its worth the 8 points in prot to get precision... for PVP there are probably better ways to spend your points, but even still 3% less chance to miss is still worthwhile. once your gear supports you being hit cap'd then you're right that you'd be wasting 10 points in prot to get BOK.
#23 Mar 14 2008 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
priest bubble is mearly a damage mitigation tool. it blocks no status that im aware of, you can stun them while their bubble is up.
#24 Mar 14 2008 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
as far as the stun is conserned, in a one on one fight, i will use the stun for self heal. my swing is on a 3.6, and my CS is even longer. rather then just stare at a stun guy all day i might as well heal. i always manage to use a judgement, CS, and a heal during a stun.

im wondering how you can fit anymore damage and why you would choose to not heal when givin the opertunity. Of course save it for a interupt, but get that heal off also while you have the time.
#25 Mar 14 2008 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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98 posts
Quote:
as far as the stun is conserned, in a one on one fight, i will use the stun for self heal. my swing is on a 3.6, and my CS is even longer. rather then just stare at a stun guy all day i might as well heal. i always manage to use a judgement, CS, and a heal during a stun.


Good point. I'll try that sequence next time.
#26 Mar 14 2008 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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1,503 posts
unlike other pallies, a Ret needs to stay offensive to win.

consider the 6sec stun: you are using it with your last 1k health. you heal up avg 2k, another 600 from bandaids. now you have 3600 hp. but guess what, your enemy has his CDs back(incl fears, FN, swing timer, shocks, kidney, etc, etc). so you had trouble when you were full health and he had CDs, now you have 1/3 health and he again has CDs. not to mention most classes get more powerful as the fight progresses.

other scenerio: you are bursty. you have 3/3 vengeance procs. a HoJ combo(auto/SoC, cs, JoC) is what you've been waiting for. he sees 4k worth of red numbers pop up on the screen, he might go defensive. if all went well, when the stun breaks you have your swing timer and CS ready for another pummel and your enemy just wants out of there. finish him off, have a beer and a biscuit while you continue to hold the node FTW.
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