My warrior has recently hit level 62 (yay outland) And i've respecced prot at level 60.
A lot of the last 2 levels have been done tanking instances, ramparts, and blood furnace.
Now usually i'm fine, the run goes pretty smoothly and everyone leaves happy.
I've been added to a few friends lists and have had a few "dude, nice tanking!" comments, overall I don't think i'm too bad at tanking.
Until today.
For all of my runs so far i've had at least one mage/rogue for CC'ing, except in my last group the set up was;
Warrior tank (me)
Holy priest
Shaman
Warlock
dr00d
no CC. and i failed. Hard. we didn't even get to the first boss in ramps before we had wiped 3 times, now my question to you all, is CC really this neccesary in Outland, or is it just me being a bad tank?
I usually start a pull with 2x devestate on the main target, then 2 on each other with one on the main target inbetween them, and T-clap is always kept on CD, i use revenge and shield slam whenever i can it just doesn't seem to be enough to keep the entire pull on me.
I'll update this in a sec with a link to my armory incase it'll help.
Thanks in advance.
Edit: My Armory.
Edited, Mar 12th 2008 11:40am by zelrin
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Tanking Outland. iFail?Follow
What are you talking about? The lock is a cc class as well. Even if just a bit.
CC is pretty necessary in instances, especially if you pull way too many than you can handle. Not too sure of the actual situation as I wasn't there, but a failed group usually isn't just one person. It's multiple people, either the healer isn't healing well, the tank can't keep aggro, the CC pulls too early, etc.
What was the druid? I mean, I'm assuming the holy priest was healing and that the druid was an OT?
Either way, I go back to what I said above. A failed group is not just one person, but multiple people. I'm sure if you've done fine in other groups thus far, something (or someone) else was the problem.
CC is pretty necessary in instances, especially if you pull way too many than you can handle. Not too sure of the actual situation as I wasn't there, but a failed group usually isn't just one person. It's multiple people, either the healer isn't healing well, the tank can't keep aggro, the CC pulls too early, etc.
What was the druid? I mean, I'm assuming the holy priest was healing and that the druid was an OT?
Either way, I go back to what I said above. A failed group is not just one person, but multiple people. I'm sure if you've done fine in other groups thus far, something (or someone) else was the problem.
I know that lock can CC, but this one wasn't, we tried to get them using seduce, but that didn't go too well.
Dr00d was Catform DPS.
I was just wondering if a tank should be able to tank without problems even if there isn't any CC happening.
I'll keep trying anyway. Thanks for the reply :)
Dr00d was Catform DPS.
I was just wondering if a tank should be able to tank without problems even if there isn't any CC happening.
I'll keep trying anyway. Thanks for the reply :)
Druid can also use hibernate to put some of the beasts to sleep. Sounds like you had more CC than the group I ran with 2 days ago and we did just fine.
Anything starting from BRD and up you should be using CC. Thats what they are there for. If your lock wouldn't CC that't not your fault... unless you were party leader and didn't kick him for a Lock that would CC or maybe a mage or something along those lines.
Edited, Mar 12th 2008 9:47am by HitashLevat
Anything starting from BRD and up you should be using CC. Thats what they are there for. If your lock wouldn't CC that't not your fault... unless you were party leader and didn't kick him for a Lock that would CC or maybe a mage or something along those lines.
Edited, Mar 12th 2008 9:47am by HitashLevat
The biggest thing with multiple pulls is to make sure everyone is hitting the same mob. Make sure you premark the mobs and it's clear to everyone what they should be doing.
Also in ramps it's easy to get some roamers/patrols added to a pull. Try to avoid this because from my experience this is the number one thing that causes multiple wipes in ramps. Even with a really good group.
Also in ramps it's easy to get some roamers/patrols added to a pull. Try to avoid this because from my experience this is the number one thing that causes multiple wipes in ramps. Even with a really good group.
Ah, okay. I'm assuming that since it didn't go well with seduce, that the lock has never really used it before? Plus the fact that that may have been the problem. For example, if you're tanking away and the lock is supposed to seduce a mob, but fails at it, it'll cause the mob to attack the lock (at least from my experience). Sort of like a chain reaction, one dies, then another, etc.
As I have no experience being a tank (as of yet, made one not too long ago), I'll give my opinion from experience. I've seen tanks do well without a cc class. It may be a bit harder, but it's possible. I'm sure with practice you could do fine in your next "no-CC" group.
Good luck! =)
As I have no experience being a tank (as of yet, made one not too long ago), I'll give my opinion from experience. I've seen tanks do well without a cc class. It may be a bit harder, but it's possible. I'm sure with practice you could do fine in your next "no-CC" group.
Good luck! =)
HitashLevat wrote:
Anything starting from BRD and up you should be using CC. Thats what they are there for. If your lock wouldn't CC that't not your fault... unless you were party leader and didn't kick him for a Lock that would CC or maybe a mage or something along those lines.
CC is situational. A lot of things can be done without it. Just because you have a CC toon in the group doesn't mean you have to use it.
Yeah but if you have it you should use it. there is no reason as many have said in other posts to take all of them when you can cut the numbers down.
Specially in the 4 and 5 mob pulls.
Specially in the 4 and 5 mob pulls.
Depends how well geared you are I suppose. When tanking heroics now I often prefer to leave a few mobs un CCed. Makes it more exciting for me for one thing, tanking 3 mobs at once. In the OPs case though, yea I would definitely recommend using all the CC his group can muster up though, you can't start playing with it like that until you get the necessary gear/experience.
Yeah I am 2h Arms/fury mix right now and I tanked most of ramps. With that said. I had to use CC.
Basically I think it comes down to know your limitations. If you are still mainly in the quested greens from outland I wouldn't recommend just taking everything. You will get eaten up and the healer will be hard pressed to keep you alive. Making it harder if you get 1 or 2 adds.
Me personally have decided that after that incident in BRD where I was having a hard time when we had adds have come to the point where I will be bringing CC if possible. (Just a personal choice really but I feel it's for the best)
Though at this point I guess it no longer matters as a friend in the guild has requested to tank any instance my wife and I run in outland in order to gear up properly for Kara (lvl 70 Prot pally who got me into this guild). Though I might try tanking each instance by myself at least once to get the idea of the instance for a warrior.
Basically I think it comes down to know your limitations. If you are still mainly in the quested greens from outland I wouldn't recommend just taking everything. You will get eaten up and the healer will be hard pressed to keep you alive. Making it harder if you get 1 or 2 adds.
Me personally have decided that after that incident in BRD where I was having a hard time when we had adds have come to the point where I will be bringing CC if possible. (Just a personal choice really but I feel it's for the best)
Though at this point I guess it no longer matters as a friend in the guild has requested to tank any instance my wife and I run in outland in order to gear up properly for Kara (lvl 70 Prot pally who got me into this guild). Though I might try tanking each instance by myself at least once to get the idea of the instance for a warrior.
Thanks for all the replies 
seems like until I have some decent gear (stil got a few azeroth items, and a LOT of greens) then i'll make sure i've got a good CC in the group.
I 'spose I also don't really know my limitations too well either, I know i can tank 2-3 with no problems, it's after that it gets a bit hazy.
Time to get back to practicing then.
Thanks y'all.
seems like until I have some decent gear (stil got a few azeroth items, and a LOT of greens) then i'll make sure i've got a good CC in the group.
I 'spose I also don't really know my limitations too well either, I know i can tank 2-3 with no problems, it's after that it gets a bit hazy.
Time to get back to practicing then.
Thanks y'all.
Scholar
39 posts
Nocturnal wrote:
For example, if you're tanking away and the lock is supposed to seduce a mob, but fails at it, it'll cause the mob to attack the lock (at least from my experience). Sort of like a chain reaction, one dies, then another, etc.
This is a bit OT but succubus will be attacked when seduce fails, not the lock.
Though, for this reason many locks casts a curse on the mob before seducing it, this will make mob attack lock instead of succubus. Warlock can take few hits and while taking those hits the succubus can freely seduce the mob again.
My point is that when you see mob attacking lock instead of succubus when seduce fails, your lock probably has the situation on control and is prepared for it.
Edited, Mar 12th 2008 2:36pm by Irvileuka
Edited, Mar 12th 2008 2:40pm by Irvileuka
That's basically it man, knowing what you can and can't do. Gear isn't always the limitation, sometimes it's just not being able to hold the mobs on you yet. As long as my DPS is intelligent and knows how to focus fire, I can honestly tank about 6 mobs as a time, it's just a matter of knowing how to do it, and knowing tricks you can use, such as timing stuns and taunts to allow to to concentrate on off target agro. Typically at the beginning of a pull I open with something for threat on a mob like devastate and then focus on other mobs in the pull. Switch back to the main DPS target, taunt, do a quick threat move like a shield slam, stun, go back to my other targets. If it's not dead by the time that stun wears off, I can taunt it and then leave it. Remember that taunt can be used creatively because it has two effects...putting you at the top of the mob's threat list, but it also LOCKS the mob on you for 3 seconds.
I've tanked 2 no CC heroics in the past week, and they've gone fine. I was told by my healer that they actually liked it better, and I sure as hell know I did. I didn't have to worry about CC ******** up and having a mob going for my healer, and they didn't have to worry about focused healing on anyone but me. It's all a matter of practice and getting better at it.
Also, don't be afraid to use cooldowns. They're there for a reason, and most tanks that 'save' cooldowns don't actually use them when they really need it, because they're not accustomed to burning them. You don't have last stand, but I have an addon that flashes my screen red at 20% life. If I see that flash, I don't think. I just hit last stand as a natural reaction by this point in time. This tendency has saved myself, and many groups, countless times. If I'm tanking a lot of mobs, and I have a mob break off and go for the casters for w/e reason, I don't bother with trying to chase it down and taunt it. That requires me to turn my back on the group I'm tanking, for one, and completely negate my avoidance stats. It also disrupts my threat generation, and my positioning. I burn challenging shout. It's non-directional and ranged. I'm a pally every 10 minutes, which is less often than I honestly need it. <3 challenging shout.
I've tanked 2 no CC heroics in the past week, and they've gone fine. I was told by my healer that they actually liked it better, and I sure as hell know I did. I didn't have to worry about CC ******** up and having a mob going for my healer, and they didn't have to worry about focused healing on anyone but me. It's all a matter of practice and getting better at it.
Also, don't be afraid to use cooldowns. They're there for a reason, and most tanks that 'save' cooldowns don't actually use them when they really need it, because they're not accustomed to burning them. You don't have last stand, but I have an addon that flashes my screen red at 20% life. If I see that flash, I don't think. I just hit last stand as a natural reaction by this point in time. This tendency has saved myself, and many groups, countless times. If I'm tanking a lot of mobs, and I have a mob break off and go for the casters for w/e reason, I don't bother with trying to chase it down and taunt it. That requires me to turn my back on the group I'm tanking, for one, and completely negate my avoidance stats. It also disrupts my threat generation, and my positioning. I burn challenging shout. It's non-directional and ranged. I'm a pally every 10 minutes, which is less often than I honestly need it. <3 challenging shout.
Yes, it is usually the group as a whole that fails, not a single person.
That being said, you are a little overlvled for ramps, and thus should be able to tank more than just 1 or 2 at a time. If your gear is still subpar, that can make a huge difference, just spend some time questing the rest of hellfire instead of lvling only in instances. Its just a necessary evil.
The thing that makes ramps difficult to multi pull is the casters. Your armor and shield mean squat against magic, but mainly you can't get any threat on a mob that is standing 20 feet away casting. Fortunetly the spells don't exactly hit hard, especially at this level, so the only thing that should cause problems is when 3-4 are casting at the same time overwhelming your healer's cast time.
Here are my suggestions. First, look at your gear and evaluate it. You should have at least 5k health, and dodge & parry should each be over 10%. That is the minimum, I did it with more and it goes much smoother. The biggest issue is group cooperation. However, don't just see there is no CC and assume the group is going to fail, adjust your tactics. Pull with a charge instead of a ranged attack, so you get right on top of the casters. Ask to be leader and mark things yourself, that way you only have to generate threat on a single target. And if you have a dps that is either higher level or seems competent, just have them take out a caster solo. Rogues especially can tear up those mages in ramps and only need a heal or two.
Anyway, hope that helps. Time for class!
Edited, Mar 12th 2008 12:03pm by Zeynothix
That being said, you are a little overlvled for ramps, and thus should be able to tank more than just 1 or 2 at a time. If your gear is still subpar, that can make a huge difference, just spend some time questing the rest of hellfire instead of lvling only in instances. Its just a necessary evil.
The thing that makes ramps difficult to multi pull is the casters. Your armor and shield mean squat against magic, but mainly you can't get any threat on a mob that is standing 20 feet away casting. Fortunetly the spells don't exactly hit hard, especially at this level, so the only thing that should cause problems is when 3-4 are casting at the same time overwhelming your healer's cast time.
Here are my suggestions. First, look at your gear and evaluate it. You should have at least 5k health, and dodge & parry should each be over 10%. That is the minimum, I did it with more and it goes much smoother. The biggest issue is group cooperation. However, don't just see there is no CC and assume the group is going to fail, adjust your tactics. Pull with a charge instead of a ranged attack, so you get right on top of the casters. Ask to be leader and mark things yourself, that way you only have to generate threat on a single target. And if you have a dps that is either higher level or seems competent, just have them take out a caster solo. Rogues especially can tear up those mages in ramps and only need a heal or two.
Anyway, hope that helps. Time for class!
Edited, Mar 12th 2008 12:03pm by Zeynothix
Zeynothix wrote:
Here are my suggestions. First, look at your gear and evaluate it. You should have at least 5k health, and dodge & parry should each be over 10%. That is the minimum, I did it with more and it goes much smoother. The biggest issue is group cooperation. However, don't just see there is no CC and assume the group is going to fail, adjust your tactics. Pull with a charge instead of a ranged attack, so you get right on top of the casters. Ask to be leader and mark things yourself, that way you only have to generate threat on a single target. And if you have a dps that is either higher level or seems competent, just have them take out a caster solo. Rogues especially can tear up those mages in ramps and only need a heal or two.
Anyway, hope that helps. Time for class!
Anyway, hope that helps. Time for class!
Thanks man. That helped me. Ive been tryin to tank that place with 4.6k health. lol.
Look for "of the Champion" greens on the AH to replace any out of date gear you have.
The gear is loaded with stam and def rating and will really help trying to tank Ramps.
The gear is loaded with stam and def rating and will really help trying to tank Ramps.
Done a few more runs, all have gone flawlessly :)
Thanks for all the advice, it's really helped (looks like it's helped other people too!)
Also, buffed with PW:fort. Mar of the wild, Last stand and my trinket, i have over 11K HP :3 taking the damage was no prob :P
Thanks for all the advice, it's really helped (looks like it's helped other people too!)
Also, buffed with PW:fort. Mar of the wild, Last stand and my trinket, i have over 11K HP :3 taking the damage was no prob :P
Scholar
34 posts
The only other bit of advice I have for you would be to make sure the rest of the group gives you time to get aggro on everything, especially if there is no cc.
If they hold off their attacks for a few seconds, then you should be able to sunder each of the mobs at least once, then you should be able to hold them all with your rotation.
Honestly with prot spec tanking is pretty cake - if you are struggling remember your taunts, challenging shout and mocking blow (only use mocking if you NEED to get the mob off your healer and taunt is on cool-down, but I've saved a group with it before and I wasn't even main-tanking lol).
Getting your gear up is also pretty helpful - once you get to about 63-64 take a look at the fel iron stuff, it isn't awesome for specifically tanking (+def wise) but at least for me the +stam and armour was greatly improved over what I had. Now I have the addy stuff for the most part, gemmed with +9 stams and I am hitting over 10k health unbuffed at lvl 66 (just to give you a guide of where you could be when u get there).
If they hold off their attacks for a few seconds, then you should be able to sunder each of the mobs at least once, then you should be able to hold them all with your rotation.
Honestly with prot spec tanking is pretty cake - if you are struggling remember your taunts, challenging shout and mocking blow (only use mocking if you NEED to get the mob off your healer and taunt is on cool-down, but I've saved a group with it before and I wasn't even main-tanking lol).
Getting your gear up is also pretty helpful - once you get to about 63-64 take a look at the fel iron stuff, it isn't awesome for specifically tanking (+def wise) but at least for me the +stam and armour was greatly improved over what I had. Now I have the addy stuff for the most part, gemmed with +9 stams and I am hitting over 10k health unbuffed at lvl 66 (just to give you a guide of where you could be when u get there).
A comment to the opening post.
Although not a traditional CC, a feral druid can help alot in groups lacking CC. If you assign the first target to be killed to be tanked by the druid, you will have yourself some more time to gain threat on the rest of the pull, which will also be smaller by 1 mob. The druid can then change to cat form and return to it's DPS role.
For some reason many tanks ignore this option, and many others assign the LAST mob to be killed to the off tank (which is plain silly, as off tank is a DPS missing and is probably less geared to take damage than the main tank).
In lower level instances in outlands, most druids should be fine tanking 1 mob in cat gear for a short while, so their damage won't even be hurt all that much.
Hope you have the best of luck,
Yuval.
Although not a traditional CC, a feral druid can help alot in groups lacking CC. If you assign the first target to be killed to be tanked by the druid, you will have yourself some more time to gain threat on the rest of the pull, which will also be smaller by 1 mob. The druid can then change to cat form and return to it's DPS role.
For some reason many tanks ignore this option, and many others assign the LAST mob to be killed to the off tank (which is plain silly, as off tank is a DPS missing and is probably less geared to take damage than the main tank).
In lower level instances in outlands, most druids should be fine tanking 1 mob in cat gear for a short while, so their damage won't even be hurt all that much.
Hope you have the best of luck,
Yuval.
YuvalR wrote:
For some reason many tanks ignore this option, and many others assign the LAST mob to be killed to the off tank (which is plain silly, as off tank is a DPS missing and is probably less geared to take damage than the main tank).
It all depends, honestly. Most cases DPS in raids tends to hit my mobs before OT mobs. Keeping the OT up isn't that much work, and I put out reasonably more TPS than our OT does. He's a bit on the low side, averaging only about 700 TPS. I can push 1k+, which allows DPS to hit my mob sooner and harder. Mines dies faster, and then since the OT has had time to establish solid agro on their mob in that time, DPS can burn it down without having to worry about threat. The only time you should really have to worry about an OT going down from what they're tanking is honestly if they're severely undergeared. If that's that case however, then yes that mob would go first.
I once did SL with no CC. Only place we got stuck was the groups before Murmur. No CC is doable but everyone has to pull extra weight and know what they're doing. Lock can bring CC to the table, so can the druid. Tell him/her to stay in bear form. No dps until bosses. The run will be slower but no one dies.
It'll take some extra lvls and gear for you to be able to hold aggro well. Eventhough it's not good practice, get the priest to throw you a regen and a bubble before the pull. Use Bloodrage and open with devastate + shield slam on your main target and then devastate all the other targets while keeping TC on cooldown. You will use a lot of rage.
So far, I can only tank 3 mobs comfortably. More than that, I would ask for an OT or CC. Learn your limits and make sure the group knows them. It's always nice to tell them that you can't hold more than X number of mobs and everyone has to dps skull (or whichever target).
Anyways, you seem to be willing to ask and learn. That's good and the more you tank, the more you learn the mechanics. Take it slow and you'll be able to pick up the ins and outs of warrior tanking.
Good luck !
It'll take some extra lvls and gear for you to be able to hold aggro well. Eventhough it's not good practice, get the priest to throw you a regen and a bubble before the pull. Use Bloodrage and open with devastate + shield slam on your main target and then devastate all the other targets while keeping TC on cooldown. You will use a lot of rage.
So far, I can only tank 3 mobs comfortably. More than that, I would ask for an OT or CC. Learn your limits and make sure the group knows them. It's always nice to tell them that you can't hold more than X number of mobs and everyone has to dps skull (or whichever target).
Anyways, you seem to be willing to ask and learn. That's good and the more you tank, the more you learn the mechanics. Take it slow and you'll be able to pick up the ins and outs of warrior tanking.
Good luck !
Quote:
I once did SL with no CC.
That's impressive (unless you had an over-geared party). Those 6 mob pulls before Blackheart the Inciter (the mind control boss) were tough. I couldn't have even imagined trying it with a regular geared group and no CC. Nice job.
lemme ask you this.
did your group make careful pulls every time?
did your group avoid Pats every time?
did your group never get any links (additional monsters that were unintended joining in the fights).
I find that BF and ramps have a lot of nasty pulls to them. CC helps fix those problems, but generally if you can make good pulls you can get away w/out it. just need some patience.
did your group make careful pulls every time?
did your group avoid Pats every time?
did your group never get any links (additional monsters that were unintended joining in the fights).
I find that BF and ramps have a lot of nasty pulls to them. CC helps fix those problems, but generally if you can make good pulls you can get away w/out it. just need some patience.
YJMark wrote:
Quote:
I once did SL with no CC.
That's impressive (unless you had an over-geared party). Those 6 mob pulls before Blackheart the Inciter (the mind control boss) were tough. I couldn't have even imagined trying it with a regular geared group and no CC. Nice job.
Yea it's difficult, but like he said everyone has to be at the top of their game. When that mage gets aggro on an add he has to be ready hit it with Frost Nova. Rogues have to be willing/able to switch targets mid-fight and gouge something that runs off. Locks can fear, and so can warriors. Combine that with heavily focused fire, good heals, and proper use of challenging shout and those pulls should be doable with no CC. On heroic mode, maybe not.
Edited, Mar 13th 2008 12:39pm by duvar
Like mental said, the key really is marking your targets and making sure everyone knows the kill order. Im working on a 63 warrior and i did ramps the other night. i could handle healer aggro with Demos and TCs and my DPS was supposed to focus on a kill order i specified at least 5 times the entire run.
As long as the DPS is on the target with the aggro you should be a ok even without CC. Also in the dog patrols, which are usually in the larger pulls in ramps, i didnt even bother trying to tank them they died so fast. i put them as 1&2 kill orders then went ahead and sundered up the elites.
As long as the DPS is on the target with the aggro you should be a ok even without CC. Also in the dog patrols, which are usually in the larger pulls in ramps, i didnt even bother trying to tank them they died so fast. i put them as 1&2 kill orders then went ahead and sundered up the elites.
Aye, i've been making sure i tell everyone to "let me pull this around the corner, then focus on the SKull'd target first" or "let me get a bit of hate here" etcetc, and it's been going fine.
I've also tried to get in groups with a healer i know IRL (see, we're both in the same room) and we've had no problems,
Heck, i even tanked Mana-tombs at 63 with my crappy green 2.6 speed sword with level 70 DPS, and it went fine. (and i don't mean the, "they 1-shotted everything" type of fine either >.<)
I've also tried to get in groups with a healer i know IRL (see, we're both in the same room) and we've had no problems,
Heck, i even tanked Mana-tombs at 63 with my crappy green 2.6 speed sword with level 70 DPS, and it went fine. (and i don't mean the, "they 1-shotted everything" type of fine either >.<)
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