Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Thread moved to another postFollow

#77 Mar 13 2008 at 10:13 AM Rating: Default
Mistress Draeneipally wrote:
Well, I wouldnt midn losing eye of the storm in the ele tree, or anticipation in the enhancement tree, shamans have so many useless talents its funny.

Quote:
But having alluded to something, let's just say I don't immediately dismiss what you say simply because it's you who have said it. Your post about your "conversation" with a GM? Sheer idiocy


I'm sorry, but I guess you fail at reading comprehension. And just plain reading. I was conversing to a GM about the shaman status, not in anyway saying "OMFG LULZ!!! YOU IS A IDIOT GIVE MI A CC!!!"

But I'm done with you, you should take a hiatus from the shaman forums. We would all love that,



Actually no, in your post detailing that conversation, you asked the GM what they planned to do about it. GMs can't do a ******* thing about that kind of complaint. That's the point. Reading comprehension? Pot? Kettle? What?
#78 Mar 13 2008 at 10:20 AM Rating: Default
Mistress Draeneipally wrote:
Sorry, no. You've apparently never played a shaman. Why would I waste my GCD to dispell poisons when I need to heal myself? Either way Im F8cked. And frost shock is a 40% snare where as wing clip is a 60% I believe. Please make sure you know about the class before posting.


But your hero RPZip already said that if you're stopping to heal yourself, you've already lost...at least removing the poison is instant and not subject to knockback/interruption. Would you kids kindly make up your minds? Healing is good? Not good? Shaman as a general population excel at QQ above all else? What?

So confusing...
#79 Mar 13 2008 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
***
2,396 posts
HitashLevat wrote:
I would like to point out that any melee class that wants to you has a way to close that gap your worried about no matter what.

First of all, what?

Second of all, no. Sorry. This is not the perfect game world where ever class/spec has the tools it needs to do what it wants. Enhacement Shaman are literally incapable of closing distance on anyone outside of Shock range (20 yards). All the opponent has to do is stay beyond that and they can kite the Shaman indefinitely while only taking minimal damage from untalented, not-geared-for, non-pushback-resistant Lightning Bolts.

Quote:
Look at this for a moment. I don't care what you are trying to use any slowing effect move. Cold effect/ frost shock/daze/ conc shot/frost trap/Hamstring/wingclip/crippling poison.

What?

Quote:
Ok looking at these... check this out. for poisons, shaman's druids and palis can dispell poisons

And...? There is only one poison-based snare in the game: Crippling Poison. It's applied with alarming frequency, so while possible to remove, it's still difficult. But that still leaves us vulnerable to every other movement-impairing effect in the game.

Quote:
for cold effects true melee classes have movement inhancing abilities. Charge/intercept for warriors , sprint for rogues, BoF for palis. druids have shifting out of that stuff and they can use a charge ability as well.

Now I'm confused. I thought you were arguing that Shaman didn't need buffs, but... here you seem to be agreeing with us, so... Ok?

Quote:
Getting away. You can just as easily shock someone as I can wingclip them in fact you can shock the runners so you can catch up to them as enhancement or shock and run.

No. If it was just Wing Clip, yeah, you might have a point. But you have Freezing Trap, Frost Trap (immobilizes with talents), a stun (BM), immunity to all snares (BM), an incapacitate (MM), and a sleep (SV). You know what Shaman have? Yeah... Frost Shock. And Earthbind, but they basically do the exact same thing. Try to imagine trying to escape someone if all you had was Wing Clip and you've essentially got a Shaman.

Quote:
As a MM hunter. I conc you, You shock me... your shock is going to make it harder for me to do what I do best as compared to you who can still melee very well or cast on me in a standing location.

You can Conc Shot outside of all Shamans' Shock range, even with the extra five yards from the arena gloves. Then, as I've already mentioned, you've got your other tools. If you are ever run down by an Enhancent Shaman then you are just a terrible Hunter. Also, Hunters rape Shaman who try to stand still and cast, so if you're losing to Elemental Shaman you are an even worse Hunter.

P.S.: If English is not your native language, disregard this and I apologize, but your post construction was godawful.

Edited, Mar 13th 2008 3:18pm by Gaudion
#80 Mar 13 2008 at 11:33 AM Rating: Default
*
53 posts
I know I am the least qualified person to be talking about an issue on Shaman's shortcomings as a class but reading through this thread got me thinking since I rerolled to horde (as a shaman) with a friend of mine.

I understand that the bulk of shaman community has been asking for a form of CC to make them viable in pvp, especially in arena pvp. But can someone more experienced with arena pvp with a shaman explain what would having a form of CC available to shaman mean exactly? I think it gives you the ability to control certain situations (coming from playing with a rogue at 70) but the problem going that direction was the fact that shamans don't have ANY CC to begin with so giving them 1 "out" of a situation will accomplish exactly what?

Personally, giving shamans CC would be a great idea but when I think about it, it sounds more like a bandage then a balance fix.

So staying on topic with trying to make shaman viable in arena, instead of looking into giving shaman CC, how about the other ideas that's been discussed such as totem mechanics, mobility/anti-mobility abilities, GCD of totems, ect?

I would like to hear from the experienced shaman pvpers on what they think would make shaman more viable overall in pvp? Giving them CC or looking into other areas of shaman that seems underpowered or areas that simply doesn't work very well.

At the end of the day, I don't think giving shaman ONE CC ability isn't going to balance anything in the long run. Giving shaman more than one CC ability would be just OP imo. That's how I feel about that atm but if there is something I'm not understanding correctly or wrong, please do correct me. ty.

Just want to hear some opinions.


#81 Mar 13 2008 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,256 posts
No gaudion you don't understand what I am saying.

Sorry if it seems a little off but I was mentioning things that cause slowing effects. also stating the "true" melee classes have ways to get on top of people who use these when played properly. You might need to spec for it but it still is an option.

I am not saying shamans don't need a buff. I just don't think they need a CC. Every class has a weakness and with the exception of druids (which blizz aparently adores) the hybrid classes have a lot more options while not really being the best at these things.

I understand that you might not want to dispell it but that is an option. Specially as there are some pretty dumb rogues out there that once they get cripple on you they tend to move less. (I see alot of them)

I will admit that shamans lose to hunters. but almost all casters die to hunters. with a few exceptions. (again everyone has their weakness)

It is fine if you don't like how I put my post together. You are entitled to have your opinions. I normally don't worry about it as long as it is read-able.

#82 Mar 13 2008 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
I'd agree that a CC isn't that answer. Not because it wouldn't help, because it would. But more along the lines that it doesn't 'feel' like a shaman kind of thing. Sure, I know, what does 'feel' have to do it anything. Well I don't know, so there :)

IMO, the problem we have is that we need to be able to close/create gaps (as has been stated many times). CC would help with this. It is one way to do it. You can't say that a cyclone doesn't allow a druid to run off a bit. If he can get it off, then he's good for a couple seconds. A freezing trap allows the hunter to get distance, and even get a good aimed shot off. Though you rarely sheep, that can be done (at the beginning of a fight ofc) to get distance right off the bat. I know there are trinkets and what not, but the point remains, CC is very effective in certain situations. Though like I said, I'd hate to see shamans with a CC. When I play my shaman, I like to feel like I can fix situations, not so much that I can create situations. I hope that makes at least an ounce of sense.

A change does need to happen, there is no doubt about that. What change, and when? No idea. Doesn't mean we can't talk about it, think about it, discuss about it (without so many insults). Though I agree Blizz has lots of people working on it, it's not like they will always come up with the best ideas right off the bat. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a dedicated hour or two to troll all kinds of forums to look for ideas. But chances are our discussion of such things will have very little impact. Though it is still worth discussing, imo.

So before anyone gets a chance to jump down my throat for having no experience, being dumb, not being able to spell correctly, having no life, living in my mom's basement, etc... I'd just like to say, I'm no one important, so any negative things said in response is pointless.

Having said that, it's important to note that the guy in WSG that keeps saying 'You guys suck, can't you get the flag??!?!!!?' will always think he's right, while everyone else knows he's retarded (except those people just running around killing things for fun, but I digress). So to move on (like Gaudion said) I like the idea they have about adding the reduction of movement slowing effects duration to toughness. Well, not to toughness, I think that's kinda dumb, but at least it's a start.

So there's a bunch of boring crap for you all to read. Shamans can be tough, but there are reasons why things are less commonly seen/used. What the vast majority of the player base does is usually for a very good reason. And this is coming from the guy that likes to try builds that no one tries anymore, or that I thought at the time no one does. I'm sure we'll see changes along the way.
#83 Mar 13 2008 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
Quote:


So 4 weeks of Arena experience and you had...what for a rating? No really...you and your ilk who have been playing for years and look down your noses at people who don't have the playtime you do like they're somehow lesser players are @#%^ing ridiculous.


Four weeks? I think I was hovering around 1700ish doing between ten and twenty games a week, without... you know, actually respeccing for PvP. That came later.

And guess what? Your Arena rating is still around 1450. It's been a good bit longer than four weeks at this point.

Wait, wait... let me anticipate your response. "But I don't care about PvP anymore, you elitist evil meanie poopieface!" And that complete lack of experience or interest in PvP is what makes you completely unqualified to even enter this discussion.

You think PvP works in ways that it simply does not. You think Arenas work in ways that they simply do not. Hence the complete and utter idiocy of the responses you've provided; well, combined with your natural "challenges".

Quote:


Not necessarily to the extent that Shaman can. Trueshot Aura? Great if you've got another non-MM Hunter on your team...@#%^ing useless as a "group buff" any other time. Expose Weakness has a better group benefit than TSA.


Are you as complete of a motherfucking ****** as you seem? Good fuckoing god, man. Think before you use that goddamn keyboard.

What buffs do Rogues provide? If you're as much of a ****** as you appear to be, none! They don't have anything that shows up in your buff bar. Nothing!

If you're not a complete moron, bringing a healing debuff, reappliable snare and stuns. Hunters have one (insignificant) group buff, but they also bring a global snare, healing debuff (not ideal) and mana drains. Hell, I even specified this. Read this again, dumbass;

Quote:

Allow me to break this down for you; all classes are group buffing in a PvP sense. Yes, even Rogues (and Hunters). All abilities beyond straight damage work as a component of the group on the whole.

So even if your class is best at strictly buffing your teammates, so what? You still bring less to the group than other classes. Hunters provide damage and a global snare ('buffed easy escape'), in addition to decent fire-and-forget mana drains, dispels and a MS effect. Even though their only 'group buff' in a PvE sense is TSA, their group contribution is enormous.

Stop thinking in terms of PvE and start thinking in terms of PvP when you talk about PvP. I know it's hard for you, since you don't know the first thing about PvP, but then you might want to let the people who actually have a clue talk.


How hard is this to understand? People who have more than two bloody braincells to rub together can get it in their first go! Well, second.

Quote:
Rather than just referencing that it was removed (because some of us have better things to do than check the patch notes daily), you have to make it personal.

Actually, I didn't reference the patch notes.


Yes, dumbass. You're trying to defend your idiocy by referncing things that don't even exist, and are never going to happen. Doing some basic factchecking before you hit the "Post" button is usually a good idea if you're not trying to appear as a complete and utter moron.

Just a thought.

Quote:
Cleaves and Swipes also defy the logic of selective targeting. I know you're probably some sickly uber-dork in mama's basement who hasn't ever done a real day's work, but if you've ever swung something heavy...like say...a sledgehammer or an axe...you'd know that you can't exactly micro-manage the arc.


Yeah... because real-world logic has such a great place in discussions of a game where you can throw great big balls of fire without burning yourself and you have a five yard reach with a dagger as any melee class. "BUT BUT BUT DAS NOT HOW IT WURKS IN TEH REAL LIFEZ" is one of the weakest possible defenses (or arguments for) anything in a game like Warcraft.

Quote:


I didn't add a qualifier to my statement. Most Hunters in arena are BM for one reason and one reason only: TBW. Yet...without that snare resistance they bring more to their...team? So what you're saying is...sacrificing snare resistance is...not necessarily a bad thing?

But RP! Look at all the Shamans QQing that they have no snare resistance!


Yes... except that;

1) Most Hunters are not BM. Really, I swear.
2) They're sacrificing a long-cooldown Snare resistance ability for sustained and reliable CC and defensive abilities (trap talents, Det, Scatter Shot) as well as additional offensive abilities (Silencing Shot).
3) Even if none of the above were true, a snare resistance when you're range is "anything over five yards" rather than "anything under five yards" is a whole different ballpark.

Quote:
I have no Arena experience on my Shaman


Thank you, come again... moron.

BG experience is not the same as Arena experience in the same way that a normal L70 instance is not the same as BT/Hyjal experience. It's in an entirely different ballpark, so attempting to translate experience from one into experience from the other is... frustrating at best.

You don't know how little you know. You simply have no idea how big the gap is; people who've actually done both might have a better idea than people who've done only one what the differences between the two are.

How can you not understand this? It's as basic as you can get!

Quote:
You don't need a 2200+ rating to figure out that adding CC to Shaman would make them OP. Very much OP. You'd be taking the ability to heal (whether it's useful in most situations or not...if you find it useful in 10% of your Arena matches, it's a noteworthy addition to the class) and adding the ability to dish out sick damage (if you can't, you suck) and the ability to buff a party in diverse ways (and if your best counter is that totems can be destroyed, that's one less attack focused on someone on your team) while wearing the second best class of armor defense wise to the ability to purge, interrupt/lockout casting every 8 seconds and now...CC?


You don't need any experience in Arenas to know that adding X to Y would be SHO TOTOTALLY TIZOVERPOWRES that it would break the game. BRIZZOKEN.

Nope, never. You don't even need any Resilience. You don't even need to have ever played the class, much less at level 70; you just know. You know that the people who have trouble succeeding in Arenas must just suck; I mean, it's not like you could ever have a searchable tool to look through all Arena teams above 2000 and not find a single Enhancement Shaman. It must just be coincidence.

You whiny bastards. L2P lawl! Learn 2 warp 2 peoplez becuz if you can't cazch them its becuz u just suck. I men, its not liek ther doing anything; they jus sit dere until you hit them and kill them lol.

So QQ moar. U dun deserv anyfing. Just l2p.

Quote:

RPZip has a long standing childish resentment towards me. He takes a certain adolescent glee in cutting down anything I've said simply because it's me who said it. He's not someone I would call respectable by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't put people on pedestals for much of anything, certainly the least of which being their accomplishments in an MMO.



Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

I enjoy mocking idiots. Don't worry; you're not alone! I especially enjoy mocking idiots who don't realize just how moronic they are. It makes the whole experience much more enjoyable for me; I'll admit you're an intriguing... well, I won't condescend to call you a 'sparring partner', since you're not even in the same league, but you're definitely one of the more oblivious idiots on these forums.
#84 Mar 13 2008 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,396 posts
stonedvodka wrote:
But can someone more experienced with arena pvp with a shaman explain what would having a form of CC available to shaman mean exactly?

Spacing. It's all about spacing. Or lack thereof. Shaman, like any other class in the game, is heavily reliant on spacing. For example, melee classes (Rogues, Warriors, etc.) want to be right up in their target's face hacking away 90% of the time. Caster classes, by contrast, usually want to stay as far away from their targets as possible, controlling and nuking.

Shaman have the tools available to them to accomplish neither. Enhancement Shaman are hands-down the easiest melee spec to nullify through kiting, bar none. If you can stay outside of five yards, they can't melee you; outside of 20 yards, they can't Shock you (which takes away both their snare and interrupt); outside of 30, and they can't touch you at all.

Elemental and Resto Shaman are having the same problem in reverse: they can't escape from anyone.

The two weakest snares in the game (again, with a 20-yard range) are not enough to keep any melee classes off of you, and Elemental Shaman tend to lose most nuke-fests due to the fact that they have to stop to cast their main damage spells, have no pushback resistance outside of arena gear (where most other casters can talent for 70% resistance fairly early in their trees), they have no CC in order to set up a nuke, they have the worst interrupt in the game in Earth Shock, and on top of all of that their healing spells and damage spells are both the same school, making them painfully easy to shut down.

Resto Shaman, without the instant heals that make Druids and Priests mobile and hard to shut down in the arena, are... well, yeah... just way too easy to shut down. All you have to do is put some *** on them and either they or their DPS partner will fold like a lawn chair to the other team's focus-fire.
#85 Mar 13 2008 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
**
569 posts
Quote:
And frost shock is a 40% snare...

...Please make sure you know about the class before posting.


The point of Frostshock being a weaker snare than Wing Clip still stands, but c'mon...

(http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=25464)
#86 Mar 13 2008 at 12:40 PM Rating: Default
***
1,256 posts
OK gaudion. I see your point. As I said they could use some help. I just don't know if a CC is the right idea. Maybe a step in the correct direction.

Well you can hope for next patch for them to do something for ya guys cause 2.4 just came out. my comp at home is DLin it while I am at work. 251 meg. with the Blizz DL program it will prolly take 2 hours knowing how it comes from their system.
#87 Mar 13 2008 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
*
53 posts
So it seems like shamans have a fundamental problem with not having adequate means to either close the gap or increase it. But would giving shamans a CC ability the only way to fix that problem? Thanks for your thorough explanation btw Gaudion.
#88REDACTED, Posted: Mar 13 2008 at 12:53 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You know what? You've had about a half a dozen opportunities to answer the two simple questions posed of you. You have been unwilling (or incapable) of doing so in a way that doesn't confound your argument. You've pretty much failed in every way possible to clarify your point, and you've had more than enough chances to do so.
#89 Mar 13 2008 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
But your hero RPZip already said that if you're stopping to heal yourself, you've already lost...at least removing the poison is instant and not subject to knockback/interruption. Would you kids kindly make up your minds? Healing is good? Not good? Shaman as a general population excel at QQ above all else? What?


Ok, I see I'm going to have to go into detail for you.

A Heal is spell or ability that replenishes health. Smiley: schooled

Cure posion is an ability that removes 1 poison Smiley: schooled

GCD is the global cooldown, all spells and abilities are subject to the GCD. Which lasts 1 second. Smiley: schooled

Knockback is what happens to a spell when you are damaged while casting it. Smiley: schooled

When you add all of this up... would you rather cure crippling poison and end up dying from the attacks faster than say... healing yourself (trying to) or heal yourself and hope your team can do something about it before you die in 3-4 seconds. Smiley: schooled
#90 Mar 13 2008 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,396 posts
stonedvodka wrote:
So it seems like shamans have a fundamental problem with not having adequate means to either close the gap or increase it. But would giving shamans a CC ability the only way to fix that problem? Thanks for your thorough explanation btw Gaudion.

Not a problem.

CC isn't the only way to fix the problem, but it is definitely the best way. The space-control is the main issue, but there are some other peripheral problems that the CC would solve as well. Immediately coming to mind are the facts that, without instant heals (outside of the easily dispellable Earth Shield), it's nearly impossible to get a heal off without getting interrupted unless Nature's Swiftness isn't off cooldown. Also, without a panic button, it's very difficult, if not impossible, for Shaman to come back from a deficit.

The other "good" option is to give Shaman a mobility option instead of CC. The best suggestion to date would be to simply have Ghost Wolf mimic Druid shifts. With an instant-cast shift that removed movement impairing effects and gave us a speed increase, Enhancement's could actually run an opponent down, and Resto/Elemental could put some distance between them and the target.

In my opinion, anything other than those two options is simply not going to cut it. A simple root could feasibly work as well as a CC if we had a root and an instant Ghost Wolf, but beyond the basic spacing issues we still need a panic button because our inability to deal with incoming CC is almost as crippling as our inability to apply it.

Unfortunately, right now Blizzard is beating around the bush, applying band-aid solutions to the Enhancement tree that are simply not going to solve any of our problems or help the class as a whole.
#91 Mar 13 2008 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
Lawlz

Considering this will be my 7th post, I wasn't going to say much. I wasn't even going to take sides, because I didn't know if I agreed with how this was all going down, but after that last post, there's not much left to be said I suppose.

AureliusSir, you can't go on and on about he they haven't answered your question(s). They have been summed up more or less by other posters. It is obvious that you just want to have it out with these guys (though I'm not sure if you're having as much fun with it as they are lol). Even if you believe yourself to be right, you must realize this isn't the way to show it. Most things you just got done telling RP off for, you did too in the process.

Last thing, you keep saying how these guys don't have a life, need to get away from the PC, blah, blah, blah... Seems to me that you've been posting most of the day. Does that mean anything to you? Seems to me that you have nearly 4k posts, which is probably why you keep responding, trying to hit 4k? I can't blame you there, I know I would. So, no matter how short your posts are, 4k is a lot of times worth of posts. I know we all see it. I'm just saying, don't be the guy in WSG - 'You all suck, I'm the only one that knows how to play, can't you guys go as a team, I'm all by myself here trying to get the flag all alone, if you guys knew how to play, you'd be here with me!' Kind of an odd statement don't you think?

Edited, Mar 13th 2008 5:51pm by BairBro
#92 Mar 13 2008 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
What really isn't helping are the pvp failures that get wtfpwnt by shamans in BG's and claim they are OP.
#93 Mar 13 2008 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
AureliusSir wrote:
RPZip wrote:
Quote:


So 4 weeks of Arena experience and you had...what for a rating? No really...you and your ilk who have been playing for years and look down your noses at people who don't have the playtime you do like they're somehow lesser players are @#%^ing ridiculous.


Four weeks? I think I was hovering around 1700ish doing between ten and twenty games a week, without... you know, actually respeccing for PvP. That came later.

And guess what? Your Arena rating is still around 1450. It's been a good bit longer than four weeks at this point.


Actually, it hasn't. I haven't done a single arena match since S3 started. I've already mentioned that. Do a little reading before you fill in with your assumptions please.


Okay. You're right, of course; having even less PvP experience than I'd been crediting you with gives you a much better case to make here. My mistake.

Quote:
WTF has a Rogue got to do with your comment about Trueshot Aura being a Hunter group buff? Have you entirely lost your mind?


To preface the next exchange, I'm going to reconstruct the entire quote pyramid.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Allow me to break this down for you; all classes are group buffing in a PvP sense. Yes, even Rogues (and Hunters). All abilities beyond straight damage work as a component of the group on the whole.

So even if your class is best at strictly buffing your teammates, so what? You still bring less to the group than other classes. Hunters provide damage and a global snare ('buffed easy escape'), in addition to decent fire-and-forget mana drains, dispels and a MS effect. Even though their only 'group buff' in a PvE sense is TSA, their group contribution is enormous.

Stop thinking in terms of PvE and start thinking in terms of PvP when you talk about PvP. I know it's hard for you, since you don't know the first thing about PvP, but then you might want to let the people who actually have a clue talk.


Not necessarily to the extent that Shaman can. Trueshot Aura? Great if you've got another non-MM Hunter on your team...@#%^ing useless as a "group buff" any other time. Expose Weakness has a better group benefit than TSA.

Are you as complete of a mother@#%^ing ****** as you seem? Good @#%^ing god, man. Think before you use that goddamn keyboard.

What buffs do Rogues provide? If you're as much of a ****** as you appear to be, none! They don't have anything that shows up in your buff bar. Nothing!

If you're not a complete moron, bringing a healing debuff, reappliable snare and stuns. Hunters have one (insignificant) group buff, but they also bring a global snare, healing debuff (not ideal) and mana drains. Hell, I even specified this. Read this again, dumbass;


WTF has a Rogue got to do with your comment about Trueshot Aura being a Hunter group buff? Have you entirely lost your mind?

What is your point? Do you have a point? You're listing off the buffs other people bring to the table. Good for you. What the @#%^ is your point? I haven't denied that other classes bring buffs to the group. I've said by and large, a Shaman's buffs are better. The counter to them being better is that they're easily dispelled (destroyed). So again, if you're going to accuse me of being stupid,

CLARIFY YOUR POINT, BECAUSE AS OF THIS MOMENT, IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT YOU HAVE ONE.


In the very, very simplest possible terms I can use;

You are operating under the assumption that Shamans are the "Group Buff"-iest class... in the sense that, while their individual contributions may not be as great as others, their contribution to the group on the whole makes up for that loss. This statement seems to be based primarily upon the Totem system (and Bloodlust), with the attached assumption that because you can get five little icons on your buff bar with a Shaman that they bring the most to a group.

You would be, in a word, 'incorrect'. Shamans are a group-buffing class in PvE; their PvP group contributions are considerably smaller. Other classes bring as much or more to the group than Shaman does; not as much directly, through the buffs that pop up, but through their utility that the Shaman doesn't possess. Claiming that Shamans are the kings of group buffs is pure PvE thinking, and flat-out does not apply in PvP situations.

As to "how did Rogues come up", they were mentioned in the very first post... which you completely ignored, to bring up some moronic point about how Expose Weakness is a better group buff than TSA, thus missing the entire point. Both TSA and Expose are absolutely awful in an Arena enviroment, and if that is all that you think a Hunter brings to a PvP group you truly are an idiot.

When you talk about "group buffs" or what Class X brings to Group Y, limiting the PvP discussion to purely the matter of what shows up in your buff bar defeats the entire purpose.

Quote:
You argue so, so poorly. I mean, you're so pathetically insecure it defies words. If you weren't, you wouldn't look at a minor oversight as justification to so harshly berate someone. Idiot? Utter moron? Naw...don't work, scrubby. If such a minor oversight is, to your way of thinking, the opening you were looking for to jump down my throat, you really, really, really need to get a grip on life away from a PC.

Do you have a life away from the PC RPZip? Job? School? Anything?

Just a thought.


*yawn* I've said it before, and I'll say it again; the armchair pop psych crap you find interesting is... well, boring.

"I don't have to have any idea what I'm talking about because I has TEH LIFE AND U DU NOT" is also not terribly compelling. Even assuming we take it on face value; I'm chained to my PC, never leave the house and spend my entire day immersed in WoW minutae... wouldn't that make me better qualified to speak on this subject than you are?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I didn't add a qualifier to my statement. Most Hunters in arena are BM for one reason and one reason only: TBW. Yet...without that snare resistance they bring more to their...team? So what you're saying is...sacrificing snare resistance is...not necessarily a bad thing?

But RP! Look at all the Shamans QQing that they have no snare resistance!


Yes... except that;

1) Most Hunters are not BM. Really, I swear.
2) They're sacrificing a long-cooldown Snare resistance ability for sustained and reliable CC and defensive abilities (trap talents, Det, Scatter Shot) as well as additional offensive abilities (Silencing Shot).
3) Even if none of the above were true, a snare resistance when you're range is "anything over five yards" rather than "anything under five yards" is a whole different ballpark.


I can assure you, most Hunters (no qualifier) are BM.


Point. I should have continued the original qualifier of "on Arena teams" that you started with, rather than assuming you'd continue the logical extension of my point. My mistake; assuming intelligence on your part at this point was quite stupid of me.

EDIT: Split into two posts; quote pyramid broke the quote tags.

Edited, Mar 13th 2008 7:21pm by RPZip

Edited, Mar 13th 2008 7:21pm by RPZip

Edited, Mar 13th 2008 7:22pm by RPZip
#94 Mar 13 2008 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good

Quote:
Quote:
It's in an entirely different ballpark, so attempting to translate experience from one into experience from the other is... frustrating at best.


You know what? You've had about a half a dozen opportunities to answer the two simple questions posed of you. You have been unwilling (or incapable) of doing so in a way that doesn't confound your argument. You've pretty much failed in every way possible to clarify your point, and you've had more than enough chances to do so.


It's funny, because I've already addressed this point multiple times. You largely ignored it and did a good job of displaying your complete ignorance for the response you did give it, but hey, who am I to judge? You've done well for your inadequacies.

Quote:

I'm really quite sure that nobody thinks that CC magically turns your opponent from a threat and an active player into a punching bag you can stand there and spam your 2 button on until they die. It does, however, open up some possibilities; once the initial stunlock has worn off, it's possible to actually get away from the Rogue (even if not by any means easy or trivial) if you can get him off you for a few seconds.

It may not let you catch (or evade) someone the first time, but neither do Shadowstep, Intercept or Blink usually work the first time; they do, however, help to exhaust their options so you can actually catch up to them at some point. It's a tool, meant to be used in conjunction with your other abilities and Arena partners to succeed. By itself it means nearly nothing, but the same can be said of literally any skill. Where anything shines is when you start using it as a member of a team... and the fact is, at the moment most classes bring more to that team than the theoretically group-buffing Shaman.


To quoth your response;

Quote:
And then what? For Enhancement Shaman, that's useless. For Resto Shaman, if your group is leaving you to the Rogue, the group deserves to lose. The only spec that would benefit from any sort of CC would be Elemental and even then it's not like pre-2.3 Hunters where you had to get to range to be even remotely effective...you can still Shock and swing as Elemental, and a Rogue has so many tricks to get back in your face after you get to range once that anything short of a <= 6 second cooldown on the Shaman CC would be worthless.


I've bolded the especially stupid responses. It was hard not to bold the whole thing, mind, but I tried.

A way to stop someone from kiting you, while not strictly as ideal as (say) Intercept or Shadowstep, is immensely useful for Enhancement. Combined with instant Ghost Wolf it does let you catch up.

Moving on to Resto Shaman, I don't think anyone complains that Paladins (HoJ plus Bubble/BoP), Priests (Psychic Scream plus instant casts) or Druids (...c'mon, I think you can get this one) shouldn't have any way to help take the pressure off themselves. All of these abilities are wholly insufficient on their own, but when used in conjunction with your Arena teammates do serve as protection.

Resto Shaman rely completely on their teammates for defensive abilities, which means that they require either greatly more support or are in a very problematic position... all without actually bringing more to the table in PvP than any of the other three healing classes.

And finally, Elemental Shaman... and the truly hilarious part. Mostly about Rogues. I mean, getting away from a Rogue is far from trivial but they can (more or less) negate the first two or three attempts you use to keep them off someone. The solution to that isn't "well, if the first time you get them off you doesn't help just give up"... you keep applying the CC/escape functions until they're actually off you.

This isn't complicated stuff; it is stuff you pick up while actually PvPing. And thus why you have no clue what you're talking about, and are not qualified to make suggestions here... much less to state that the problems other people discuss are probably due to their lack of skill.

Cheers.
#95 Mar 13 2008 at 3:51 PM Rating: Default
***
2,396 posts
By the way, AureliusSir, you really need to stop using the sock puppet trick. Whatever friend or alternate account(s) you've got coming in here and rating all of your posts up to good... you're not fooling anyone. I know no one else in this thread or in the Shaman community as a whole is rating you up for the mindless drivel.
#96 Mar 13 2008 at 4:00 PM Rating: Default
Gaudion wrote:
By the way, AureliusSir, you really need to stop using the sock puppet trick. Whatever friend or alternate account(s) you've got coming in here and rating all of your posts up to good... you're not fooling anyone. I know no one else in this thread or in the Shaman community as a whole is rating you up for the mindless drivel.


You can check with an admin...it's no sockpuppet of mine, but I'll rate you down for sniveling about karma in the first place (even if it's mine you're sniveling about).
#97 Mar 13 2008 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,188 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
TheYardstick the Eccentric wrote:
Quote:

I'm not concerned about my reputation as perceived by a bunch of whiners. It's like the lot of you have thrown in the towel. You keep saying I have "no" experience. Did you forget your meds this morning, too? I may have limited experience, and I've gotten a taste of some things that work and some things that don't. Address the issue at hand, or STFU. Your posts in this thread have been nothing shy of fluffy pap, so make a worthwhile point, or move on. Your reputation...well...who the @#%^ are you, anyway?


Why hello thar 2 pieces PvP gear and 1445 Personal Rating.


What has that got to do with anything? More specifically, why are you joining the crowd of people who would rather look at my PvP experience than answer my questions?

Edit to add: What's your rating?

I did Arena for a grand total of maybe 6 weeks. When season 3 started, I cashed in my points for the S3 chest and haven't done any Arena since. The peanut gallery keeps referencing my rating and avoiding the questions. Like you're proving anything...

You don't need a 2200+ rating to figure out that adding CC to Shaman would make them OP. Very much OP. You'd be taking the ability to heal (whether it's useful in most situations or not...if you find it useful in 10% of your Arena matches, it's a noteworthy addition to the class) and adding the ability to dish out sick damage (if you can't, you suck) and the ability to buff a party in diverse ways (and if your best counter is that totems can be destroyed, that's one less attack focused on someone on your team) while wearing the second best class of armor defense wise to the ability to purge, interrupt/lockout casting every 8 seconds and now...CC?

Can you say, "We want it all give it to us now lest we deafen you with our QQ"?

You have RPZip alternating feet in his mouth saying that every class brings some sort of party buff, big or small, to arena, yet downplaying the benefit of healing. He references Trueshot Aura, which is a ranged AP buff as being a small but worthwhile contribution to an arena team while simultaneously downplaying the ability to dps like mad, buff selectively, heal, purge, and anything else you can think of to bring to the table. Oh ya...and since nobody has brought it forward yet...what about Bloodlust/Heroism? Show me a class that has anything even remotely on the scale of that kind of party buff and I might give you some leeway. Otherwise, can you say strawman argument?

So get over the rating and get to the point, or sod off.

What I'm getting from the QQ is that Shaman have all of these things to bring to the table, and everyone seems to know it, so they lock down and destroy the Shaman. WTF is the rest of your team doing? Being the uber-leet solo lulz me kill artists that so many WoW players fancy themselves to be? Or are they building a strategy around knowing that many teams they go up against are going to go after you first? How the hell is that Rogue stunlocking you if you've got 1/2/4 other people in the Arena with you that could be CCing/FFing that Rogue as soon as he appears? Guess what: ANY class that receives the brunt of a focused attack isn't going to last long, especially in 3v3 or 5v5. That's the nature of the game. WTF is being able to CC one of them going to do? If they, as a group, decide that they want you dead, chances are you're going to die. End of story.

And finally, the fact that has been reiterated several times:

You have no CC. Blizzard has announced no plans to give you CC. Get over it. Figure out something else.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 11:35pm by AureliusSir

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 11:38pm by AureliusSir


Aurelius, your 1445 Rating showed me one thing that basically ended any credibility you have. You know nothing of what real Arena is like. Real teams start popping up at 1800+, anything before that is mere cannon fodder. The sad part is, Shamans can barely make it past the cannon fodder stage of Arena, because that is basically all we are.

Your "fact" is no fact at all, CMs have hinted numerous times that we might get a CC in WotLK, I don't want to spend 7 more months in the sh*tter though, same with the rest of the community.

Also Aurelius, the group dynamics are MUCH more different in the PvP part of the game. Group dynamics are more focused towards CC, anti-CC, and survivability, all departments in which Shaman lack.

Quit bringing up the same thing and beating the dead horse, I have yet to see you even try to refute my points and you just keep bringing up the same points I refuted.

Edited, Mar 13th 2008 5:30pm by TheYardstick
#98 Mar 13 2008 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,188 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
RPZip wrote:
Quote:


So 4 weeks of Arena experience and you had...what for a rating? No really...you and your ilk who have been playing for years and look down your noses at people who don't have the playtime you do like they're somehow lesser players are @#%^ing ridiculous.


Four weeks? I think I was hovering around 1700ish doing between ten and twenty games a week, without... you know, actually respeccing for PvP. That came later.

And guess what? Your Arena rating is still around 1450. It's been a good bit longer than four weeks at this point.


Actually, it hasn't. I haven't done a single arena match since S3 started. I've already mentioned that. Do a little reading before you fill in with your assumptions please.


Fallacy.

Personal Rating was introduced with S3, and if it was included before, was reset with S3.

Lying only hurts your credibility Aurelius.
#99 Mar 13 2008 at 4:50 PM Rating: Default
TheYardstick the Eccentric wrote:
Quote:

Actually, it hasn't. I haven't done a single arena match since S3 started. I've already mentioned that. Do a little reading before you fill in with your assumptions please.


Fallacy.

Personal Rating was introduced with S3, and if it was included before, was reset with S3.

Lying only hurts your credibility Aurelius.


If I did any matches, it was the week after S3 went live...the point still stands...people here are accusing me of having a 1445 rating in an active and current team. As far as I know, I'm still listed as a member of the 3v3 team I used to run with, but haven't done any arena in months. I haven't even used my Hunter for anything since I rolled on the realm where my Shaman is now, so kindly keep your condescension and accusations to yourself. Someone saw my personal rating and made an assumption, you saw my response and made an assumption. Assume less. Observe the facts more. You'll look less stupid for having done so. Right now, all you look like is someone waiting for one minor deal you can jump on to discredit me, which, just like RPZip, tells me you have inadequate faith in the crux of your argument.

So just let it go, eh? The fact...still...remains.

SHAMAN HAVE NO CC. SHAMAN ARE NOT SLATED TO RECEIVE CC ANY TIME SOON (IF AT ALL). SO QUIT YER ******** AND GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE.

Anyone can focus on the negative and use that as an excuse. Get into the @#%^ing solution and be a little bit imaginative in doing so or sod off.

Savvy?


Edited, Mar 13th 2008 5:51pm by AureliusSir
#100 Mar 13 2008 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
Aur....I got you something.

http://www.johntp.com/wp-content/uploads/stopposting.jpg
#101 Mar 13 2008 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
***
2,396 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
If I did any matches, it was the week after S3 went live...the point still stands...people here are accusing me of having a 1445 rating in an active and current team. As far as I know, I'm still listed as a member of the 3v3 team I used to run with, but haven't done any arena in months.

Whether you haven't played or you played and sucked, the result is the same. You are in absolutely no position to judge other peoples' skill and assume a lack thereof when you've not even remotely familiar with the subject material. RPZip has already stated this. Now I am stating it. Try to get it this time.

Quote:
Anyone can focus on the negative and use that as an excuse. Get into the @#%^ing solution and be a little bit imaginative in doing so or sod off.

And what solution, pray tell, would you suggest? Once gear, talents, and skill have been exhausted, the only thing left to asses is class balance.

There is not a complete lack of Enhancement Shaman in 2000+ teams because no one has taken the time to gear them up. There is not a complete lack of Enhancement Shaman in 2000+ teams because they all have crappy talent builds. There is not a complete lack of Enhancement Shaman in 2000+ teams because everyone else aside from you is unskilled with them.

Elemental Shaman aren't non-existent outside of 5v5 teams because, well, I mean, let's face it... people just must not feel like playing them in 2v2 and 3v3, right?

Resto Shaman are not the least-desireable healers in the arena because of a lack of personal hygene.

The options have been tried, re-tried, and exhausted. With the tools available to the class at present, Shaman have hit their ceiling, and it's a very, very low ceiling. No amount of skill, gear, or talent is going to change that.

Quote:
Savvy?

You are not Captain Jack Sparrow, and the second and third movies sucked anyways.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 151 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (151)