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#52 Mar 12 2008 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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1,188 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
TheYardstick the Eccentric wrote:

We have great buffs, we never get the chance to fully utilize them because we are too easily CC'd and have no "oh sh*t" button and have almost no buffs to add to other players that don't go away when we die.


The lot of you are maintaining the QQ without answering the questions.

What is a CC going to do for you that isn't going to offer not more than a temporary respite from the beating that will resume as soon as that CC wears off/is broken?

Answer that question.

If I go into a BG right now and get my *** routinely beat, it would be for one of the following reasons:

1) A more skilled player beat me.
2) I charged into a stupid situation outnumbered.
3) I received no support from my teammates (it happens more often than I care to recall).

That is all. I've played a class with remarkable CC potential in a Survival Hunter (deep enough into MM tree for Scatter Shot as well). In that case, a trap was a tool to get back to range, which is where I needed to be in order to do any kind of noteworthy damage. What good is getting to range for an Enhancement Shaman? I can see for Elemental Shaman, and definately for Resto...but it's a short term solution, and the suggestions for Shaman CC that seemed to receive mounds of applause was for pseudo-CC. "Kinda like cyclone only shorter duration." "Kinda like polymorph only shorter duration."

What everyone is overlooking is that just because it seems like a good idea to the playerbase, doesn't make it a good idea in Blizzard's eyes, and you can't do a @#%^ing thing about it.

I voiced my concern about Blizzard's decision to "undo the bug" that allowed Hutners to double trap...and with the next patch, they gave us back the ability to double trap.

Shaman ***** altogether too much about too many things for Blizzard to narrow any one thing down and give them what they want.

The QQ of the month is the lack of CC Shaman have. That's likely because they bring so many other things to the table in the hands of a skilled player/group that CC should be the least of their concerns. When I ran 3v3 with a Resto Shaman, one of our most effective tactics was for me (the Hunter0 to put a trap almost on top of our Shammy. Anyone got near her and they got a little surprise. It's called teamwork. It's called making sure the rest of your group understands what you bring to the table and what you sacrifice to bring it, and working some synnergy in the mix to allow their strengths to offset your weaknesses.

FFS...if you look at the arena teams on my realm (all categories)...you'd think people were queuing for Arena as PUGs. There are groups that perform well...I've seen more than one Shaman on my realm walking around in full Elemental/Enhancement Vengeful Gladiator gear. I also see people standing around Shattrath/Ogrimmar in droves spamming trade looking for 2v2 team or 3v3 team with the, "I need a team that doesn't suck" "I'm tired of teams that suck" "I need my points for this week." So you get your scrubs in Arena PUGs mashing keys with people they hardly know and then QQing that things don't work.

NO @#%^ING KIDDING THEY DON'T WORK.

So out of all of you here, one person has mentioned they have a 1700 rating as a Shaman in Arena because they have friends that they run arena with. "Marginally successful" is hardly the "useless" you QQ monkeys are spewing on an ongoing basis. So get off your hands, learn some people skills, find a team and stick with them, and learn to work together.

If Arena is that important to you that you're going to come that close to an anxiety attack because you have no CC, then sh*t or get off the pot. Do it right. Stop sucking and expecting Blizzard to make up for your ineptitude. Arena is a team sport, not a bunch of gung-ho e-peen stroking solo artists insisting that they be able to stand alone against the combined onslaught of the opposing team.


Aurelius, here's a few things you might have noticed.

BGs are not the epitome of competitive PvP and are not what we are trying to fix, so any points involving BGs are irrelevent to the discussion and, thus, are moot. Stop bringing them up.

Aurelius, another thing. I stated that 2s are the ONLY bracket where Enhancement Shaman are borderline viable, it's not nearly as teamwork based as you claim. Also, about group roles. I KNOW my group role, I've invested hours in studying my class and this is the first class I ever took past 30, the only I took to 60, and the only I took to 70. I've spent a large amount of time grouping, raiding, doing BGs, and Arenas, I'm pretty sure I know my place in a group.

I cannot exercise my group role because I am either stunned to death, silenced, or kept away from teammates, thus rendering my totems worthless. Not only that, but they only have 5 health (excluding lolStoneclaw) which makes them the only buff and class mechanic in the game that can be dispelled by a level 1. Not only that, but they are furthered faulted by a 1.5 sec GCD, which rakcs up to a 6sec GCD to put down 4, and THEY DIE WITH US! That situation is unique to Shaman. Each class has a buff that ALL specs have that does not die with the caster, with Shaman, you have to spec 41 points to get said castable buff.

I am a good player, I've figured out ways to beat every class one on one, but that's not the game anymore. I know quite a few tricks, like that GW blocks Sap. I know what abilities to use and when, and I know kill orders and everything we just don't have the tools to do well in large scale Arenas. Shamans are the least represented class for a reason. Every good players knows the massive amount fo faults they have and how they can only break CC once every two minute, 5 minutes with the outdated trinket.

What CC would do for us is possibly lock out a class that is a threat to us for a few seconds so we can actually do something before we get stunned. Also, we could use it as a way to distance ourselves from a target or catch up to a target that is kiting us.

Tell me Aurelius, what's your arena rating and honestly, what do know about end game Shaman when you are not even 70? The game is much more different on paper than it is when you actually play it.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 4:47pm by TheYardstick
#53 Mar 12 2008 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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569 posts
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On anothetr note, how was putting ms on flametounge weapon going to help us? Gimping enhancements CC? Elemental meleetard? Resto DPS? And the totem... an ms party buff that anyone can destroy for the entireparty.


/shakes head.

-50% healing is an extremely powerful PVP effect. One swing with 6 seconds of -50% healing is basically dealing extra damage in the form of healing prevention. The only time it's not amazing is if MS is already debuffed on the target.

Basically with +1500 healing a shaman could land two Healing Waves on a target in those 6 seconds (actually he can potentially land 3) for 7141 healing.

If you were Resto and your first melee attack basically did 3570 mana-less damage over 6 seconds, would you consider swinging at focus fire targets occasionally when they ran by?
#54 Mar 12 2008 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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1,188 posts
Pop.
#55 Mar 12 2008 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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It also doesn't release from CC effects, unlike Sprint which does.


You actually need Imp. Sprint for that, which most Rogues (SS Variants go Assassination/Subtlety) don't get these days.
#56 Mar 12 2008 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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1,245 posts
If you haven't noticed by now, Blizzard tries to make its changes as slow as possible. If the changes are too extreme,

EVERYONE ON THE OBOARDS AND BLOGS AND OTHER WOW FORUMS ALL SCREAM "OMIGOD U GUYZ R IDJITS TEH CLASS WUZ FINE!" AND THE OTHERS SCREAM, "WAT TIHS IZ NOTT ENUF!"

Blizzard obviously sees that there are problems with the shaman class. (They also addressed the problem that people had with warlock outdamaging them with no contest in PvE.) This is why they tried the Flametongue idea, this is why they put in Ghost Wolf's cast reduction, that's why they added movement-impairing-duration-reduction to Toughness, that's why they made Shamanistic Rage undispellable, that's why they reduced the mana cost of Earth Shield so reapplication is much less a drain.

But they also didn't want things to be too different as not to provoke the beast that is the player base.

The full benefit of the new Toughness still requires dropping 5 points into it, making it available for mainly enhancement shamans. Shamanistic Rage had flipped its mana-regen and duration so that CC is still a counter to it. Earth Shield dropped the amount of charges for simple balance. Ghost Wolf wasn't pushed so far as to have the same effects of a druid shapeshift.

Flametongue elicited those strong reactions, you saw. And that's why they pulled it out.




The shaman class needs changes. Blizzard is addressing those changes, but it's not very satisfactory to shamans in the way that they are. If they make the stronger changes which the shamans want, many other classes will cry out. So, I'd like to see a little more patience with Blizzard since they ARE trying to address shamans, 'cause frankly, it's either you or non-shamans, and I think the forums here can be a little more inclined on being the better people.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 8:46pm by Raglu
#57 Mar 12 2008 at 4:59 PM Rating: Default
RPZip wrote:
Quote:

If you're going to post a link to a thread, make sure it reinforces your point instead of defeating it. You claim I was bragging about a 1400 rating, where the first line in the threat you linked is pretty clear:


Look! Selective quoting!

"Even though my teammates are bad I can stay at 1450!" is bragging, incidentally. In any event, the primary point was that your Arena ratings... you know, suck?


So 4 weeks of Arena experience and you had...what for a rating? No really...you and your ilk who have been playing for years and look down your noses at people who don't have the playtime you do like they're somehow lesser players are @#%^ing ridiculous. You're laughable. I hope your ignorance carries out into your day-to-day activities...oh wait...they must...or you'd have better things to do than raid 6-7 nights a week and beak off like an ADHD 7th grader off their meds.

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You don't even have enough experience to realize how little you know. It's okay; accept it. Not knowing about something isn't a crime.

Not knowing the first thing about something and commenting on it makes you a moron, though.


I'll tell you what I know: Shaman don't have CC. Shaman aren't slated to receive CC. That's all I need to know. Rather than QQ and QQ with a side of QQ and QQ for dessert, I'm hoping some of you scrubs can offer some strategies on how to make due with what I've got, but since you're drowning in your own QQ, I'll look elsewhere. That doesn't mean I'm not going to grill you to explain WTF you think CC is going to do for you that isn't going to prompt Blizzard to take something else away.

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"Theoretically" group buffing? Blizzard has already acknowledged that Shaman is one of the most complex/demanding classes to play to its full potential...when you're talking about a gaming population, many of which struggle in same-level PvE endeavors, and then provide them with a class like Shaman and all they can think of to help themselves is demanding an ability to MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP!!!...ya...weak...even for you.


Allow me to break this down for you; all classes are group buffing in a PvP sense. Yes, even Rogues (and Hunters). All abilities beyond straight damage work as a component of the group on the whole.


Not necessarily to the extent that Shaman can. Trueshot Aura? Great if you've got another non-MM Hunter on your team...@#%^ing useless as a "group buff" any other time. Expose Weakness has a better group benefit than TSA.

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Healing reduction and improved mobility on the way with 2.4. Are you still QQing?


Hi, moron!

You know they removed the FT Healing Debuff, right? I mean, you wouldn't be shooting your mouth off about the patch without actually knowing anything about the patch, right?


That's what I love about you...your people skills. Rather than just referencing that it was removed (because some of us have better things to do than check the patch notes daily), you have to make it personal.

Wanna make out?

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Wait a minute... have you already done that? Maybe in this thread, where you suggested that the patch notes indicated that Frost Nova wouldn't break CC.

Reading the patch notes helps when you're talking about the patch notes.


Actually, I didn't reference the patch notes. I was referencing another post that I saw here and was fairly certain Frost Nova was included. It wasn't...but the context of the discussion is valid. Cleaves and Swipes also defy the logic of selective targeting. I know you're probably some sickly uber-dork in mama's basement who hasn't ever done a real day's work, but if you've ever swung something heavy...like say...a sledgehammer or an axe...you'd know that you can't exactly micro-manage the arc.

I know you struggle with things like "context" and "facts" so I just thought I'd point that out to you.

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Most Hunters who aren't complete morons are MM in PvP, incidentally.

I mean, your main is a Hunter. You've at least hit level 70 on him, unlike your Shaman; you even have an awful PvP team on him, so you've at least been into Arenas a few times. How in the hell do you not know that?


I didn't add a qualifier to my statement. Most Hunters in arena are BM for one reason and one reason only: TBW. Yet...without that snare resistance they bring more to their...team? So what you're saying is...sacrificing snare resistance is...not necessarily a bad thing?

But RP! Look at all the Shamans QQing that they have no snare resistance!

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Please, Aurelius. You have no idea what you're talking about; none, zip, zero. You have (for the third time!) no PvP experience on your Shaman and very little general PvP experience of any kind. You don't know what the Patch Notes actually say - you don't even know how to PvP on your main. You're the kid failing at non-heroic BM talking about balancing Mage vs. Warlock damage in T6 gear.


Are you kidding me? I love non-heroic BM. It's easily one of my favorite dungeons. You're splitting hairs and nitpicking, and it just makes you look ignorant. Stick to the issues...I can assure you, with no doubts whatsoever, that you will never succeed at an argument that places your intelligence above mine.

I have no Arena experience on my Shaman, which is not the same as no PvP experience. I know full well how frustrating it is to be locked down and obliterated as a Shaman...which is something that doesn't happen when I've got a couple of people nearby who are playing as a team and intervene to give me some space to regroup. If I'm outnumbered, I die. If my teammates are sitting on their hands, I die. If I follow the tip of the spear in, I do exceptionally well (and the scoreboard at the end of a BG where I see teamwork reflects that.) I've seen clear evidence on a consistent and persistent basis that says if I've got a good team around me, my class isn't nearly so useless as your QQ would have me believe.

Arena is not the same as world PvP or BGs. I get that. I've raised questions here (namely and specifically: wtf is it that you think CC is really going to do for you, and given all of the things Shaman can do to an extent few other classes can, what would you be prepared to give up to get it?) and the best you can come up with is half a dozen variations on, "lulz I don't have to respond to those questions because here's the reason why I think you're not smart."

Grow. Up. Scrubby.


Edited, Mar 12th 2008 6:02pm by AureliusSir
#58 Mar 12 2008 at 7:30 PM Rating: Default
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2,396 posts
AureliusSir... the longer you drag this on the more irrepairable damage you are going to do to your reputation. If you stop now and disappear for a few months we might forget about you and give you another chance if you come back after you've had some actual experience with your Shaman. Maybe. If you're really, really lucky.
#59 Mar 12 2008 at 8:39 PM Rating: Default
Gaudion wrote:
AureliusSir... the longer you drag this on the more irrepairable damage you are going to do to your reputation. If you stop now and disappear for a few months we might forget about you and give you another chance if you come back after you've had some actual experience with your Shaman. Maybe. If you're really, really lucky.


I'm not concerned about my reputation as perceived by a bunch of whiners. It's like the lot of you have thrown in the towel. You keep saying I have "no" experience. Did you forget your meds this morning, too? I may have limited experience, and I've gotten a taste of some things that work and some things that don't. Address the issue at hand, or STFU. Your posts in this thread have been nothing shy of fluffy pap, so make a worthwhile point, or move on. Your reputation...well...who the **** are you, anyway?
#60 Mar 12 2008 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
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1,188 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
Gaudion wrote:
AureliusSir... the longer you drag this on the more irrepairable damage you are going to do to your reputation. If you stop now and disappear for a few months we might forget about you and give you another chance if you come back after you've had some actual experience with your Shaman. Maybe. If you're really, really lucky.


I'm not concerned about my reputation as perceived by a bunch of whiners. It's like the lot of you have thrown in the towel. You keep saying I have "no" experience. Did you forget your meds this morning, too? I may have limited experience, and I've gotten a taste of some things that work and some things that don't. Address the issue at hand, or STFU. Your posts in this thread have been nothing shy of fluffy pap, so make a worthwhile point, or move on. Your reputation...well...who the @#%^ are you, anyway?


Why hello thar 2 pieces PvP gear and 1445 Personal Rating.
#61 Mar 12 2008 at 10:28 PM Rating: Default
TheYardstick the Eccentric wrote:
Quote:

I'm not concerned about my reputation as perceived by a bunch of whiners. It's like the lot of you have thrown in the towel. You keep saying I have "no" experience. Did you forget your meds this morning, too? I may have limited experience, and I've gotten a taste of some things that work and some things that don't. Address the issue at hand, or STFU. Your posts in this thread have been nothing shy of fluffy pap, so make a worthwhile point, or move on. Your reputation...well...who the @#%^ are you, anyway?


Why hello thar 2 pieces PvP gear and 1445 Personal Rating.


What has that got to do with anything? More specifically, why are you joining the crowd of people who would rather look at my PvP experience than answer my questions?

Edit to add: What's your rating?

I did Arena for a grand total of maybe 6 weeks. When season 3 started, I cashed in my points for the S3 chest and haven't done any Arena since. The peanut gallery keeps referencing my rating and avoiding the questions. Like you're proving anything...

You don't need a 2200+ rating to figure out that adding CC to Shaman would make them OP. Very much OP. You'd be taking the ability to heal (whether it's useful in most situations or not...if you find it useful in 10% of your Arena matches, it's a noteworthy addition to the class) and adding the ability to dish out sick damage (if you can't, you suck) and the ability to buff a party in diverse ways (and if your best counter is that totems can be destroyed, that's one less attack focused on someone on your team) while wearing the second best class of armor defense wise to the ability to purge, interrupt/lockout casting every 8 seconds and now...CC?

Can you say, "We want it all give it to us now lest we deafen you with our QQ"?

You have RPZip alternating feet in his mouth saying that every class brings some sort of party buff, big or small, to arena, yet downplaying the benefit of healing. He references Trueshot Aura, which is a ranged AP buff as being a small but worthwhile contribution to an arena team while simultaneously downplaying the ability to dps like mad, buff selectively, heal, purge, and anything else you can think of to bring to the table. Oh ya...and since nobody has brought it forward yet...what about Bloodlust/Heroism? Show me a class that has anything even remotely on the scale of that kind of party buff and I might give you some leeway. Otherwise, can you say strawman argument?

So get over the rating and get to the point, or sod off.

What I'm getting from the QQ is that Shaman have all of these things to bring to the table, and everyone seems to know it, so they lock down and destroy the Shaman. WTF is the rest of your team doing? Being the uber-leet solo lulz me kill artists that so many WoW players fancy themselves to be? Or are they building a strategy around knowing that many teams they go up against are going to go after you first? How the hell is that Rogue stunlocking you if you've got 1/2/4 other people in the Arena with you that could be CCing/FFing that Rogue as soon as he appears? Guess what: ANY class that receives the brunt of a focused attack isn't going to last long, especially in 3v3 or 5v5. That's the nature of the game. WTF is being able to CC one of them going to do? If they, as a group, decide that they want you dead, chances are you're going to die. End of story.

And finally, the fact that has been reiterated several times:

You have no CC. Blizzard has announced no plans to give you CC. Get over it. Figure out something else.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 11:35pm by AureliusSir

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 11:38pm by AureliusSir
#62 Mar 12 2008 at 11:38 PM Rating: Default
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your intelligence above mine.


I would be happy to insult yours, but frankly I just can't seem to find any.
You really need to learn to reada post, not glance over it and miss what people are saying. O and I hope you know that surv/mm is the premier hunter arena spec right now. And you're so stubborn that you won't listen... Any idiot can wtfpwn at BGs. It takes class viability and pure skill + gear to survive in pvp. I have S1 and s2 shoulders with s3 gloves on my pvp set.... I'm a damned good pvper.
But I still get my *** handed to me while that rogue stunlocks me as the warlock DoTs... maybe if I could get out of that stun and get away I might survive long enough to heal my team. O trust me... I BGs I can pop NS anf my biggest heal, drop an earthbind and run behind a hill 9/10 they will forget about me and carry on. Not in arena...

If you compare Arena to your BG knowlegde then you obivously need to do many more arenas.

You have masters of the shaman forums against you...gaudion, yard, myself. And an allakhazam master... RPZip, you must be wrong about something. Make sense? Didn't think so.



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You don't need a 2200+ rating to figure out that adding CC to Shaman would make them OP. Very much OP. You'd be taking the ability to heal (whether it's useful in most situations or not...if you find it useful in 10% of your Arena matches, it's a noteworthy addition to the class) and adding the ability to dish out sick damage (if you can't, you suck) and the ability to buff a party in diverse ways (and if your best counter is that totems can be destroyed, that's one less attack focused on someone on your team) while wearing the second best class of armor defense wise to the ability to purge, interrupt/lockout casting every 8 seconds and now...CC?


Hello, someone ate a stupid muffin for lunch. Paladins have sick damage in pvp (ret) amazing heals (holy) and are the 2nd hardest class to kill as a healer, second only to resto druids. They all have a 6 second stun that can = a dead shaman anyday of the week. Paladins also have undispelable auras (I think undispellable correct me if I'm wrong) and equally amazing buffs. Why should they get their stun/CC? Because it balances them for pvp.

Do this, get your shaman to 70, arena some and tell us how much you own. Will you do that for us, sweetie?


Edited, Mar 13th 2008 3:58am by Draeneipally
#63 Mar 13 2008 at 2:28 AM Rating: Decent
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2,396 posts
AureliusSir wrote:
I'm not concerned about my reputation as perceived by a bunch of whiners.

Then why do you keep arguing your point, trying to prove that you're right and everyone else here is wrong? If you haven't noticed, there is not a single person here agreeing with you or even taking what you say seriously. Normally people would take notice of that and draw some conclusions from it...

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It's like the lot of you have thrown in the towel. You keep saying I have "no" experience. Did you forget your meds this morning, too? I may have limited experience, and I've gotten a taste of some things that work and some things that don't.

No, you haven't. You have experience (I use the term loosely) in world PvP and BG PvP, the two places that class-balance is the least apparent, and that's without even considering the fact that you're not 70 yet.

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Address the issue at hand, or STFU. Your posts in this thread have been nothing shy of fluffy pap, so make a worthwhile point, or move on. Your reputation...well...who the @#%^ are you, anyway?

The issue at hand is that you came in addressing aspects of the game that you have no business addressing because you have zero knowledge and experience concerning them, a fact all the more painfully apparent as you continue to argue on. You've insulted all the regulars here; people who by reputation are knowledgeable and experienced. Are you really arrogant enough to think that you're the first person to come along and play his Shaman correctly and that everyone else here has it wrong?

And you' better start caring about your reputation if you want to continue posting here, because on an online forum it defines you. RPZip is easily one of the most knowledgeable and experienced people we have on this forum by reputation; you can generally count on the things he says to be accurate. I may not always agree with what he has to say, but I respect it and him nonetheless. You might try doing the same.

Who I am is immaterial. I'd like to think that at the end of the day I, like some others, can be considered someone knowledgeable about my class, but I'll leave that up to my peers (excluding you) to decide.
#64 Mar 13 2008 at 4:37 AM Rating: Default
(new to site) I currently have a lvl 70 shaman full enhacement spec I'm geared ok, It's my first lvl 70 toon. In PvE questing is pretty good and instancing is great, but when it comes to PvP some problems come up, If I'm lucky I can pick-off low health and low-mana guys in a 1-on-1 certain classes beat without trying(Hunters mostly, some Paladins) Abilities like HoJ, Scatter Shot, Wyvern's sting, Frost traps, and Repentance gives them the edge. I love my shaman but PvP at is 70 bracket is pretty difficult at times. From what I read it's not just me. But I wanted to know if it's my gear, my skill, or is it just because Shamans aren't good for PvP because of our lack of CC abilities?

btw this is my armory profile... http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackwater+Raiders&n=Joja
#65 Mar 13 2008 at 5:29 AM Rating: Decent
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RPZip is easily one of the most knowledgeable and experienced people we have on this forum by reputation; you can generally count on the things he says to be accurate. I may not always agree with what he has to say, but I respect it and him nonetheless. You might try doing the same.

Who I am is immaterial. I'd like to think that at the end of the day I, like some others, can be considered someone knowledgeable about my class, but I'll leave that up to my peers (excluding you) to decide.


And he's also pretty damn funny.

And I think that ever since sunsoarer stopped posting that gaudion has become the main-brain in the shaman forums.
#66 Mar 13 2008 at 6:13 AM Rating: Good
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1,162 posts
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You don't need a 2200+ rating to figure out that adding CC to Shaman would make them OP. Very much OP


Quote:

What is a CC going to do for you that isn't going to offer not more than a temporary respite from the beating that will resume as soon as that CC wears off/is broken?


So what is it? A temporary solution that won't fix the problem or overpower?

#67 Mar 13 2008 at 7:06 AM Rating: Default
aureliusSir - you did bring up some good points. i respect you for that. i really do. but you're starting to make a fool out of yourself. i am not saying you are right or wrong.... just chill a little.

[quote=]What is a CC going to do for you that isn't going to offer not more than a temporary respite from the beating that will resume as soon as that CC wears off/is broken? [/quote]

i, for one, dont think shaman is in need of any cc. BUT i do think shaman needs some kind of ability to close and create distance.

cc offers a temporary respite, but many times that temporary respite is all you or your team needs to turn things around. even 1 sec can be crucial. even 1 sec can determine the outcome of a match. try take away, for example, hunter's ability to create distance or get rid of warrior's ability to close the distance. what will happen to them?

even if blizz gives a form of CC to shaman, how can you be so sure that shaman is going to be way overpowered? it totally depends on what kind of cc, the duration, the range, the cd.. etc.

what does the shaman community want to give up in exchange for a cc since it was mentioned that shaman brings a lot of buffs/utilities to the table? a live shaman brings buffs. a dead shaman takes the buffs along with him (well except for water walking and water breathing). i guess you can say that's the tradeoff. thats the 'give-up' that every shaman has been paying since the game first released. then there's the smaller problem of our totems are limited in range, static and 5hp. some only work on pulses.

right now, i believe every shaman wants be a little more viable in arena/pvp. we do need some changes...





#68 Mar 13 2008 at 8:16 AM Rating: Decent
Mistress Draeneipally wrote:

You have masters of the shaman forums against you...gaudion, yard, myself. And an allakhazam master... RPZip, you must be wrong about something. Make sense? Didn't think so.


RPZip has a long standing childish resentment towards me. He takes a certain adolescent glee in cutting down anything I've said simply because it's me who said it. He's not someone I would call respectable by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't put people on pedestals for much of anything, certainly the least of which being their accomplishments in an MMO. Anyone who comes here and says, "So-and-so may be a complete @#%^, but their information is good so they're cool in my books" is just the kind of Type B doormat that makes the world go 'round and they're entitled to that...but they'll never convince me to join them on the ground. Savvy?

As for your reputation...that's subjective. Let's leave it at that.

But having alluded to something, let's just say I don't immediately dismiss what you say simply because it's you who have said it. Your post about your "conversation" with a GM? Sheer idiocy. That's just a human/business relations faux pas on your part that anyone with any life skills and/or business accumen would have known not to make. You don't go after someone simply because they're associated in some way with the people you're pissed off with.

Here? This thread? Call it a personal peeve of mine to see people whining for something they don't have (and probably won't get). Maybe Blizzard will evaluate the situation and throw Shaman a bone in the form of some kind of CC...and when that happens, I can already predict the responses from the childish peanut gallery:

"omfg it's about time now what about...?!?!?!?!"
"Blizzard may have it out for us shammies but at least they gave us....."

The same idiotic, narrow, ignorant QQ that's running rampant through this forum and the O-boards. From strictly a business perspective, you never alienate a customer unless they're doing something harmful to your business, and Blizzard as a company has demonstrated more than enough business sense to know that the snivelling ******* that comprise the bulk of O-board posts are not representative of every person who plays a Shaman in WoW. So they aren't persecuting Shaman, they aren't neglecting Shaman. They've attended to other classes first because (if I'm not mistaken) Shaman represents the lowest % of the WoW population. Go after the larger population segments first to keep them happy and then follow up with the rest. It requires a bit of patience on everyone's part, but rather than acknowledge the situation for what it really is, you get the fully ignorant, childish (I'm using that word a lot in this post, aren't I?) monkeys winding up every manner of conspiracy theory and QQ to back up why they can't have what they want.

It's @#%^ing ridiculous.

So I've asked...and received no significant answer to...what exactly it is you think CC is going to do for you. You're downplaying or simply not acknowledging all of the other things that Shaman bring to a group, things that may only last until the Shaman dies (but would still provide a benefit for a few seconds), but touting a short-term CC (something else that would only last a few seconds) as the end-all and be-all of Shaman viability in PvP. And then instead of addressing that beyond token statements, it's on with the, "lulz you have no experience your rating sucks you're stupid RPZip gives good head so we love him" bit.

So I'll say it again...if all your posts are to contain is, "you don't know what you're talking about because you're not doing Arena with your Shaman" you're wasting your time. Address the @#%^ing issues. That's what real grownups do...they address the issues, not seek alternative means to devalue the conversation.

Savvy?

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You don't need a 2200+ rating to figure out that adding CC to Shaman would make them OP. Very much OP. You'd be taking the ability to heal (whether it's useful in most situations or not...if you find it useful in 10% of your Arena matches, it's a noteworthy addition to the class) and adding the ability to dish out sick damage (if you can't, you suck) and the ability to buff a party in diverse ways (and if your best counter is that totems can be destroyed, that's one less attack focused on someone on your team) while wearing the second best class of armor defense wise to the ability to purge, interrupt/lockout casting every 8 seconds and now...CC?


Hello, someone ate a stupid muffin for lunch. Paladins have sick damage in pvp (ret) amazing heals (holy) and are the 2nd hardest class to kill as a healer, second only to resto druids. They all have a 6 second stun that can = a dead shaman anyday of the week. Paladins also have undispelable auras (I think undispellable correct me if I'm wrong) and equally amazing buffs. Why should they get their stun/CC? Because it balances them for pvp.


Ret Paladins are not on par with Shaman dps potential. Period. You can have your "stupid muffin" back...I didn't want it in the first place. A Ret Paladin is going to Crusader Strike, seal, and judge, and swing their melee weapon. Consecration is not what I would consider to be enormous damage, and even Retribution Aura is a pittance for the most part. Hammer of Justice is on a cooldown, and if a Pally is sealing and judging Justice to keep you stunned, they're cutting into their overall damage potential for doing so. In addition, Ret Pallies have no reliable spell interrupts, their buffs are nothing near what a Shaman can bring to the table (BoK or Bloodlust...which would you prefer?), and they have no ranged offensive ability. That all you mentioned is their damage potential is telling...try using some of the other tricks in your bag and make sure your team is working with you so that you have a chance to use them and then come back and QQ, okay "sweetie"?



Edited, Mar 13th 2008 9:26am by AureliusSir
#69 Mar 13 2008 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
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2,396 posts
Well, we tried... At this point I think it's safe to just rate him down without even bothering to read his posts and move on, which I recommend everyone do. Arguing with him is just going to prompt another response, which no one wants or needs to see. In fact, I think it's to the benefit of the board that we just let this thread as a whole die out.
#70 Mar 13 2008 at 9:19 AM Rating: Default
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1,256 posts
There is a video out that shows all the classes complaints and ths is one of the biggest ones.

They also had a way to fix it.

A CC that was 5 points in every one of their talent tree's and should be labeled_"Bask in my glory"
#71 Mar 13 2008 at 9:27 AM Rating: Default
Well, I wouldnt midn losing eye of the storm in the ele tree, or anticipation in the enhancement tree, shamans have so many useless talents its funny.

Quote:
But having alluded to something, let's just say I don't immediately dismiss what you say simply because it's you who have said it. Your post about your "conversation" with a GM? Sheer idiocy


I'm sorry, but I guess you fail at reading comprehension. And just plain reading. I was conversing to a GM about the shaman status, not in anyway saying "OMFG LULZ!!! YOU IS A IDIOT GIVE MI A CC!!!"

But I'm done with you, you should take a hiatus from the shaman forums. We would all love that,
#72 Mar 13 2008 at 9:30 AM Rating: Default
Wowish wrote:
aureliusSir - you did bring up some good points. i respect you for that. i really do. but you're starting to make a fool out of yourself. i am not saying you are right or wrong.... just chill a little.

AureliusSir wrote:
What is a CC going to do for you that isn't going to offer not more than a temporary respite from the beating that will resume as soon as that CC wears off/is broken?


i, for one, dont think shaman is in need of any cc. BUT i do think shaman needs some kind of ability to close and create distance.

cc offers a temporary respite, but many times that temporary respite is all you or your team needs to turn things around. even 1 sec can be crucial. even 1 sec can determine the outcome of a match. try take away, for example, hunter's ability to create distance or get rid of warrior's ability to close the distance. what will happen to them?

even if blizz gives a form of CC to shaman, how can you be so sure that shaman is going to be way overpowered? it totally depends on what kind of cc, the duration, the range, the cd.. etc.

what does the shaman community want to give up in exchange for a cc since it was mentioned that shaman brings a lot of buffs/utilities to the table? a live shaman brings buffs. a dead shaman takes the buffs along with him (well except for water walking and water breathing). i guess you can say that's the tradeoff. thats the 'give-up' that every shaman has been paying since the game first released. then there's the smaller problem of our totems are limited in range, static and 5hp. some only work on pulses.

right now, i believe every shaman wants be a little more viable in arena/pvp. we do need some changes...


wait.... i am not in blue. i guess my opinion doesnt matter....
#73 Mar 13 2008 at 9:38 AM Rating: Default
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1,256 posts
Gaudion wrote:
AureliusSir wrote:
Hunter has Concussive Shot/Wing Clip -> Shaman has Frost Shock
Hunter has Frost Traps -> Shaman has Earthbind Totem
Hunter has Freeze Trap -> Shaman has no immobilizing CC
Hunter has good dps at range -> Shaman has fantastic dps at melee/range (spec dependant)
Hunter can't heal himself/others -> Shaman can heal themself/others

See how that "balances"?

That may sound nice on paper and in your head, but in reality those things don't balance.

Frost Shock blows. You should know this if you PvP at all. It's the weakest snare in the game and is only usable if you're inside of 20 yards. Again, you sound like you're Enhancement, so you should know this. Frost Shock is not going to let you keep any melee from getting in your face, nor is it going to help you close the distance on other classes who can quite literally kite you indefinitely, rendering you completely harmless.

Earthbind Totem and Frost Trap would be comparable except for the fact that EBT can be destroyed. You get caught in a Frost Trap and you're... well... caught in a Frost Trap. Then you have to consider talents, which make Frost Trap way better. In any case, this is a stupid comparison.


I would like to point out that any melee class that wants to you has a way to close that gap your worried about no matter what.

Look at this for a moment. I don't care what you are trying to use any slowing effect move. Cold effect/ frost shock/daze/ conc shot/frost trap/Hamstring/wingclip/crippling poison.

Ok looking at these... check this out. for poisons, shaman's druids and palis can dispell poisons

for cold effects true melee classes have movement inhancing abilities. Charge/intercept for warriors , sprint for rogues, BoF for palis. druids have shifting out of that stuff and they can use a charge ability as well.

Getting away. You can just as easily shock someone as I can wingclip them in fact you can shock the runners so you can catch up to them as enhancement or shock and run.

As a MM hunter. I conc you, You shock me... your shock is going to make it harder for me to do what I do best as compared to you who can still melee very well or cast on me in a standing location.
#74 Mar 13 2008 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
Sorry, no. You've apparently never played a shaman. Why would I waste my GCD to dispell poisons when I need to heal myself? Either way Im F8cked. And frost shock is a 40% snare where as wing clip is a 60% I believe. Please make sure you know about the class before posting.
#75 Mar 13 2008 at 9:54 AM Rating: Default
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1,256 posts
It's ok Wowish I don't think his problem was with you.
#76 Mar 13 2008 at 9:56 AM Rating: Default
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1,256 posts
that was not the point Mistress. The point is you CAN do things to help you. I have played a shammy a bit. Didn't like the totem thing so I stopped.

I just saw a post that reminded me of the vid I saw online and wanted to see what ideas people were thinking up now =P
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