Thread moved to another postFollow

Yes, your opinion of me is so very clearly my primary motivating factor.



Hey, remember this thread? The search function and a good memory for pure, unadulterated idiocy is such a wonderful thing.

That thread was a fun read, by the way. Good times... good times.

I mean, they were pretty stupid times for you. Obscenely, hilariously stupid times. But funny for everyone else.



Because other people bring things to a GROUP and their combined GROUP strengths and PERSONAL strengths outweigh what the SHAMAN brings in anything other than 5v5, and even that's primarily because there's enough threats that you can't just pile onto the Shaman and burn him/lock him into the ground without exposing yourself elsewhere. Elemental Shaman can do okay in 3v3 in a similar group design; Warrior, Ele Shaman, Disc Priest opens you up to a beatdown if you ignore the Shaman or Burning if you ignore the Priest, but that's just about the only viable combo and it's not even that superb.

I'm really quite sure that nobody thinks that CC magically turns your opponent from a threat and an active player into a punching bag you can stand there and spam your 2 button on until they die. It does, however, open up some possibilities; once the initial stunlock has worn off, it's possible to actually get away from the Rogue (even if not by any means easy or trivial) if you can get him off you for a few seconds.

It may not let you catch (or evade) someone the first time, but neither do Shadowstep, Intercept or Blink usually work the first time; they do, however, help to exhaust their options so you can actually catch up to them at some point. It's a tool, meant to be used in conjunction with your other abilities and Arena partners to succeed. By itself it means nearly nothing, but the same can be said of literally any skill. Where anything shines is when you start using it as a member of a team... and the fact is, at the moment most classes bring more to that team than the theoretically group-buffing Shaman.

And seriously, Feral Druids? The bane of all serious PvPers is Feral Druids? That's a new level of stupidity, even for you.

If you're going to post a link to a thread, make sure it reinforces your point instead of defeating it. You claim I was bragging about a 1400 rating, where the first line in the threat you linked is pretty clear:



So maybe if I let you go on long enough you'll just prattle on in your own way and defeat all of your points without me even trying. I know, I know...your life revolves around WoW. Your Warglaive (in your mind) speaks to how impressive a person you are. In some other minds, it speaks to how unimpressive the rest of your life must be. Your WoW accomplishments within the scope of the game may be impressive, but outside the scope of the game, they're meaningless.

Meaningless.

Read that again:

Meaningless.

And if that's all you've got going on for you, I pity you.

I mean, they were pretty stupid times for you. Obscenely, hilariously stupid times. But funny for everyone else.



And plenty of buffs are on the way for Shaman (most notably, Enhancement Shaman, but other specs as well). But no CC. So QQ some more that you're not getting what you want before you've tried working with what you've already got and are already getting.



And then what? For Enhancement Shaman, that's useless. For Resto Shaman, if your group is leaving you to the Rogue, the group deserves to lose. The only spec that would benefit from any sort of CC would be Elemental and even then it's not like pre-2.3 Hunters where you had to get to range to be even remotely effective...you can still Shock and swing as Elemental, and a Rogue has so many tricks to get back in your face after you get to range once that anything short of a <= 6 second cooldown on the Shaman CC would be worthless.



"Theoretically" group buffing? Blizzard has already acknowledged that Shaman is one of the most complex/demanding classes to play to its full potential...when you're talking about a gaming population, many of which struggle in same-level PvE endeavors, and then provide them with a class like Shaman and all they can think of to help themselves is demanding an ability to MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP!!!...ya...weak...even for you.



I didn't say they were the bane of all serious PvPers...oh wait...that's right...the only points of mine you'll respond to in a semi-intelligent manner are the ones you embelish. Get to the facts, or GTFO. Savvy?

no rogue who knows what they're doing uses ambush anymore, its dead.



Also, if your posting on a WoW forum about WoW, don't play the "i have a life card", because obviously you don't, or you wouldn't be on this thread.

The only thing a shaman has going for them is their group abilities, i don't know, but if everything i did had to revolve around being either raped or standing in the backline throwing pitiful heals out, i'd be pretty pissed off to.

I know how a rogue completely demolishes shaman, i have one...look in my sig.
and, unlike you, i've actually hit a 1700 rating, (not a HUGE thing, but if i did it with 2 peices of glad gear, your a joke), don't go into their forums when you obviously don't want anything good for their class and ***** that they don't need buffs. Yea, they bring great abilities to the table for groups, but, aren't druids supposed to be a hybrid class also? they nuke harder than shaman all day long, heal around pillars, instantly dispell any movement impairing effect in addition to having the ability to be a "tank-healer" or a "stealth-Healer". All of the other hybrid classes outweigh shaman so much that honestly, i have no idea why they shouldn't get a couple of buffs, but of course, your talking for your hunter. If shaman get some buffs, your Lawlcaneshot might actually become obsolete when they start sticking their e-peens down your throat.

Aurelius, as an Enhancement Shaman who is rapidly progressing in Arenas (net gain of 100 rating in 2s this week), I have to say something. I'm sick of being borderline viable in only one bracket and desirable in none, I'm only in a good situation because I have friends. You want to know why Enhancement Shamans are not wanted in high-end Arenas? We can't keep ourselves alive well, we only have one way to escape CC, and most importantly our buffs die with us. Not only that, but I have to blow 4 GCDs to get my group buffs down, in that time I am often silenced or CC'd in some way when it comes to 5s. Not only that, but my buffs are dispellable by a level 1 player.

We have great buffs, we never get the chance to fully utilize them because we are too easily CC'd and have no "oh ****" button and have almost no buffs to add to other players that don't go away when we die.

The lot of you are maintaining the QQ without answering the questions.

What is a CC going to do for you that isn't going to offer not more than a temporary respite from the beating that will resume as soon as that CC wears off/is broken?

Answer that question.

If I go into a BG right now and get my *** routinely beat, it would be for one of the following reasons:

1) A more skilled player beat me.
2) I charged into a stupid situation outnumbered.
3) I received no support from my teammates (it happens more often than I care to recall).

That is all. I've played a class with remarkable CC potential in a Survival Hunter (deep enough into MM tree for Scatter Shot as well). In that case, a trap was a tool to get back to range, which is where I needed to be in order to do any kind of noteworthy damage. What good is getting to range for an Enhancement Shaman? I can see for Elemental Shaman, and definately for Resto...but it's a short term solution, and the suggestions for Shaman CC that seemed to receive mounds of applause was for pseudo-CC. "Kinda like cyclone only shorter duration." "Kinda like polymorph only shorter duration."

What everyone is overlooking is that just because it seems like a good idea to the playerbase, doesn't make it a good idea in Blizzard's eyes, and you can't do a ******* thing about it.

I voiced my concern about Blizzard's decision to "undo the bug" that allowed Hutners to double trap...and with the next patch, they gave us back the ability to double trap.

Shaman ***** altogether too much about too many things for Blizzard to narrow any one thing down and give them what they want.

The QQ of the month is the lack of CC Shaman have. That's likely because they bring so many other things to the table in the hands of a skilled player/group that CC should be the least of their concerns. When I ran 3v3 with a Resto Shaman, one of our most effective tactics was for me (the Hunter0 to put a trap almost on top of our Shammy. Anyone got near her and they got a little surprise. It's called teamwork. It's called making sure the rest of your group understands what you bring to the table and what you sacrifice to bring it, and working some synnergy in the mix to allow their strengths to offset your weaknesses.

FFS...if you look at the arena teams on my realm (all categories)...you'd think people were queuing for Arena as PUGs. There are groups that perform well...I've seen more than one Shaman on my realm walking around in full Elemental/Enhancement Vengeful Gladiator gear. I also see people standing around Shattrath/Ogrimmar in droves spamming trade looking for 2v2 team or 3v3 team with the, "I need a team that doesn't suck" "I'm tired of teams that suck" "I need my points for this week." So you get your scrubs in Arena PUGs mashing keys with people they hardly know and then QQing that things don't work.

NO ******* KIDDING THEY DON'T WORK.

So out of all of you here, one person has mentioned they have a 1700 rating as a Shaman in Arena because they have friends that they run arena with. "Marginally successful" is hardly the "useless" you QQ monkeys are spewing on an ongoing basis. So get off your hands, learn some people skills, find a team and stick with them, and learn to work together.

If Arena is that important to you that you're going to come that close to an anxiety attack because you have no CC, then **** or get off the pot. Do it right. Stop sucking and expecting Blizzard to make up for your ineptitude. Arena is a team sport, not a bunch of gung-ho e-peen stroking solo artists insisting that they be able to stand alone against the combined onslaught of the opposing team.

No, actually... they're not. MM/SV is the preferred arena spec. I guess I was wrong earlier. You're still finding new ways to prove that you don't have a clue.

My Shaman is still extremely young so I can't speak from experience but I regularly PvP with a friend of mine who is an Enhancement Shaman.

His biggest complaint is probably about being kited or not being able to escape. I know how much of a pain in the *** this can be especially when it comes to Hunters. As a 60 Rogue I regularly find myself being kited by Hunters with no escape options due to the pet bug.

At the same time I know how easy it is to deal with Shaman at 70 with my lock. The only Shaman I dislike coming across is a Resto Shaman and thats more of an annoyance then an actual concern, much like a Pally.

Anyway, this got me to thinking. What about adding some type of speed boost and/or movement impairing removal ability much like the Rogues talented sprint bonus? Maybe add it to Shamanistic Rage or a separate talent all together?

The problem I see with balancing Shaman is that you have the choice of 3 very different roles based on spec, much like a Druid. (Let's not get started on Druids) Because of this, balancing the class through "spells" is going to be extremely difficult. The only way to do it properly would be through the talents and adding talents would in turn require the removal of talents. Either that or add abilities to existing talents without making them overpowered. Finally, any added talents would have to be far enough into the tree to avoid the hybrid build as Blizz has shown Rogues time and time again that the hybrid build is not acceptable.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 7:43am by Raolan

I would rather see undispellable 41 pt. talents than CC...

I think it would be cool to see an upgraded form of Ghost wolf. We get Ghost wolf pretty early on, perhaps after 65, we could get lightening wolf, or "Insert bad **** sounding element" wolf. That is affected by the ghost wolf talent option that gives you a 100% speed boost but only for say 6-8 seconds?

You still shape shift and its not as long as the rouges I don't think. It still keeps the shaman flavor and has its place in PVP without replacing one of our earlier abilites.

Look! Selective quoting!

"Even though my teammates are bad I can stay at 1450!" is bragging, incidentally. In any event, the primary point was that your Arena ratings... you know, suck? You have zero relevant experience, and absolutely no background to suggest that other people's problems are due to a lack of skill. To reiterate;



You don't even have enough experience to realize how little you know. It's okay; accept it. Not knowing about something isn't a crime.

Not knowing the first thing about something and commenting on it makes you a moron, though.



*yawn* You've tried this tact before; it's not terribly interesting. Spice it up (suggesting an Oedipus complex is a good start) or give it up.



Are you serious? Wow. Just... wow.

Like I said before; everything you do is part of a team. Psychic Scream doesn't really do anything by itself either - nothing does. It's when you use it in combination with your teammates that any ability is actually, you know, useful. Once you have ENOUGH CC abilities, you can stack them together to burn through the ways people have to avoid them.

This truly isn't a complex theory. How in the world are you not understanding this?

Maybe things look differently if you've never been on a even halfway-decent Arena team.



Allow me to break this down for you; all classes are group buffing in a PvP sense. Yes, even Rogues (and Hunters). All abilities beyond straight damage work as a component of the group on the whole.

So even if your class is best at strictly buffing your teammates, so what? You still bring less to the group than other classes. Hunters provide damage and a global snare ('buffed easy escape'), in addition to decent fire-and-forget mana drains, dispels and a MS effect. Even though their only 'group buff' in a PvE sense is TSA, their group contribution is enormous.

Stop thinking in terms of PvE and start thinking in terms of PvP when you talk about PvP. I know it's hard for you, since you don't know the first thing about PvP, but then you might want to let the people who actually have a clue talk.



Hi, moron!

You know they removed the FT Healing Debuff, right? I mean, you wouldn't be shooting your mouth off about the patch without actually knowing anything about the patch, right?

Wait a minute... have you already done that? Maybe in this thread, where you suggested that the patch notes indicated that Frost Nova wouldn't break CC.

Reading the patch notes helps when you're talking about the patch notes.



Most Hunters who aren't complete morons are MM in PvP, incidentally.

I mean, your main is a Hunter. You've at least hit level 70 on him, unlike your Shaman; you even have an awful PvP team on him, so you've at least been into Arenas a few times. How in the hell do you not know that?

Please, Aurelius. You have no idea what you're talking about; none, zip, zero. You have (for the third time!) no PvP experience on your Shaman and very little general PvP experience of any kind. You don't know what the Patch Notes actually say - you don't even know how to PvP on your main. You're the kid failing at non-heroic BM talking about balancing Mage vs. Warlock damage in T6 gear.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 5:32pm by Draeneipally

1. For DPS Shaman it's not just "one or two classes". For them, it's more like there's maybe one or two classes they actually stand a chance against, and everything else owns them by default.

2. Try maining a Shaman and then tell us how fine we are.

3. She didn't specify 1v1. Getting your taint handed to you by Rogues and Warriors is just as graphic in 2v2 and 3v3 as it is in duels, especially since you're also getting it handed to you by that Warlock, Frost Mage, Hunter, etc...


If there exist any options in her poll beyond nerfing the other eight classes in the game down to our level I'd love to hear them.