Why Lawl Ret?Follow

lol, i'm hardly stuck here. i just got here. i'm sorry i didn't jump straight from black morass to black temple. last i checked standard progression was to get through regulars then karazhan/heroics then move on to gruul's etc. so when i'm still in kara in a year, then i'm stuck... well, that'll be more because at best i could get to gruul's before i go to iraq... oh well.

by the way i was serious when i asked about improved SotC being worthwhile in a holy spec. at this point the only toon i have that wasn't completely wiped out by the hacker is my holy pally.... so at least until camila gets her gear back i'm healing.... be nice to get an answer from someone as leet as yourelf lol :) oh, and personal insults are pretty dumb when you have such a broad base of experience to base your arguements on. calling us "scrubs" just cause we're not at your level yet is pretty pointless.

bawbaag - you are my hero.

http://wowwebstats.com/htujb56254213?s=12547-12837


WoW web stats, a look at Teron Gorefiend.


I'd be interested in seeing a similar thing from those supporting ret, if only to prove that its not so much that Ret as awesome, as it is that your other dps is bad.

Edited, Mar 14th 2008 6:21pm by bodhisattva

probably because it is discussed on here daily and falsely glorified daily.

so, bodh.... i asked this awhile ago... you've posted several times since then without answering... i'm beginning to wonder if you post here to help or merely to argue and show your superiority.... i really was curious.. perhaps you could post your pallies' armory link. your pally that alla says was last updated on here was only 48 a few days ago and doesn't come up in the armory anyway.... i'd be interested to see the spec a BT healer is using.

Yes I do.


17,000 posts over 4 or more years will do that, you can respond to **** players for so long before the contempt is replaced with a mere going through the motions.


Oh and thanks for the retort on my behalf RPzip, when there was only one set of footprints in the sand, that is when you carried me /tear/


Bodhisattva - Azgalor - Odyssey. I am the least geared pally in the raid, if that makes you feel any better about yourself, but hey a boy has to get some fresh air and mingle every now and then. If I had logged on hunter I used to play with on Shadow Council in the last year I could link that, or my Warlock on Mal'ganis that was a lock back when there was no horror effect on death coil. Hows about my 70 Assassin I raided with on EQ2 or my 50 Necromancer in DAOC, or 110 Progen Warrior in EnB or my Deep Space fighter in Eve online.

Anything to help boost my street cred as a player who actually has a fracking clue as to what he is talking about rather than getting stuck on Moroes.

Ok fair enough, you know more than I do. I mentioned what level of content I was on so I don't know about Najentus, not there yet...

I'm not going to make any further arguments here other than reiterate what I was saying before, perhaps I was misunderstood. Outside of Tanks, Healers and CC no other class is essential. Sure, maybe for a particular boss you might need a certain class but I'm refering to raiding in general.

Without enough tanks you can't raid. Without enough Healers you can't raid. Without CC on the trash that I've seen, might as well just give them the gold for repairs. Anything else I would consider a luxury, a bonus.

If I'm wrong here... ok... please share your thoughts. Perhaps I am making false assumptions or I am missing something. May I just ask that if you do so, please do it in a civilised manner and if all possible without the condescending attitude as I have done the same.

This is a discussion forum after all is it not?

...................wow.

Well, where do I begin?

First off, I have never heard "17,000 posts in 4 years", "Level 70 WoW something something", "70 Assassin on EQ2", "50 Necromancer on DAOC", "110 Progen Warrior", and "Deep Space fighter on Eve online" in the same breath as "a boy has to get some fresh air and mingle every now and then" before.

And second, I'm not sure if all that was supposed to amaze me, or make me very afraid to imagine the person on the other side of that posting...

lol, whats this "sleep" you speak of?

oh and i asked my mom... she said you tried but 2 inches hard was pretty unimpressive....

also i finally had made it to your armory this morning (got sidetracked cause i was duty NCO yesterday - sorry my real life is far less fun than your juvenile college manwhore stories). i noticed neither you nor any of the other 3 pallies in your raid have improved SotC (not even your prot pally).... i was just wondering about that. since i'm stuck playing holy for awhile i'd be curious to know why not.

I had to have it out with another poster on the Shaman boards a couple months ago because he was out and about claiming that Enhancement Shaman are vastly superior to Rogues, who were jealous by comparison, because of their buffs.

Honestly? In this math-heavy, theory-driven, number-crunching world we live in today, personal DPS is severely underrated. Whenever I see a spreadsheet showing the colossal amount of damage a 1% to-hit buff (I'm being facetious, but you get my point) is going to bring to a five-man group in a raid, I have to step back and sigh.

There's just so much assumption. Way too much theory and way too little practice. Your entire raid is not going to have a constant 3% to crit, no matter how good your Ret Pally is. Windfury is not going to be up all the time. You might run out of range of the totem, everyone might be moving to avoid a boss mechanic, the Shaman might be OOM, he might be too busy to re-cast it once the totem despawns, hell... he might just forget about it for 30 seconds because he's got so much else going on.

Rogues and Warriors are going to out-strip a Ret Pally in damage on fights where it's long enough to matter. On trash mobs? Yeah, sure, the Ret Pally might keep up or even beat them. Unlikely, but possible. But does it even matter? Did he make a difference? Not really. How about on that 10, 15, 20-minute boss fight? Did his lack of output cause a wipe? I dunno, how close was it? He very well might have.

A Rogue in my guild commented last week that he really noticed a difference because he wasn't in my group and didn't get Windfury. The kicker? He topped the meter with Windfury and he still topped it without it, he just had to, and I quote, "Work a little harder."

Full-circle back to Retribution, and honestly... as I said in the last Ret thread, I would not at all mind taking one with me as long as his personal DPS held up. And the thing that keeps me from supporting Ret here on this forum is because I have yet to actually see, with my own eyes, a Ret Pally put out a satisfactory amount of DPS.

ok, so what you just said was, we gave up 3% crit raid wide for 30% silence reduction which ..... in 5 mans i can totally understand that. so random question on that.... you said:



unless i'm mistaken this only applies to the 5 persons that are actually in the druids group. so 5% to 5 people > than 3% to 20 people? i think i must be doing bad math again cause when i calculate that i get something like 25 > 60 which um, clearly can't be what you mean to say. oh and you also said:



so apparenlty our dps is similar according to you. so similar dps, same dps boost to our group (3% crit + 2% damage = 5% for our group) and 3% more dps boost to the rest of the raid + we refresh the healers JoW and JoL allowing them to remain safely at max healing range while the raid group gets the benefit of greatly increased mana regen and admittedly negligible assists w/ healing from JoL (unless healers like being closer in higher lvl raids)

battle rez is handy, but a resto druid can bring that. same for inervate. and a tanking druid can clearly bring the 5% crit boost too....

i can't argue too much about shammies. i knew any shammy could bring WF totem, i hadn't realized that they had a talent to make it considerably better. that was an oversight on my part. so WF totem is great than 5% dps boost for the melee group he's in... still does nothing for the rest of the raid. also tremor totems and reincarnation are both abilities a resto shammy can bring just as easily... still would want a shammy in my melee group as ret so i even think that's a weak arguement....

blood frenzy is clearly something another dps warrior couldn't bring. you're right. again, i know i don't know everything. how many groups bring arms warriors? i thought DW was the raid spec of choice... oh and 4% to phyical damage is only greater than 3% raid wide crit if 3/4 of your damage being done is physical. if you have mages and locks and shadow priests and any other class that has spell damage attacks the warrior ability is minimized where the ret's is still helpful. oh, and the 20% threat reduction of an arms warrior that could bring blood frenzy isn't as good as the 30% threat reduction of a ret pally. a Fury warrior could have the same threat reduction, but unless there's something i'm missing they really don't bring utility that a prot warrior couldn't bring if it was that needed.

sorry it took so long to reply about this. i realized my knowledge may be incomplete. and in some cases it was, but still i don't think any of these offer more overall boost to the raid than ret. perhaps equal or situationally better (clearly a raid w/ 15 rogues would rather have an arms warrior than a ret pally for instance) but i don't think you could say that they're better. i would obviously consider bringing any of these classes for what they offer and (shocking as it might be to you) would consider them equally with bringing a ret pally based on skill and gear level. i'm not soo anti any one class that i would bring a lesser skilled/geared ret instead of that class just because i don't think X spec is any good. i'd even bring a crit chicken and put them in the group w/ the pally healers for the 5% crit chance on heals if i thought they could still put out competent dps.

i just wish i could log in now and actually play my ret. :( oh well, off to do some healing though. and i think that when i'm past kara on my healer i'll prolly grab imp SotC. seems like it would make more sense than something that is unnecessary.

if anything i said was wrong due to a gap in my knowledge (i'm sure there's a few gaps still - i don't have too much time to research every aspect of WoW), pls let me know. might not change my mind about ret, but i do like knowing when i've made a mistake.