Why Lawl Ret?Follow

kittens are so cute! ^^
sunshine is so warm on my skin . . .

im so happy . . . oh wait, i just shat myself. . .

First off I'll just say that I play Holy (ret to 70 and respec) and in our typical 25 man setup we will have 4 pallys. 2 holy, 1 tank, 1 ret. Our ret pally is the only one in the guild so he gets any and all of the ret plate drops that he wants and is thus pretty well geared.

In terms of DPS, he is in the top 5 every single raid. He is also one of the first to die every boss encounter (that's more being melee than ret) so if he lived, would probably be top if not top most times. I wouldn't say he was better geared than anyone else, we are all pretty similar (T4/T5 gear) but he is very skilled.

I personally appreiciate that he can refresh my judgments so I don't have to keep running in and reapply. I like to keep at max range so my shiny armour doesn't get dirty :p The extra blessing, bubble, emergency healing, DI all have their uses.

If I had a choice, I'd pick a ret pally over a dps warrior.

bawbaag - thank you for providing a different perspective. I was hoping someone would chime with a more realistic perspective than a typical "u ret, so u suk n00b" rant.

My point is, sans the true lousy player who sucks playing any class let alone ret, retribution paladins have more use than most people give them credit for. It seems like the venom I read on these forums are pointed more towards bad players who happen to play Ret, instead of properly evaluating the class itself.

Pound for pound, as far as what each DPS class brings to a raid, you have to argue that ret brings a lot of value themselves. Argue these points if you wish:

fury/arms warrior

Pros: no mana dependence - can fight forever, well armored (can't be one shotted), can emergency tank if needed by pulling out a 1-hander and shield and changing stances
Cons: DPS output is generally less than other DPS classes, brings nothing else to the party

Rogue

Pros: insane DPS, ability to sap (CC), ability to stealth and scout
Cons: can be one shotted very easily, ability to sap (it's a non-combat CC, and only on humanoids), brings no other utility to the raid

Mage

Pros: very high DPS and awesome AOE, frost mages can help slow down trash mobs, refreshment table, combat CC (sheep) for humanoids/animals, spellsteal, counterspell
Cons: easily killed, mana dependent (esp arcane)

Warlock

Pros: different pets bring various abilities to a fight, soulstones, healthstones, good DPS/DoT's, banish-ability on elementals
Cons: easily killed, mana dependent, very limited CC ability

Balance druids

Pros: very good single target DPS, tough spellcaster in moonkin form (rarely one-shotted), Innervate ability can help healers that are
low on mana, combat rez
Cons: has only CC for animals, rooting can only be used outdoors, DPS is generally lower than most DPS classes, 20 minute cooldown on rezzes

Shamans

Pros: very high burst DPS (enhancement spec), totems, non-combat rez, self/emergency healing, good armor
Cons: still fairly easy to kill (mail armor), mana dependent and mana-hungry, no CC capability

Shadow Priests

Pros: high DPS with DoT abilities, mana regen capability, emergency healing, non-combat rez, undead CC capability
Cons: easily killed, mana dependent, limited CC capability

Retribution paladins

Pros: very high burst damage, judgements and seals during combat help increase mana regen/health/damage/crits, auras, emergency/self healing, non-combat rezzes, spell interrupts (stuns and repentence), well armored (can't be one-shotted), can emergency tank by pulling out a 1-hander and a shield
Cons: no real CC capability (turn undead has limited use), mana dependent

I don't think you can just look at the damage meter and decide that ret sucks. Besides, being 2nd or 3rd on a DPS meter while bringing 90 to 95% of a rogue's or mage's damage output isn't something to be ashamed of. So really, can you call ret pallies useless in raids? I'd choose a ret pally over a fury/arms warrior or balance druid.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 1:02pm by TooRetForYou

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 1:03pm by TooRetForYou

There are some problems with you pro/con list.

Fury/arms warriors can bring something to the party, big AP/HP buff and blood frenzy.

the fact a class can be one shotted means little as pretty much every class that isnt a tank that pulls aggro on a raid boss will get one shotted. cloth or plate. Yes, a ret pally will get one shotted.

you are also exaggerating the usefulness of the ret pally pros. for example, the only judgement they can bring that somebody MIGHT not have (but could) is imp SotC. The only benefit is Crusader Strike/sanctity aura. Spell interrupts dont work on raid bosses.

In closing, you are still basing off 5 mans. when people say lol ret or just flat out question its usefulness it is from a raid perspective. raid bosses, gruul+. not even kara. We dont consider 5 mans or kara trash.

edit: forgot sanc aura heh.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 10:34am by KTurner

Every new Ret who comes to this board to prove a point does the exact same thing you did in this thread. You asked a question, but you didn't accept the answers because they weren't what you wanted to hear. You weren't "eager to hear our thoughts". You'd already made up your mind long before you created the thread.

So... why? What was the point? What exactly were you trying to accomplish?

Did we time travel back to the 60's or something?

Not to mention saying that Warlocks are mana dependent. Sure, they have a mana bar, but it can effectively be unlimited.

I'm sure I'm adding fuel to a fire, but for folks who are new there is something missing from the discussion on the viability of Ret pallies at 70 that must be brought up: Threat.

From what I can see (and let me note that I do not have a 70 pally), there is no way to reduce your threat as a Ret pally other than to erase it with a bubble.* If you're pumping out the same DPS as a rogue or mage without any way to reduce your threat generation, then I hope you have a good shield and healer as you'll be tanking soon enough.

All DPS-centric classes have some talent or innate mechanic that reduces threat, but I don't see one in the Ret tree. Am I missing it? Please advise if I'm clueless here.


And personally, I would try out a Ret pally in my 5man/heroic groups. I would not expect them to top the meters, but if they're responsible players and don't cause wipes why not? Also note that I don't generally expect sub rogues, affliction 'locks or ice mages to top the meters either. Buffs, CC, etc can be just as important as damage output.


*edit: It seems I was also wrong about this. See post below and apologies for not checking my facts more carefully.

Edited, Mar 14th 2008 2:08pm by TherionSaysWhat

um, yeah, threat was a huge issue pre 2.3. but now fanaticism (right before CS in the ret tree) reduces our threat by 30%. this usually is enough, and when it isn't enough we still have Blessing of Salvation we can use too. threat is pretty well a non-issue anymore. as long as i let the tank have any kind of head start there's no way i'll catch up unless the tank really sucks. my rogue and mage friend are both usually above me on threat meters.

I stand corrected, thanks. My experience with Ret Pallies is obviously limited. So that's another reason to take off the anit-Ret list.

lol, elitism at its best. honestly, though, what would we do without bodh's vast knowledge base and lack of concern for other peoples feelings? bodh, if it wasn't for you knowing more and being as vehemently anti-ret as you are, ret debates on here would be dull.

i'm hoping blizz can get me my gear back so i can work at getting past kara to experience the absolute fail that awaits me.

i am curious though... if end game raids are so min/max do dps druids or shamans or warriors exist there? none of them have more dps, less threat and necessary utility that can't be brought by tanking or healing members of their class. oh, and i was wondering.... do holy or prot pallies take imp sotc? i can't check armory at the moment, but do you have it in your spec? i don't have anything in ret on my holy pally, but if its worth getting in place of kings or additional holy talents i'll consider changing my holy spec.