I followed the debates about AP vs Agi since this past summer (when the gemming & enchanting portions were added to the sticky), but never thought to bring up the effects of resilience and using a larger number of special shots compared to autos. I guess i'll run some Gladiator gear set-ups and Arcane & Sting heavy shot rotations in the Hunter DPS spreadsheet, but this is ideal dps, which pvp is far from.
Note: I'm assuming a MM build, not SV.
Thanks for the feedback to come :D
Edited, Mar 6th 2008 8:11pm by DukyFrodo
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Aethen, it could be me, but in your second build, I would exchange Humanoid Slaying (3 points) for 1 more point in Hawkeye and 2 points in Savage Strikes any day. 2 extra yards = more distance, always good and there is almost in any game jousting to be done, with SS an extra 20% to crit those...
Like I said, could just be me /smile.
Like I said, could just be me /smile.
Well in his 2nd build, there is no humanoid slaying :D So im guessing you are referring to his first build.
More to the point, I currently am specced with that marksman build. What kind of rotation should be input into the spreadsheet? I'm thinking a 1:1 auto arcane is close to what a pvp "rotation" would be. Unless anyone can say they are able to use steady shot regularly in the arena... because i never have managed that.
Update:
Decked out my NE Hunter in full S3 gear (except for Dory's Embrace, S2 ring in addition to the S3 ring, Darkmoon Card: Madness, and PvP Medallion).
Added Shifting Nightseye versus Balanced Nightseye, or Superior Agility versus Assault
This included a 1:1 (Arcane, Multi, Steady Priority) rotation
Scorpid pet using just scorpid poison
Jagged Talasite gems for those non red/blue colored slots
Surefooted enchant on the boots
Nethercleft Armor Kit
Major Resilience on the chest
Heavy Knothide Armor Kit & Powerful Earthstorm Diamond on the head.
Results:
AP focused total dps = 747.19
Agi focused total dps = 745.94
... a 0.2% change in dps.
with 13,333 hp and 6,463 mp.
Therefore, im sticking with whichever gems and enchants are cheaper :D
This is my current pvp gear goal, so if anyone suggests switching something like the Darkmoon Card for another trinket you think is more effective, or any other substitutions, please tell me. Week after week my gear is getting closer to this set-up, so if there's any big pieces i missed, now's a good time to tell me. Criticisms on my 9/41/11 build are also welcome, though i'd probably argue that my choices are best all day long.
Edited, Mar 7th 2008 11:20pm by DukyFrodo
More to the point, I currently am specced with that marksman build. What kind of rotation should be input into the spreadsheet? I'm thinking a 1:1 auto arcane is close to what a pvp "rotation" would be. Unless anyone can say they are able to use steady shot regularly in the arena... because i never have managed that.
Update:
Decked out my NE Hunter in full S3 gear (except for Dory's Embrace, S2 ring in addition to the S3 ring, Darkmoon Card: Madness, and PvP Medallion).
Added Shifting Nightseye versus Balanced Nightseye, or Superior Agility versus Assault
This included a 1:1 (Arcane, Multi, Steady Priority) rotation
Scorpid pet using just scorpid poison
Jagged Talasite gems for those non red/blue colored slots
Surefooted enchant on the boots
Nethercleft Armor Kit
Major Resilience on the chest
Heavy Knothide Armor Kit & Powerful Earthstorm Diamond on the head.
Results:
AP focused total dps = 747.19
Agi focused total dps = 745.94
... a 0.2% change in dps.
with 13,333 hp and 6,463 mp.
Therefore, im sticking with whichever gems and enchants are cheaper :D
This is my current pvp gear goal, so if anyone suggests switching something like the Darkmoon Card for another trinket you think is more effective, or any other substitutions, please tell me. Week after week my gear is getting closer to this set-up, so if there's any big pieces i missed, now's a good time to tell me. Criticisms on my 9/41/11 build are also welcome, though i'd probably argue that my choices are best all day long.
Edited, Mar 7th 2008 11:20pm by DukyFrodo
There is no shotrotation in pvp...
And dps is insignificant in pvp, its about surviving your opponent.
(yes, you do that by killing him faster then he kills you, buts its a totally different thing from PvE dps)
And dps is insignificant in pvp, its about surviving your opponent.
(yes, you do that by killing him faster then he kills you, buts its a totally different thing from PvE dps)
Aethien wrote:
There is no shotrotation in pvp...
And dps is insignificant in pvp, its about surviving your opponent.
(yes, you do that by killing him faster then he kills you, buts its a totally different thing from PvE dps)
And dps is insignificant in pvp, its about surviving your opponent.
(yes, you do that by killing him faster then he kills you, buts its a totally different thing from PvE dps)
Actually, depending on how stupid your opponents are, this is all false. Your shot rotation in PvP should be mana efficient, unless you fancy leaving your team mate out there while you sit and drink. Other than that; it should be like your PvE shot rotation. If your opponents are stupid enough to let you sit back and do PvE DPS... they won't even be alive long enough to regret it.
Hunters absolutely rule DPS if they're allowed to just sit back and fire away.
As for AP vs. agi: In PvP, you've got people with tons of resilience. This stat negates most usefulness gained from +crit. Therefore, AP will give you steadier and more reliable damage output, and AGI will give you slightly more spiky out put that is gimped by the 2nd more popular PvP stat of them all.
Quote:
Actually, depending on how stupid your opponents are, this is all false. Your shot rotation in PvP should be mana efficient, unless you fancy leaving your team mate out there while you sit and drink. Other than that; it should be like your PvE shot rotation.
Not really. My PvE shot rotation doesn't include multi-shot, nor do I throw consussives on everything I see. I do in PvP though. If the person I'm shooting at isn't trying to kill me, he's definitely trying to kill a teammate.
PvE means you know what actions the mob is going to take before you even engage them. PvP means both of you have minds, and both of you are going to act differently with different circumstances. Your shot rotation shouldn't be focused on max DPS, it should be focused on killing your opponent while you and others from your faction live. That might mean more scatter shots, more silencing shots, more concussive shots, and even an aimed shot once in a while. Heck, even traps and stings can be a much better use of your mana than another few steady shots.
Its just way too situational to think that you should be even thinking about having a shot rotation.
Quote:
There is no shotrotation in pvp...
And dps is insignificant in pvp, its about surviving your opponent.
(yes, you do that by killing him faster then he kills you, buts its a totally different thing from PvE dps)
And dps is insignificant in pvp, its about surviving your opponent.
(yes, you do that by killing him faster then he kills you, buts its a totally different thing from PvE dps)
I completely agree. This is why i put my hunter in full S3 gear with defensive trinkets and rings, an arena xbow instead of a higher dps focused one, and a scorpid over a ravager or cat. However, hunters in the arena are there to drain, slow, and **** every other class off... while dpsing at the same time. The "shot rotation" i chose was to see how much agi affects dps over ap. It wasnt to say that the rotation i chose was to be replicated in pvp, but the number of multi's, arcanes, and autos included should be similar to the ratio fired in an arena fight. (ie, if a hunter's AP significantly affects multi dmg or arcane dmg, then the crit from agi would be less influential... and i almost never get a steady off in the arena. those times i could are filled with aimed shots instead).
Quote:
As for AP vs. agi: In PvP, you've got people with tons of resilience. This stat negates most usefulness gained from +crit. Therefore, AP will give you steadier and more reliable damage output, and AGI will give you slightly more spiky out put that is gimped by the 2nd more popular PvP stat of them all.
This is what i was trying to discover. You math addicts (not geniuses, just addicts :D) found that agi offers more dps benefit after surpassing a given dps. If S3 gear caused hunters to pass that threshold, then agi MIGHT be a better choice for pvp. Since AP still seemed to rule with that set-up, the effects of resilience would only strengthen the dominance of AP.
Note: I also sacced Rapid Killing and 1 pt in GftT, plus the pts in Ranged Weapon Spec in order to max out Imp Arcane. Dispells and that extra armor piercing dps was too tempting to pass up :D
If you're referring to where someone proved +agi is better than +AP part a given tooltip DPS, that was disproved by the fact that tooltip DPS and actual DPS have very weak direct links.
Again, the +crit becomes less and less useful as you get higher in the arenas. So for gemming and enchanting (given you're not going for +stam or surefootted) AP would be better than agi.
Again, the +crit becomes less and less useful as you get higher in the arenas. So for gemming and enchanting (given you're not going for +stam or surefootted) AP would be better than agi.
Quote:
If you're referring to where someone proved +agi is better than +AP part a given tooltip DPS, that was disproved by the fact that tooltip DPS and actual DPS have very weak direct links.
Does this mean that a T6 hunter wants AP gems, not Agi... or that its not really the tooltip dps that decides WHEN the change to agi should be made?
And just to be clear, i am definately gemming for stm, just not resil yet, since a lot of my pvp gear is still being used for PvE. Even though i was in bgs last night and the difference that resil made was VERY obvious. I can chew through 13k hp, even with a healer... but 13k hp with with resilience and armor makes my shots pathetic :( I can't wait to get my own resil numbers up!!!
DukyFrodo wrote:
Quote:
If you're referring to where someone proved +agi is better than +AP part a given tooltip DPS, that was disproved by the fact that tooltip DPS and actual DPS have very weak direct links.
Does this mean that a T6 hunter wants AP gems, not Agi... or that its not really the tooltip dps that decides WHEN the change to agi should be made?
If I interpreted the last case right, that'd be it. There is a point when +agi becomes generally better than +AP. However, that breakpoint can not be calculated with tooltip DPS. I also do not know that break point...
Don't forget that agi also gives +armor, dodge and parry, which are all nice for PvP but useless for PvE.
It's not a huge edge, but it might tip the scale.
It's not a huge edge, but it might tip the scale.
Agi doesn't yield parry. Only defense and parry rating does, to my knowledge.
While the armour point is pretty moot, I see what you mean about dodge though.
While the armour point is pretty moot, I see what you mean about dodge though.
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