This is pretty much what I put up on the O-boards but wanted to post it here to get a little feedback. I want to see if I am the only one seeing this side of the potential problem.
Warlocks have had to adapt again and again to the constant nerfs and we have always been able to adapt, so lets look at it from that aspect.
Eventually we change all our gear and wind up with something like 6K HP and 10K mana. (Just a loose estimate)
Convert 1200 HP to 2K mana. Negate the mana loss by Siphon Life and a few seconds of Drain Life and we're back to full health with more mana then before we tapped. Essentially providing us with an endless supply of mana.
What then? Make DL and SL work on a % base of mana cost vs. health return?
You can't make a spell work on a flat % base between 2 different stats, it's just not possible.
No matter what you do we will adapt, we will make it work to our own benefit. After we adapt are you going to force us to change all our gear, builds and playstyles again?
This is a changed based on Arena yes? Why? We seem to hold the middle ground in Arena which is where a properly balanced class should be.
When are the developers going to see that we are where we should be and these major changes will only serve to destroy or boost us.
It's not about us being overpowered anymore, it's about the fear that people still have for us that makes us overpowered. Once people stop panicking when they see us and actually get their game together the QQers will realize that we're nowhere near the power we used to be.
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Another look on the lifetap changeFollow
10 posts
Blizzard does not understand the meaning of balance. Their defenition of balance is to cripple all other classes except the warrior and the huntard(maybe the rogue too). Its going beyond our ability to adapt or to "balance" the game, its malicious nerfing on blizzard's part. Warlocks are going to be the next shaman if things keep going in this direction. Forgive me for my pessimism, but I dont expect anything good to come out of blizzard in the coming months...
But in the words of the first Blood elf I clicked on when I first entered Silvermoon: We will persevere!!!
But in the words of the first Blood elf I clicked on when I first entered Silvermoon: We will persevere!!!
Oh yeah, rogues never get nerfed. Nope, never. I mean... the fact that they gave rogues a dedicated PvP spec (HARP), like warriors have MS, mages have ice, etc., then one patch later nerfed it away, causing rogues to jump all over the trees again in variance to builds that are technically worse than it. Yup, no nerfs, all buffs.
Warriors... well, yes they haven't really had any significant nerfs to them, but one of the things that makes them so good is being given to other classes (MS to hunters, MS to shaman (which kills 2h PvP specs) and MS-totems for the group, etc.).
Hunters got nerfed a lot for a long while, and are now starting to get buffs - though the arcane shot dispel is a bit excessive, due to its frequency.
Sorry, Granok, but stop being melodramatic and get everything straight.
Warriors... well, yes they haven't really had any significant nerfs to them, but one of the things that makes them so good is being given to other classes (MS to hunters, MS to shaman (which kills 2h PvP specs) and MS-totems for the group, etc.).
Hunters got nerfed a lot for a long while, and are now starting to get buffs - though the arcane shot dispel is a bit excessive, due to its frequency.
Sorry, Granok, but stop being melodramatic and get everything straight.
10 posts
...Interesting, Ok let me ask you this...Is this nerf completely justified? Is blizzard simply doing this is the name of balance? Is completely raping the mechanics of the warlock class, a much need change in the Pvp world?
Dont answer. I will.
Pvp has long been an overglorified version of rock-paper-scissors...Only it looks something more like this warrior>rogue>Warlock>Mage>warrior.
Paladin and Druid hybrid capabilities make them very flexable.
I have no idea where to put a Shadow priest. I understand Disc/Holy priests are decent in the arenas.
No one in their right mind can argue for a shaman in PVP.(Not intended as an insult, but you guys are pretty much dead if someone notices you.)
I still dont like Hunters.
Anyway, warlocks always have had the adavantage of having a really high stamina. Its our key stat, which why so many high end armor sets stack alost double the stamina compared to intellect. We can sacrifice intellect because we can simply life tap that mana back. After 2.4 things will change. No longer will we be walking around with upwards of 12K hitpoints, its simply not practical. You standard warlock will look something like this:Hp 5000 Mana:19000.
Were mages. Were freaking mages. Wonderful...
People also dont seem to realize the effect it will have on our pets.
Warlock pets dont scale well. Correct me if im wrong, But if we have more stamina doesnt that mean they do too?? Unfortuantly this change means that an ideal warlock in 2.4 will be running around with a pet who has the endurance of a freaking doily!(It doesnt help that our pets are brittle enough as it is)
Point.Check.Match Roalan pretty much hits the nail on the head. Why attempt to nerf a class if they are average in the arena?
Answer: Blizzard doesnt know how to balance their games. This dramaticly affects the way warlock will Pve and Pvp. I dont what blizzard was smoking when they came up with this. Warlocks will lose a large portion playability in EVERY area of gameplay, not just PVP.
Thats the point of this arguement, that this gimps us not only in PVP but PVE as well! Im sure when they took away the rogues PVP tree they still did just fine in PVE. Why, because the fundamental mechanics of the class wasnt altered at all. Imagine if you had to stack intellect instead of agility? You simply had to find a new skill setup. A simple respec puts you back on your feet provided you picked a decent new build.
If I could solve the Life tap problem with a simple 50 gold respec, then I wouldnt even be on these damn forums.
Please blizzard, were not overpowered anymore. Just cut it out already before you ruin yet another perfectly good class.
To everyone who would disagree me...
Remeber: I dont give two flying @#%^s about PVP, the stats up their are only to make a point. Im not argueing about the viability of the lock in Pvp, Im completely fine with being in the middle ground, but when it comes to the point you have to nueter the class in all aspects of gameplay just to appease other classes, your playing favorites.
This is the current situation in my experience. Feel free to disagree with me, I dont really care.
That being said, Im going to apologize to anyone who feels I insulted their class... But seriously, come on.
Come ON!!!
Edited, Mar 1st 2008 2:34am by GranokTheZombieGod
Dont answer. I will.
Pvp has long been an overglorified version of rock-paper-scissors...Only it looks something more like this warrior>rogue>Warlock>Mage>warrior.
Paladin and Druid hybrid capabilities make them very flexable.
I have no idea where to put a Shadow priest. I understand Disc/Holy priests are decent in the arenas.
No one in their right mind can argue for a shaman in PVP.(Not intended as an insult, but you guys are pretty much dead if someone notices you.)
I still dont like Hunters.
Anyway, warlocks always have had the adavantage of having a really high stamina. Its our key stat, which why so many high end armor sets stack alost double the stamina compared to intellect. We can sacrifice intellect because we can simply life tap that mana back. After 2.4 things will change. No longer will we be walking around with upwards of 12K hitpoints, its simply not practical. You standard warlock will look something like this:Hp 5000 Mana:19000.
Were mages. Were freaking mages. Wonderful...
People also dont seem to realize the effect it will have on our pets.
Warlock pets dont scale well. Correct me if im wrong, But if we have more stamina doesnt that mean they do too?? Unfortuantly this change means that an ideal warlock in 2.4 will be running around with a pet who has the endurance of a freaking doily!(It doesnt help that our pets are brittle enough as it is)
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This is a changed based on Arena yes? Why? We seem to hold the middle ground in Arena which is where a properly balanced class should be.
Point.Check.Match Roalan pretty much hits the nail on the head. Why attempt to nerf a class if they are average in the arena?
Answer: Blizzard doesnt know how to balance their games. This dramaticly affects the way warlock will Pve and Pvp. I dont what blizzard was smoking when they came up with this. Warlocks will lose a large portion playability in EVERY area of gameplay, not just PVP.
Thats the point of this arguement, that this gimps us not only in PVP but PVE as well! Im sure when they took away the rogues PVP tree they still did just fine in PVE. Why, because the fundamental mechanics of the class wasnt altered at all. Imagine if you had to stack intellect instead of agility? You simply had to find a new skill setup. A simple respec puts you back on your feet provided you picked a decent new build.
If I could solve the Life tap problem with a simple 50 gold respec, then I wouldnt even be on these damn forums.
Please blizzard, were not overpowered anymore. Just cut it out already before you ruin yet another perfectly good class.
To everyone who would disagree me...
Remeber: I dont give two flying @#%^s about PVP, the stats up their are only to make a point. Im not argueing about the viability of the lock in Pvp, Im completely fine with being in the middle ground, but when it comes to the point you have to nueter the class in all aspects of gameplay just to appease other classes, your playing favorites.
This is the current situation in my experience. Feel free to disagree with me, I dont really care.
That being said, Im going to apologize to anyone who feels I insulted their class... But seriously, come on.
Come ON!!!
Edited, Mar 1st 2008 2:34am by GranokTheZombieGod
Unless your healers are stupid or undergeared or the fight is just going straight to hell in the first place, a raid is almost always topped off on health. Going OOM is the sign of a bad tank or a bad healer because everyone should be bringing consumables to a raid.
Looking at it from a purely tap-for-tap mana generation PoV this is neither a nerf nor a buff to PvE at the raiding level. In general you'll see a minimal (200 mana or less) difference to your life taps in one direction or another. i know mine will be gaining around 80 mana/tap at 20% and I know a lock in my guild who will lose around 60/tap. This is intended to be a PvP nerf and that's what it's shaping up to be. Finding the balanced level where you can make it detrimental in PvP while making it negligible in PvE is a bit of a chore but it is surely not an impossible task. 26% was a huge buff to PvE and a crippling nerf to PvP. Making it 15% was not enough of a nerf to PvP and a crippling nerf to PvE and so Bliz has split the difference and come up with something that is essentially exactly what they've intended.
A lock in 5/5 Veng. Dreadweave and Vindicator's is going to be chock full of HP and the drain life nerf was meant to keep them from gaining it back as quickly, but the problem is the only way to kill those locks is still to run them OOM or they WILL continue to make very significant use of drain life. Hurting their mana regen is a simple way to level the playing field.
Other PvP nerfs? They're removing racials from Arena. Good-bye Shadow Meld and with it the rein of the Alliance resto druid or disc priest as the untouchable #1 healer in Arena.
Looking at it from a purely tap-for-tap mana generation PoV this is neither a nerf nor a buff to PvE at the raiding level. In general you'll see a minimal (200 mana or less) difference to your life taps in one direction or another. i know mine will be gaining around 80 mana/tap at 20% and I know a lock in my guild who will lose around 60/tap. This is intended to be a PvP nerf and that's what it's shaping up to be. Finding the balanced level where you can make it detrimental in PvP while making it negligible in PvE is a bit of a chore but it is surely not an impossible task. 26% was a huge buff to PvE and a crippling nerf to PvP. Making it 15% was not enough of a nerf to PvP and a crippling nerf to PvE and so Bliz has split the difference and come up with something that is essentially exactly what they've intended.
A lock in 5/5 Veng. Dreadweave and Vindicator's is going to be chock full of HP and the drain life nerf was meant to keep them from gaining it back as quickly, but the problem is the only way to kill those locks is still to run them OOM or they WILL continue to make very significant use of drain life. Hurting their mana regen is a simple way to level the playing field.
Other PvP nerfs? They're removing racials from Arena. Good-bye Shadow Meld and with it the rein of the Alliance resto druid or disc priest as the untouchable #1 healer in Arena.
You can not base balance off the support one class receives from another, thats not balance.
Mages and Priests have the ability to regenerate mana through talents, spirit or MP5, we don't.
Lifetap in it's current form allows us to increase our overall mana pool by increasing out health. That is how our gear is designed, is it not?
Now, with the PTR version of lifetap, our total mana is taking a huge hit.
Lets say the average lock is sitting at 12K HP and 8K mana, thats 20K mana. Bumping our HP or mana would increase our total mana. Now we're down to 16K mana and the only way to fix this is to boost INT, boosting STA will have absolutely no change in our overall mana pool. The problem with this is that our primary stat, which is reflected by every piece of gear designed for us, is STA.
This change is effectively capping our total mana into x2 of our mana pool which is designed by itemization to be significantly lower then others.
Mages and Priests have the ability to regenerate mana through talents, spirit or MP5, we don't.
Lifetap in it's current form allows us to increase our overall mana pool by increasing out health. That is how our gear is designed, is it not?
Now, with the PTR version of lifetap, our total mana is taking a huge hit.
Lets say the average lock is sitting at 12K HP and 8K mana, thats 20K mana. Bumping our HP or mana would increase our total mana. Now we're down to 16K mana and the only way to fix this is to boost INT, boosting STA will have absolutely no change in our overall mana pool. The problem with this is that our primary stat, which is reflected by every piece of gear designed for us, is STA.
This change is effectively capping our total mana into x2 of our mana pool which is designed by itemization to be significantly lower then others.
Granok, I never once said that I am in favour of this change. In fact, I'm opposed to it, but it's better than the initial incarnation of the example - especially since there are ranks, and so if needed you can downrank.
It's a decent nerf in PvP, and more of a hindrance (then its Live version) to the PvE 'lock. It makes farming a bit tedious, as well, unless you're either Affliction or you want to sac your felpuppy.
I was just commenting on the fact that you're being melodramatic and correcting some of your points, not disagreeing with the basic premise - that the nerf is a touch harsh.
(Also... no one likes hunters.)
Edit: Just remembered, there are also rumours over on WoWMB about pet scaling in either 2.4 or WotLK, which would be very nice.
Edited, Mar 1st 2008 10:58am by Taeraq
It's a decent nerf in PvP, and more of a hindrance (then its Live version) to the PvE 'lock. It makes farming a bit tedious, as well, unless you're either Affliction or you want to sac your felpuppy.
I was just commenting on the fact that you're being melodramatic and correcting some of your points, not disagreeing with the basic premise - that the nerf is a touch harsh.
(Also... no one likes hunters.)
Edit: Just remembered, there are also rumours over on WoWMB about pet scaling in either 2.4 or WotLK, which would be very nice.
Edited, Mar 1st 2008 10:58am by Taeraq
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You can not base balance off the support one class receives from another, thats not balance.
False. And here's why:
For solo PvE:
Locks are the only class with a consistent way to continuously generate mana and health in a solo PvE situation. The mana pool is limitless when combined with drain life since drain has a higher RoI (i.e HP/Mana) than is necessary to negate the damage done by life tapping. Even at only 1600 mana/tap, you can cast up to 4 drain life spells on a single tap and even at 3khp/tap (11.5kHP), a lock with 1k buffed (i.e. Fel Armor) spell power will recover his in 2 casts (not counting the fel armor buff). The basic principles behind farming as a warlock are designed for us to finish every fight with as much or more mana than we started with. This principle can be ignored for a period of time, producing quick bursts of farming, and then fallen back on for "slow farming" which is essentially just killing 1 mob at a time like most other classes do.
Effectively, in solo play, a warlock's downtime is only limited by his ability to find something drainable and/or fearable, which encompasses almost any mobs you will encounter, since an immunity to either is clearly the exception to any rule.
Meanwhile to the "balance" of other classes:
Mage downtime is limited to a single mana pool. While it is larger than our own it must be replenished more frequently. Also, mage down time is limited by their HP pool, which is smaller than ours and which they have no way to internally recover.
Priest downtime is limited to a single mana pool. While they are able to recover health faster than warlocks, doing so will deplete that mana pool even more quickly, meaning that while we're moving on to another mob to recover HP and mana, they are spending more Mana to recover HP BEFORE moving on.
Locks have always been, and probably always will be, the premiere solo farmers because of the relationship between our health and mana pools. While the relationship has been changed slightly, as long as the two are freely convertible no one will be able to take that title.
For small group PvE:
Group PvE content is any content where groups are necessary to clear. Most obviously this includes instancing, but also quests that involve killing a number of elites. Nearly any group of PvE is going to include healing. Yes, this means that you will be more careful with the timing of your lifetaps to avoid AoE damage, but the basic principles of the Health/Mana conversion still remain. The only difference now is that there is a more time and mana efficient means for you to recover your HP. To say you can't base class balance off of this is to look past what the other classes DON'T bring to the table. If you can't base group class balance off the idea that people will be getting healed, then you also can't base it off the idea that mobs will be tanked or even DPS'd. In this "new balance" every class must, at some point, be capable of simultaneously tanking and DPSing a mob while keeping their own HP at an acceptable level.
Druids and Paladins are the best candidates for this, prima facia, but upon further review you'll find that neither of those classes can heal themself while being attacked to any significant level and that the damage put out by a prot pally or a bear druid is too low to be considered balance and the tanking capabilities of the cat/resto druid or holy/ret pally are too low for the job. This leaves Balance druids, something of an ugly duckling, as the only truly balanced class. Notice, though, that warlocks have a decided advantage in soloing what would normally be considered "group" quests. Being able to fear around an elite 3 levels above you or enslave elite demons in the area has that effect.
For large group PvE:
Obviously this is raiding scenarios. While the splash damage is significant in this scenario, so are the buffs given to a raid. Increased raw health and mana and an increased number of healers dedicated to taking care of that splash damage means that even the nastiest of AoEs are meant to be survivable and the only important thing is timing. Are you now more prone to tapping down too low and dying to the AoE? Yes. However, when mages are sitting around 7-8k HP, tapping down to this level should not be a cause for alarm. You may have to stagger your tapping more, but you will actually be spending the same amount of time tapping anyway, so the difference is minimal.
45 posts
i see a few problems with this;
1. we do not have any real effective means of escape like blink, FD or vanish so one of our primary defenses is high HP. [yes, there is fear, but its use is kind of debatable in both pvp and in group pve.]
2. yes, we will survive this and good players will adapt, true, but if i wanted 6k hp and 10k mana i'd roll a glass cannon aka mage.
3. well, you can disagree with the above, but, i haven't seen any posters mentioning tanking. "ugh? lock tanking?" yes, i dare you to go tank leotheras now and press life tap.
also, some people mentioned that this will not nerf us in pve as in pvp for a few reasons. 1 less tap more dps, and that even though we loose more health 1 HoT will sort it out...
well, i beg to differ.
1. i don't loose global cd/dps for just 1 life tap. i lose it becouse i life tap a few times so it is maybe a GCD amounting to around 10 sec on some long mana demanding fights. but, i still come out as TOP dps. sooo... er, HELLO?
[another way of blizzard trying to embellish a nerf maybe?]
2. as i mentioned above. 1 life tap is not really sufficient at times [low or next to no mana during some boss phaze transitions] and healers have their hands toping off the raid. i do 1 life tap, 2nd life tap boss comes with an AOE... by, by Mr. Warlock.
so, yes, i think some math/theorycraft lovers will indulge me with a solution or just tell me that i will have to adapt and be reaaaly careful as i life tap, but i will remind them that i rolled a warlock, not a mage for a reason, and secondly, i will point them above to the leo tanking bit.
and don't even get me started on the gear/enchants and our demons issues...
WoTLK is too far to start changing gear [as of course that will be one of the things people suggest] and i spent too damn long getting current gear to just trash it as useless.
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2. as i mentioned above. 1 life tap is not really sufficient at times [low or next to no mana during some boss phaze transitions] and healers have their hands toping off the raid. i do 1 life tap, 2nd life tap boss comes with an AOE... by, by Mr. Warlock.
Try not being retarded and popping a health stone? Instant 3k HP. Super Rejuv pots or Mad Alchemist Elixirs also work. OH NO! Consumables?! Do you know how many fights I go through without ever popping a health stone? ****, I've gone entire raids without using one.
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1. we do not have any real effective means of escape like blink, FD or vanish so one of our primary defenses is high HP. [yes, there is fear, but its use is kind of debatable in both pvp and in group pve.]
Right... and in PvP our "primary defense" was hit with a nerf. But none of this has **** to do with PvE. None of those abilities protect you from boss AoE. All they do is drop your threat. We have one of those, it's called Soul Shatter. Complete threat drop? No. But will it get a mob off you in a raid/instance? Without a doubt.
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3. well, you can disagree with the above, but, i haven't seen any posters mentioning tanking. "ugh? lock tanking?" yes, i dare you to go tank leotheras now and press life tap.
As it is I don't Life Tap while tanking Leo after the 2nd or 3rd Chaos Blast connects. I really don't see the point. It's stupid to risk even 1500 HP, I'm surely not going to blow 3k. I've been tanking him for the last 3 months and I've life tapped during his demon phase maybe twice? It's 1 minute. You tap to full 5 seconds before the transition and begin laying into him. If your mana pool can't last 1 minute you're geared like an idiot anyway.
For PvE a decent balance between Stam and Int has always been desirable because it lets you go longer without life tapping. The 16k/8k kind of difference is never going to be trouble to a well geared PvE warlock because an 8k mana pool means you will be life tapping entirely too frequently. Armory some T6 warlocks and you'll find they're running around 11kHP/10k mana unbuffed. The gross disparity between HP and Mana pools is something you'll only really encounter in PvP scenarios.
45 posts
Quote:
Try not being retarded and popping a health stone?
i do not see the need to be offensive so go smoke something, pull the stick thingy out of your **** then come discuss......
well, a health stone will [in case this comes to be] cover 1 life tap. in combo with other consumable it will cover maybe 2 full life taps. not nearly enough and not even reasonable or to be expected that i'll burn those CDs when you compare it to the amount of mana i can go through in 20 sec.
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None of those abilities protect you from boss AoE. All they do is drop your threat. We have one of those, it's called Soul Shatter. Complete threat drop? No. But will it get a mob off you in a raid/instance? Without a doubt.
no, my main survive/defend ability from that is my HP poll as i stated, which on the other hand will not be desirable any more... soul shatter is is NOT 100% proof and it has a 15 min CD.
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As it is I don't Life Tap while tanking Leo after the 2nd or 3rd Chaos Blast connects. I really don't see the point. It's stupid to risk even 1500 HP, I'm surely not going to blow 3k.
er... no more life tap at all anymore here.
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You tap to full 5 seconds before the transition and begin laying into him. If your mana pool can't last 1 minute you're geared like an idiot anyway.
er, you think you'll life tap 5 seconds before transition now? you will need mana during normal phase, so you can either tap after or before demon phase, or both. your healers will love you [insert lock snicker], not to mention that you will almost never get to full mana without getting "fizzled" with current stat/gear setup.
also, keep in mind that even though you are [i guess you are, but not really sure] fire resistance caped you can die. ok, you come up [battle res/ss] then what you'll do? you'll keep agro and mana? good luck!
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The gross disparity between HP and Mana pools is something you'll only really encounter in PvP scenarios.
well, 1st, some of us still don't have full t6 yet, but, 11k/10k... wtf? i have no t6. none, and unbuffed i'm walking around like that, a bit over 11 and a bit under 10 but... [i pull some pvp gear out of my bags and i am @ 13/9]. in a raid? well, m8, in a raid hp/mp disparity is different. there are more buffs hp oriented vs intellect/mana buffs.
also,there are people on pvp servers and, imagine that, we do pve raids as well... and do i realy want to respec and resocket/reenchant my gear every day for pve or farming? [mind, pvp server, you farm = you do meet opposing faction side players]
Do you raid? do you have ANY idea what you're talking about?
well, a health stone will [in case this comes to be] cover 1 life tap. in combo with other consumable it will cover maybe 2 full life taps. not nearly enough and not even reasonable or to be expected that i'll burn those CDs when you compare it to the amount of mana i can go through in 20 sec.
Timing the use of your consumables for maximum effect is a large part of raiding. Being topped off before an AoE, especially something as predictable as a phase change, is easily done. Life tapping at high risk times during which random AoE can occur almost demands the use of a health stone even without the upcoming changes. What else would you be using those cooldowns for? What else runs off the health stone cooldown? Flamecap?
no, my main survive/defend ability from that is my HP poll as i stated, which on the other hand will not be desirable any more... soul shatter is is NOT 100% proof and it has a 15 min CD.
What do other classes use to protect them from boss AoE? It's not any of the abilities you stated earlier. At best they've got Ice Block and Divine Shield. Hunters, Rogues, Druids, Warriors, Shamans, and Priests are left completely open to AoE damage and (when spec'd/geared for raid DPS) they ALL have lower HP totals than a warlock, even when the lock gear is balanced.
The HP pool of a warlock is not going to protect you from a direct attack from a boss, so it's either Soul Shatter/DPS off or Bust in that regard.
er, you think you'll life tap 5 seconds before transition now? you will need mana during normal phase, so you can either tap after or before demon phase, or both. your healers will love you [insert lock snicker], not to mention that you will almost never get to full mana without getting "fizzled" with current stat/gear setup.
They'll do it because it's their damn jobs to do it. That's like the tank ******** about having to generate threat. It's a healers job to heal me, especially as the Leo tank, and to tank Leo the most efficient way possible, yes, you tap before and after every demon phase. Specifically I run out after the demon phase transition, tap to full mana, begin bandaging, and then go back in after the 1st whirlwind when I'm at full HP/Mana.
If you die you SS up, pop as many consumables as possible, instant summon your pet and get going again. Tank Leo. Get some experience, then we'll debate how to do it.
well, 1st, some of us still don't have full t6 yet, but, 11k/10k... wtf? i have no t6. none, and unbuffed i'm walking around like that, a bit over 11 and a bit under 10 but... [i pull some pvp gear out of my bags and i am @ 13/9]. in a raid? well, m8, in a raid hp/mp disparity is different. there are more buffs hp oriented vs intellect/mana buffs.
First T6 lock I found logged out in raid gear on my server.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tichondrius&n=Crazypyrox
Unbuffed his taps are currently 1527 HP > Mana. After the patch it will become 2168 HP > 1881 Mana. Yes, the HP scales faster than the Mana does, but it is still a mana buff and that single tap is still entirely covered by popping 1 health stone of any size. This does translate directly into FEWER life taps/fight and thus higher overall damage/fight.
As for more HP buffs than Mana buffs, I don't see them. Standard raid buffs include food, oil, flask, fort, mark, spirit, ai, shadow prot, kings, and salv. That's 1 stam specific buff and 1 int specific buff. You may trade kings for wis, you may not, but that looks like some pretty level increases all around. The real differential comes from the talents in the demonology tree that most locks don't even touch until 4/5 T5 or higher anyway. And, like I have been pointing out, at that point the change becomes such a buff to mana regeneration that it offsets the relatively small chance of a crappy LT/AoE combo wiping you out.
P.S. Since I missed the thing about PvP before.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Server:Tichondrius_US
Read up. I've got a prot pally that had almost 200 world PvP HKs before it hit 70. Until you've rolled on Tich you don't know about world PvP.
Edited, Mar 1st 2008 4:56pm by Loki
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well, a health stone will [in case this comes to be] cover 1 life tap. in combo with other consumable it will cover maybe 2 full life taps. not nearly enough and not even reasonable or to be expected that i'll burn those CDs when you compare it to the amount of mana i can go through in 20 sec.
Timing the use of your consumables for maximum effect is a large part of raiding. Being topped off before an AoE, especially something as predictable as a phase change, is easily done. Life tapping at high risk times during which random AoE can occur almost demands the use of a health stone even without the upcoming changes. What else would you be using those cooldowns for? What else runs off the health stone cooldown? Flamecap?
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no, my main survive/defend ability from that is my HP poll as i stated, which on the other hand will not be desirable any more... soul shatter is is NOT 100% proof and it has a 15 min CD.
What do other classes use to protect them from boss AoE? It's not any of the abilities you stated earlier. At best they've got Ice Block and Divine Shield. Hunters, Rogues, Druids, Warriors, Shamans, and Priests are left completely open to AoE damage and (when spec'd/geared for raid DPS) they ALL have lower HP totals than a warlock, even when the lock gear is balanced.
The HP pool of a warlock is not going to protect you from a direct attack from a boss, so it's either Soul Shatter/DPS off or Bust in that regard.
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er, you think you'll life tap 5 seconds before transition now? you will need mana during normal phase, so you can either tap after or before demon phase, or both. your healers will love you [insert lock snicker], not to mention that you will almost never get to full mana without getting "fizzled" with current stat/gear setup.
They'll do it because it's their damn jobs to do it. That's like the tank ******** about having to generate threat. It's a healers job to heal me, especially as the Leo tank, and to tank Leo the most efficient way possible, yes, you tap before and after every demon phase. Specifically I run out after the demon phase transition, tap to full mana, begin bandaging, and then go back in after the 1st whirlwind when I'm at full HP/Mana.
If you die you SS up, pop as many consumables as possible, instant summon your pet and get going again. Tank Leo. Get some experience, then we'll debate how to do it.
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well, 1st, some of us still don't have full t6 yet, but, 11k/10k... wtf? i have no t6. none, and unbuffed i'm walking around like that, a bit over 11 and a bit under 10 but... [i pull some pvp gear out of my bags and i am @ 13/9]. in a raid? well, m8, in a raid hp/mp disparity is different. there are more buffs hp oriented vs intellect/mana buffs.
First T6 lock I found logged out in raid gear on my server.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tichondrius&n=Crazypyrox
Unbuffed his taps are currently 1527 HP > Mana. After the patch it will become 2168 HP > 1881 Mana. Yes, the HP scales faster than the Mana does, but it is still a mana buff and that single tap is still entirely covered by popping 1 health stone of any size. This does translate directly into FEWER life taps/fight and thus higher overall damage/fight.
As for more HP buffs than Mana buffs, I don't see them. Standard raid buffs include food, oil, flask, fort, mark, spirit, ai, shadow prot, kings, and salv. That's 1 stam specific buff and 1 int specific buff. You may trade kings for wis, you may not, but that looks like some pretty level increases all around. The real differential comes from the talents in the demonology tree that most locks don't even touch until 4/5 T5 or higher anyway. And, like I have been pointing out, at that point the change becomes such a buff to mana regeneration that it offsets the relatively small chance of a crappy LT/AoE combo wiping you out.
P.S. Since I missed the thing about PvP before.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Server:Tichondrius_US
Read up. I've got a prot pally that had almost 200 world PvP HKs before it hit 70. Until you've rolled on Tich you don't know about world PvP.
Edited, Mar 1st 2008 4:56pm by Loki
45 posts
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Do you raid? do you have ANY idea what you're talking about?
do you? or to rephrase... in which gear?
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What else would you be using those cooldowns for?
for a new healthstone?
how much mana from life tap can you cover up with 1 health stone now, and how will it look in the future. mana gained vs health lost vs mana consumption.
specifically why i mentioned above; health stone + consumable = how much mana and for how long [read, how much can i cast from that?]
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Hunters, Rogues, Druids, Warriors, Shamans, and Priests are left completely open to AoE damage and (when spec'd/geared for raid DPS) they ALL have lower HP totals than a warlock, even when the lock gear is balanced.
i could list some more as in;
healers will focus on the tank.
extreme cases priests, shamans, druids can heal...
but, the mechanics of my class allows for sacrificing health towards a certain goal and keeping mana at the same time.
also, as i stated before, in my 1st post to this thread, i do not wish to be a glass cannon aka mage. i rolled a warlock.
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They'll do it because it's their damn jobs to do it.
wrong. it is not the point of a healer, at least it was not before, to have you topped in spite of your life tap fetish.
so in the current preferable raid you want to see healers at the end of the boss encounter with no or next to no mana.... or you simply have too many healers. the new system may make us obsolete in raids due to higher lvl of healing required vs somewhat increased dps.
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If you die you SS up, pop as many consumables as possible, instant summon your pet and get going again. Tank Leo. Get some experience, then we'll debate how to do it.
oh we will? lets now please. do the math on the mana/hp gained from what you have. then think about how much mana it takes you to get agro again... please do, please elaborate.
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First T6 lock I found logged out in raid gear on my server.
please read again what you quoted... or, ask that lock how much mana he burns or how fast he does it :P
also, er, as far as the buffs go, check base stats vs actual and how buffs affect them. and please do remember your faithful companion Mr. Imp :)
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Read up. I've got a prot pally that had almost 200 world PvP HKs before it hit 70. Until you've rolled on Tich you don't know about world PvP.
yes, yes, i know... your dad is stronger then mine and your **** is soooo huge you bang chicks in china from your sofa back home.
45 posts
@ loki
anyway, dude...
no hard feelings. i think we both managed to present our points adequately. we just have different opinions on the subject, and, tbh we are sort of chatting up the thread. if you post something good, cool, i think i'll give it until tomorrow and wait for some other feedback.
cheers!
until tomorrow. :)
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oh we will? lets now please. do the math on the mana/hp gained from what you have. then think about how much mana it takes you to get agro again... please do, please elaborate.
It depends on when I'm dying. If it's before the split it is pointless to even try to regain aggro. If I died it's going to be in the last few seconds of the phase and thus I don't even get up until after the phase change. If it's after the split, even if each healer has done 50k healing I'm only looking at covering around 17.5k threat. With 6 healers that means 300k healing has been done which is far more than rational considering, but the 22750 threat it would take for me to get that back is roughly 4000 mana, or 2 life taps. At that point, though, my survival is a non-issue. I'm literally only getting up to pull it off the healers long enough for Leotheras to die and even bringing out another pet is a waste of my mana. Either way my HP:Mana is nearly going to be around 1.2:1, rough estimate.
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do you? or to rephrase... in which gear?
I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tichondrius&n=Netweaver
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c173/Lokiliesmith/WoWScrnShot_112807_193739.jpg
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healers will focus on the tank.
extreme cases priests, shamans, druids can heal...
but, the mechanics of my class allows for sacrificing health towards a certain goal and keeping mana at the same time.
God forbid you have to actually... I don't know... assess the situation and not tap entirely to full in 1 go. Life tapping in certain situations is just higher risk and in doing so you accept that risk and do what you can to mitigate it. Popping 2-3 health stones/fight is entirely reasonable, as well as 2-3 pots. For progression most people expect you to chain-chug potions. Using these items wisely and you AREN'T a glass cannon. Even just the fel armor buff makes you more survivable than a mage in equivalent gear. The itemization of our tier armor does more to increase that.
45 posts
and you simply couldn't let ZieLock slumber in peace...
in spite of the ZieLock telling you;
[quote self]
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@ loki
anyway, dude...
no hard feelings. i think we both managed to present our points adequately. we just have different opinions on the subject, and, tbh we are sort of chatting up the thread. if you post something good, cool, i think i'll give it until tomorrow and wait for some other feedback.
cheers!
until tomorrow. :)
[end quote self]
you just had to go on...
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It depends on when I'm dying. If it's before the split it is pointless to even try to regain aggro. If I died it's going to be in the last few seconds of the phase and thus I don't even get up until after the phase change. If it's after the split, even if each healer has done 50k healing I'm only looking at covering around 17.5k threat. With 6 healers that means 300k healing has been done which is far more than rational considering, but the 22750 threat it would take for me to get that back is roughly 4000 mana, or 2 life taps. At that point, though, my survival is a non-issue. I'm literally only getting up to pull it off the healers long enough for Leotheras to die and even bringing out another pet is a waste of my mana. Either way my HP:Mana is nearly going to be around 1.2:1, rough estimate.
this is the most eloquent piece of bull**** i ever saw. well, maybe not top 5 but well there. next time please actually do something besides running to wowwiki and looking at theory craft. :)
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Popping 2-3 health stones/fight is entirely reasonable, as well as 2-3 pots. For progression most people expect you to chain-chug potions.
wtf? i seriously am reading the entire paragraph and keep thinking, wtf...?
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I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-...n=Netweaver
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c17..._193739.jpg
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-...n=Netweaver
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c17..._193739.jpg
i actually kept the sweetest part for the end of this cookie i serve you for FAIL :)
your gear m8.... it falls under the category;
yes, i am a lock but not quite sure what i want to do. :P
i see you as a recent player, maybe a year or so that changed some guilds up to 65-70 margin then joined some raiding guild over the last few months of playing, that boosted you and was kind enough to give you some pointers :)
now, my game card expired earlier today [ergo posting here], but i will get a new one promptly tomorrow just to show you how a warlock looks at pvp server while pve raid oriented, and will make an effort to show you how it looks while doing full pvp/arena...
well, wtf... i just might decide to show you how it looks half ***** equiped while boosting... ta`da...
it looks like;
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Agamaggan&n=Lemus
and that is casual farming gear for a pvp server...
i spit on your pvp s2 blade, i spit at your half ***** gems, and, ofc, i spit at your half ***** trinkets... and blah blah... :)
as i said i WILL make an effort to get a god damn new game card and show you some proper pve and pvp gear...
[will be equipping, waiting for armory refresh and spamming here ofc :P the whole day]
and yeah, ******, i don't have ANY T6 yet. and i am the lower end of the proper warlock food chain :)
so please, go back to spamming wow forums with your theory craft as i am also sure your leo gear is just as half ***** as the rest of what you have and you are the lower end of the guild boosting you along.
also, yours is an attitude that keeps ppl off wow-eu forums.
also. do some ZA, get a proper head item and a blade...
cheers young one and do have fun in your future trials :)
ZieLock wrote:
and you simply couldn't let ZieLock slumber in peace...
in spite of the ZieLock telling you;
*snip* (l2 bbcode btw)
you just had to go on...
*snip*
this is the most eloquent piece of bull**** i ever saw. well, maybe not top 5 but well there. next time please actually do something besides running to wowwiki and looking at theory craft. :)
*snip* Apparently somebody fails to understand the concept of threat. If he were to rez before the end of the phase, it'd be utterly pointless because he can't regain that much threat without a wipe. Is that too difficult for your possibly existent brain to comprehend?
wtf? i seriously am reading the entire paragraph and keep thinking, wtf...?
*snip* Lookit me, I iz ZieLock! I am poor and as such cannot afford Consumables! Also, I've not managed to explain about multiple ranks of Healthstone to my guild!
i actually kept the sweetest part for the end of this cookie i serve you for FAIL :)
*snip*
your gear m8.... it falls under the category;
yes, i am a lock but not quite sure what i want to do. :P
i see you as a recent player, maybe a year or so that changed some guilds up to 65-70 margin then joined some raiding guild over the last few months of playing, that boosted you and was kind enough to give you some pointers :)
now, my game card expired earlier today [ergo posting here], but i will get a new one promptly tomorrow just to show you how a warlock looks at pvp server while pve raid oriented, and will make an effort to show you how it looks while doing full pvp/arena...
well, wtf... i just might decide to show you how it looks half ***** equiped while boosting... ta`da...
I've run out of proper arguments against your points and as such am going to pointlessly criticise your gear!
it looks like;
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Agamaggan&n=Lemus
and that is casual farming gear for a pvp server...
i spit on your pvp s2 blade, i spit at your half ***** gems, and, ofc, i spit at your half ***** trinkets... and blah blah... :)
Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt faintly of elderberries.
as i said i WILL make an effort to get a god damn new game card and show you some proper pve and pvp gear...
[will be equipping, waiting for armory refresh and spamming here ofc :P the whole day]
and yeah, ******, i don't have ANY T6 yet. and i am the lower end of the proper warlock food chain :)
so please, go back to spamming wow forums with your theory craft as i am also sure your leo gear is just as half ***** as the rest of what you have and you are the lower end of the guild boosting you along.
also, yours is an attitude that keeps ppl off wow-eu forums.
also. do some ZA, get a proper head item and a blade...
T5 is a proper head item. S2 Spellblade is perfectly fine for PvE. The one part of his gear that could possibly be called anything but great is the fact that in this gear he's not hit-capped, but he might switch something out and swapping a few gems would cover that anyway.
cheers young one and do have fun in your future trials :)
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I actually don't run hit capped because I have the ridiculous fortune of always being grouped with an ele shaman and actually take the Jewel off and replace it with an orb of the soul eater. Why I'm rocking that Jewel atm is actually beyond me.
We won't mention the fact that ZieLock runs 31/9/21, the updated version of the pre-bc build. Dude, that was a year ago, get over it and update to something viable.
The delicious irony is that he's whining about your S2 Spellblade while wearing 2/5 S2 and 163 Resilience.
Also, WTF happened to his Hit? What's with all the STA gems? xD
Also, WTF happened to his Hit? What's with all the STA gems? xD
45 posts
well, i have a perverse fetish towards that build, and, well, works just fine for me :) yes, yes, i might be better off with 0/21/40 or something but, hey, i'm happy with it. anyway. life tap has nothing to do with it. you use life tap in any build...
as i mentioned i am geared up for farming, not raiding. will reequip later tonight. i am at a pvp server, so you do meet some opposing faction when farming so i just slap those two in case something untoward happens :)
also, you'd be amazed over the group/world pvp during raiding hours around summoning stones ;)
might as well mention that it will be also interesting while solo farming as a lock on a pvp server. pew, pew, tap, tap, hello Mr Rogue, hello spirit healer :$
You act like world PvP is something new and special. People have been doing it for years. Yes, sometimes it forces you to use PvP gear to farm, but try getting some GOOD PvP gear. Running around in 150 resil is little better than running around with 0. Hell, sometimes I think the 350 I use isn't worth it. But hey, I'm the idiot that thinks 4pc T5 is better than a Hood of Hexing. What do I know, right?
Meanwhile, on the other side, you're talking about a 0/21/40 build you almost assuredly don't have the stats to support, you're rocking a modified SM/Ruin build that I would beat my children for using and the most delicious part of all of this is that I don't even have to defend myself because you're so far off base that the people with whom I was just arguing have now all turned their attention to you.
Meanwhile, on the other side, you're talking about a 0/21/40 build you almost assuredly don't have the stats to support, you're rocking a modified SM/Ruin build that I would beat my children for using and the most delicious part of all of this is that I don't even have to defend myself because you're so far off base that the people with whom I was just arguing have now all turned their attention to you.
If I am agreeing with Loki on any particular point about anything, it means you sir win the gold medal for not knowing how to play.
45 posts
as is, i would like all people coming to this thread to actually read it from post 1 onwards and then try to comment on the issue itself [and/or the new change ^^see topic name^^ introduced] instead of commenting/siding the nonsense between me and loki.
read in full ftw ;)
[edit]
or this becomes useless thread diverted from subject and there are still many issues/feedbacks that could benefit the thread.
ty
Edited, Mar 5th 2008 9:02pm by ZieLock
read in full ftw ;)
[edit]
or this becomes useless thread diverted from subject and there are still many issues/feedbacks that could benefit the thread.
ty
Edited, Mar 5th 2008 9:02pm by ZieLock
Look, a distraction!
Scholar
39 posts
Probably the only thing I can agree with ZieLock, let's not derail the OP.
Actually I liked very much Raolan's attitude. I think we can all agree that the life tap change will be a nerf on PvP locks and, when carefully used and balanced, could be turned into a slight advantage (or at least not a disadvantage) in PvE.
However, as Raolan mentioned, we have been nerfed before and we have overcome it. Nevertheless, our best asset has not been (ok, not too much) changed, and that is the insane fear that most other classes have against us and the "Oh sh*t!" effect when they see us ;D
Probably a bit overdramatized and no way a flat "we-R-the-best", but anybody thinking we are easy kill after the change is asking for a mayor surprise ;)
Actually I liked very much Raolan's attitude. I think we can all agree that the life tap change will be a nerf on PvP locks and, when carefully used and balanced, could be turned into a slight advantage (or at least not a disadvantage) in PvE.
However, as Raolan mentioned, we have been nerfed before and we have overcome it. Nevertheless, our best asset has not been (ok, not too much) changed, and that is the insane fear that most other classes have against us and the "Oh sh*t!" effect when they see us ;D
Probably a bit overdramatized and no way a flat "we-R-the-best", but anybody thinking we are easy kill after the change is asking for a mayor surprise ;)
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