With this lifetap nerf I think it's important people understand the principle of scaling. For instance, this lifetap nerf does not mean stamina is a detrimental stat. People are saying things like "Now taking a fort buff will hurt me!" which is wrong.
What this lifetap change DOES mean is lifetap will scale negatively. Lifetap will effectively have a worse health/mana return ratio than it would be if we just didn't equip gear at all. To matters worse the problem is compounded when you consider that many gear "upgrades" like season 1 to season 2 have more stam and LESS INTEL. Such is so significant that with the new lifetap change "upgrading" from season 1 armor to season 2 armor would leave the warlock much worse off than before.
Comparing warlock's ability to lifetap to other casters makes no sense either. Across the board all warlock gear involves the principle of high stam, low intel, no spirit and no mp/5. Warlocks are a unique caster because they have no baseline mana return that doesn't cost health. They also have the fewest mana returning talents of casters.
Blizzard says this change is geared towards hurting us in pvp which is idiotic for several reasons. The change does more than hurt warlocks, it cripples them right to the core of the class. It isn't a pvp nerf, it affects every aspect of play. Warlocks are in no way dominating pvp. In fact, arena representation charts show warlocks slipping to just below average while warriors remain #1 in every bracket.
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Lifetap and what it means to "scale"Follow
firstsamurai wrote:
With this lifetap nerf I think it's important people understand the principle of scaling. For instance, this lifetap nerf does not mean stamina is a detrimental stat. People are saying things like "Now taking a fort buff will hurt me!" which is wrong...
Someone give this man a cookie. Stamina IS NOT DETRIMENTAL WITH THIS VERSION OF LIFE TAP.
If you Life Tap at 11K/11K and it were to take away 10% of your max HP, when you used it you would be at 9.9K/11K. If you did that at 10K/10K you would then have 9K/10K.
It IS however true that the scaling gets worse as you get more stamina.
I think it would be better if it scaled negatively with RESILIENCE. I'm not saying it should be mangled horrifically in PvP gear, but say, the current (live) version with a slight buff, but the health loss is increased by 200% of your Resilience.
This would mean a nerf for PvP mana efficiency which increases as gear scales, which wouldn't be too crippling (extra -1K per tap at Resilience cap).
Taking a fort buff won't hurt, it will just increase the overall negative effect of the ability.
Stacking STA is detrimental with this change in the aspect that it increases the total overall negative effect of the ability while providing absolutely no positive return.
Basically, this is making the class design policy of STA > INT wrong while making INT > STA (Which the devs have told us to do to compensate for the change) the better choice in regards to the effect of lifetap. The problem with this is Warlocks do not have the same "saving grace" abilities as mages and priests.
Also, fear has become a joke. Not only is it effected by interrupts, pushback and spell lock, almost every class has the ability to break fear either through PvP trinkets or class abilities. Add on top of that the two minute CD of Deathcoil and you have the absolute last defense of a Warlcok, their stacked STA, which is now having a negative scaling impact on our cornerstone mana regenerating abilities.
Stacking STA is detrimental with this change in the aspect that it increases the total overall negative effect of the ability while providing absolutely no positive return.
Basically, this is making the class design policy of STA > INT wrong while making INT > STA (Which the devs have told us to do to compensate for the change) the better choice in regards to the effect of lifetap. The problem with this is Warlocks do not have the same "saving grace" abilities as mages and priests.
Also, fear has become a joke. Not only is it effected by interrupts, pushback and spell lock, almost every class has the ability to break fear either through PvP trinkets or class abilities. Add on top of that the two minute CD of Deathcoil and you have the absolute last defense of a Warlcok, their stacked STA, which is now having a negative scaling impact on our cornerstone mana regenerating abilities.
it may not 'hurt' you, but it definately will 'hurt' the healers mana. that's the main issue with the new scaling. that and in pvp it means we take massive chunks out of our health for tiny amounts of mana (in terms of number of spells usable, amount of healing required etc...)
Jenovaomega wrote:
but it definately will 'hurt' the healers mana
And thats one of the main things nobody seems to be catching. Our DPS is heavily dependent on the graces of our healers. The increase in attention we require from our healers is going to be considerable with no increase in our overall DPS.
Scholar
17 posts
Jenovaomega wrote:
it may not 'hurt' you, but it definately will 'hurt' the healers mana. that's the main issue with the new scaling. that and in pvp it means we take massive chunks out of our health for tiny amounts of mana (in terms of number of spells usable, amount of healing required etc...)
That's a good point. In terms of raiding, stamina for warlocks is just more healing for the healers to do now.
In a way I could see how stamina could be considered detrimental for raiding warlocks then. On one end, healers don't necessarily have to keep locks lifebars topped off but the fact of the matter is they will.
It's hard to fully encompass the lifetap change because its just stupid on all ends.
The last I saw was that they were reviewing this change on the PTR due to massive feedback. So this change might not come in the live environment.
Let's hope so...
Let's hope so...
Thmpax wrote:
The last I saw was that they were reviewing this change on the PTR due to massive feedback. So this change might not come in the live environment.
They did review it. In the ultimate wisdom that is Blizzard, they decided to change it from 15% to 20%.
as well as adding 3 ranks. 5% to 5%, 12% to 12% and then the well known, 20% to 20%
I can't honestly see a big issue with this change wrt raiding warlocks. Our guild's healers know that the locks are going to need to lifetap to keep the damage up. One of our druids usually pops a lifebloom on them when they get low allowing for relatively safe lifetapping when they get a spare moment. It might be a pain for you guys but its hardly game breaking.
Here is an interesting post that explains why having more stam (ie fort buff) is truly a bad thing if the LT change goes through. 2 cases.
10000/10000hp
spend mana and lifetap 3 times->4000hp
get healed for 6000->10000hp
lifetap 3 times->4000hp
get healed for 6000->10000hp
lifetap 3 times->4000hp
with fort: 6480
10800/10800hp
lifetap 3 times->4320hp
get healed for 6000->10320hp
lifetap 3 times->3840hp
get healed for 6000->9840hp
lifetap 3 times->3360hp
The lock with fortitude has less hp now. He needs more healing to get the same amount of mana back. And he's going to be lifetapping many, many times over the course of a raid battle. Fortitude wastes healer mana and time and becomes a liability to the raid.
Quote:
10000/10000hp
spend mana and lifetap 3 times->4000hp
get healed for 6000->10000hp
lifetap 3 times->4000hp
get healed for 6000->10000hp
lifetap 3 times->4000hp
with fort: 6480
10800/10800hp
lifetap 3 times->4320hp
get healed for 6000->10320hp
lifetap 3 times->3840hp
get healed for 6000->9840hp
lifetap 3 times->3360hp
The lock with fortitude has less hp now. He needs more healing to get the same amount of mana back. And he's going to be lifetapping many, many times over the course of a raid battle. Fortitude wastes healer mana and time and becomes a liability to the raid.
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Instead of complaining about how much this might hurt, why not use a lower rank of the spell? 10% (the rank I would use) of one's health should be less than the current life:mana ratio, if you wanted to get the most mana for the least health.
For PVP, who is going to tap their life while in a fight? I usually do it in between fights, because it saves time and I can recover faster if I am not being pounded.
During instances and a few raids, my warlock is the least burden on the healer, as should be any warlock. We can use Drain Life all day long, and it makes it easier on the healer, so why not do what we would usually do? I sometimes ask to be healed last, so that the healer can work on everyone who is getting attacked more than I tend to be, and it works fine.
So, I think this particular stab pales in comparison to all the other things Blizzard has done. They need to worry about classes that actually ARE over-powered, like healers that can wear plate and mail armor, or rogues and of course rogues. I am actually more frustrated at the reduction in +damage that will be granted by Demonic Knowledge-- WTF??
For PVP, who is going to tap their life while in a fight? I usually do it in between fights, because it saves time and I can recover faster if I am not being pounded.
Quote:
In terms of raiding, stamina for warlocks is just more healing for the healers to do now.
During instances and a few raids, my warlock is the least burden on the healer, as should be any warlock. We can use Drain Life all day long, and it makes it easier on the healer, so why not do what we would usually do? I sometimes ask to be healed last, so that the healer can work on everyone who is getting attacked more than I tend to be, and it works fine.
So, I think this particular stab pales in comparison to all the other things Blizzard has done. They need to worry about classes that actually ARE over-powered, like healers that can wear plate and mail armor, or rogues and of course rogues. I am actually more frustrated at the reduction in +damage that will be granted by Demonic Knowledge-- WTF??
rogues are overpowered? lol...resiliance killing whole builds, anyone?
healers in mail... shaman? yes shaman way OP in pvp...
Quote:
rogues are overpowered? lol...resiliance killing whole builds, anyone?
*cough* Destruction/PoM-Pyro *cough*
Sorry, my throat's been acting up recently. I don't think Rogues are overpowered per-se, just that Warlocks need some loving in the physical defense department. I'd love to face some slight nerfs to our anti-caster overpoweredness if it meant standing a chance against Hunters, Warriors and Rogues.
Nevermind
Edited, Mar 16th 2008 8:17pm by germa
Edited, Mar 16th 2008 8:17pm by germa
Quote:
I'd love to face some slight nerfs to our anti-caster overpoweredness if it meant standing a chance against Hunters, Warriors and Rogues.
Amen... The amount of random factors that have to be in my favor to beat these classes (especially Hunters) is so staggering that "l2play" and "skill" are totally irrelevant. They just need to miss 8 times in a row versus my +0 Defense Skill.
Then again, I can beat a Hunter if his back is turned, and hes already at 50%hp, and hes 61 Survival, and his equip is red, and hes sleeping, and his pets not out.
Also, to the point of the OP and the majority of posts here...
This nerf WILL affect PVP arctards, and in the end may be a BONUS to PVE. Nobody is thinking outside the box here.
Look at the gearset/talentset/playstyle of most classes in the game... theres a sharp divide between PVP and PVE.
Frost Mage with 11000hp 7000mp and 280 Resilience does what? Anyone?
What about the Fire Mage with 8000hp 14000mp and +202 Spell Hit? Golly ya'll are smart!
Fact is... you're gonna see a sharper divide in playstyles, but a % per % tradeoff in Lifetap will BOOST PVE effectiveness if Warlocks start to gear correctly for it. Yes, it's gonna totally suck... and your not gonna be able to PVP and PVE in a similiar set of gear or talents, but you will see a lot more Raid/Heroics Locks with 8khp and 14kmp after this goes through.
Where will this really hurt drastically? In the 20-70 Level Grind. They'll live.
This nerf WILL affect PVP arctards, and in the end may be a BONUS to PVE. Nobody is thinking outside the box here.
Look at the gearset/talentset/playstyle of most classes in the game... theres a sharp divide between PVP and PVE.
Frost Mage with 11000hp 7000mp and 280 Resilience does what? Anyone?
What about the Fire Mage with 8000hp 14000mp and +202 Spell Hit? Golly ya'll are smart!
Fact is... you're gonna see a sharper divide in playstyles, but a % per % tradeoff in Lifetap will BOOST PVE effectiveness if Warlocks start to gear correctly for it. Yes, it's gonna totally suck... and your not gonna be able to PVP and PVE in a similiar set of gear or talents, but you will see a lot more Raid/Heroics Locks with 8khp and 14kmp after this goes through.
Where will this really hurt drastically? In the 20-70 Level Grind. They'll live.
there's only 1 problem when trying to gear for intellect, none of the warlock sets are mana friendly, they are all health intensive, and luckily life tap nerf was cancelled
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