Origins of BM vs MM?Follow

To what you said Sloshot. Bravo. /round of applause

You and I will have to differ on what makes a good hunter North.

By what I'm reading as your definition, to me, that would be a good 'video game player' in the all around sense. If you can do everything well, class, spec, whatever, you are a good gamer.

However, I would propose that the good gamer you espouse, up against someone who can play some class, and even to some spec just as well but they aren't as good at other specs or classes... is just as good at the area they are 'good' at.

Skill will always be greater than spec from my point of view as skill is what drives quality of play, spec only drives area of utility. You can't focus on one area and say "Only Spec X can do this". We've gone over this and the difference just isn't large enough to worry about. Where a BM hunter might out DPS an MM or SV hunter, they add utility elsewhere that might prevent a wipe or save the groups bacon. If only BM hunters can end-game RAID, and that is what you espouse, then put forward your full theory for anyone to pick apart. Trust me, you'll get more feedback than you want...

In my opinion there is no such thing as equality. That is the realm of Theorycraft and it appears to me that most of your arguments are based on Theorycraft. Even the same player is not equal in play ability across spec. It's truly impossible to bring perfect Theorycraft to fuition in the game. Too many variables, too much chaos and complexity in actual play.

So definitionally:

A "Good" Hunter plays their spec well enough that there's no major tears in doing whatever it is they are doing and they really aren't noticed for any negatives.

A "Great" Hunter plays their spec so well that everyone takes notice of their actions and makes an effort to bring them back over and over again because they make everyone else look "Great".

Now if your comments about "Need to be an MM hunter to do damage" is directed fully at me, I claim AMEN and agree with you. I am probably far from a skilled hunter. I'd probably rate myself as a below average gamer for this type of game. Doesn't make it any less fun though. But it also doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. I work with very skilled hunters and know where I rate and watch them closely so I can learn. I also don't put myself in situations where my lack of skills can harm a group. I play on a sucky arena team and my skills are actually mediocre but improving there. I don't raid and I do PvE. So I play to my level of play.

Sloshot, let me introduce you to this brick wall over here. You might have better luck talking to it.

I commend you for your effort. You stated the case logically and effectively, in my opinion. I recognize your point and fully agree with you; I stated basically the same thing in my earlier post. For some, however, that brick wall I introduced you to is probably more receptive to what you're saying because they're unable to look beyond theorycrafting (which is not in dispute) at the real world situation.

You cannnot say you are the best unless you have done super kiting or pulled off a flawless 5 trap

Aethien:

No, I don't think you HATE MM, but I also don't buy that there's no utility.

You mean to tell me that nothing in a RAID can be affected by silencing shot?

You mean to tell me that TSA has no utility in a group where all the BM hunter buffs are played out?

I find these concepts hard to grasp. Admittedly I don't RAID, so perhaps MM is useless in a RAID, has zero utility and no purpose. I freely admit that might be possible, but I'll let other RAIDers discuss that.

I would think if you have 4-5 hunters in a RAID, that having 1 be MM and 1 be SV would be a good thing, that is if strategies can be implemented to use their utility. If not, then perhaps Blizz thinks that RAID's should only be BM as they've shut off any utility at all for MM in RAID. I certainly used MM last night in AV to kick some booty so maybe Blizz feels MM should do RAID. I don't know, I'm not in on their meetings.

As for your comments regarding skill, not everyone plays with macros.

I also find the 'Skill' in being a hunter is not mashing a button, it's being in the right place at the right time doing the right thing to the right target.

We've gone over and over all the things required of a Good Hunter, and it's a large list. I RARELY have time to sit back and mash a button. It's a luxury for me to be in a fight where I have that kind of time. That's PvE play to me, let the cat take all the abuse, I mash a button: easy mode but boring!

If RAID is that easy, then wow, maybe I CAN be a BM button masher. I can't even scan my screen in less than a second to determine what I'm going to do next let alone keep up a 1 second shot rotation. So I do envy BM players, at least the 'skilled' ones.

PvP certainly isn't that easy... I think I've been able to macro button mash for a total of about 32.7 seconds in the months I've been playing Arena. Then again, it helps when I live longer than a few seconds. :)

Perhaps if your mindset is "Hunters are for DPS only" then you become nothing but a button masher. Perhaps that's all a hunter is for RAID... if so, I'm glad I don't RAID because I'd die of boredom.

There are CLEAR imperical accounts given by folks here on Alla that state their issues when changing spec and that certain specs don't work well for them. If all specs work well for you: Great Job! You are an awesome gamer! Here's your gold star... *

However, if you find that one just 'isn't your speed' then perhaps I'm a bit correct and not everyone can play every spec to its fullest. It's a concept that when accepted makes one far more pliable to new ideas.

I've made my points, be they right or wrong, agree with them or not, I'm done with the spec crap. Play what and however you will, you paid your money just like I did.

This is so completely wrong as to be laughable.

So, you say you must leave out the theorycraft, of which there is reams and reams showing the mechanical advantages of BM. And then you roll right into your own little version of theorycraft, which somehow and with zero backing data comes to the conclusion that some magical player skill factor makes more difference than the purely mechanical advantages which separate the Hunter spec options.

And then you compound it by saying that you must leave out ego, while playing to this non-measurable and purely ego laden concept of player skill.

Instead, get on the bus and recognize that in order to accurately measure the mechanical differences between the Hunter spec options, player skill has to be thrown out the window.

A drooling idiot playing a Hunter of any spec will lose over and over to a skilled Hunter playing with zero Talents allocated. And what will that have proven? Nothing. Skill can be observed but it can not be measured.

But to say that mechanically the advantages offered by 5/5 Serpent's Swiftness, in combination with current ranged weapon itemization, offer the BM Hunter an advantage in DPS performance over a MM Hunter or a SV Hunter, this is something which can be measured, calculated, peer reviewed, critiqued, and rebutted. Using game mechanics, as opposed to some illusionary factor of player skill.

Skill is important, don't think that I'm saying it is not. But to make an apples to apples comparison you have to start from a fair baseline. And currently, that fair baseline shows that BM is the Hunter spec with the advantages, followed by SV, and trailed by MM.

Edited, Feb 29th 2008 6:20pm by Kompera

Yes. 3% more damage for the group is so far superior to 150 AP it's not even funny, and the last time I remember seeing Silence work in a raid was in Ahn'Quiraj (pre-TBC).



What utility? TSA isn't exactly special. Survival is worth bringing because their AP contribution is significant (and raid-wide), MM is not worth bringing for inferior utility and inferior DPS.

I'm sorry you missed my point completely Kompera.

Theorycraft deals with, as you say, mechanicals. Measureable predictions based on math. You can do all that with a calculator. WoW isn't played with a calculator but a human.

You said it yourself "A drooling idiot playing a Hunter of any spec will lose over and over to a skilled Hunter playing with zero Talents allocated." Theorycraft won't help that drooling idiot a bit. Thus Theorycraft is the weaker link, Skill is predominate as a meterstick. That is my point.

Honestly, I wasn't making my own "theorycraft" up. I was using basic logic. Sorry, perhaps it wasn't advanced enough.

We spend so much time around here talking Theorycraft and less time talking technique, strategy and tips/tricks. I wonder what's left to actually talk about.

I've said my bit on spec, it's AN OPINION and as such doesn't require backing or proof. I am not going to take the time to look up all the comments I was referring to. You are a regular here, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm not espousing the virtues of MM hunters, nor am I defending the spec. I am trying to get people to see that every spec has viability, and at the very least should not be the primary meterstick by which a hunter is allowed to play in an area of the end-game. Skill should be that meterstick, followed by gear, then if the RAID group is on the edge of being viable, perhaps look at spec if you want to keep a weaker player or more with lesser gear. Maybe the group can't afford that MM hunter. We have BM hunters in Arena, they are still dangerous even if they aren't the optimal spec.

Aethien:

Thank you for your follow up comments. You're probably right, people probably don't want to succeed at a given spec, maybe it's harder or not as fun for them, but to me, that's just as viable of a reason not to play a given spec for them as to whether or not they are skilled at it. I was lumping them all together conceptually, meaning that a player just isn't as good at that spec by talent or choice. I agree with you totally on that point.

I'm impressed, I hardly ever get a steady shot off in PvP. I'm usually engaged by someone or something long before that and have to react to what they are doing. Are you doing something to hide well? I'm always the second or first target of choice. Maybe folks feel hunters are too dangerous in PvP. I see all kinds of specs in PvP. People want to get some of the easy gear and not bother respecing. If they make it so that you can't get anything without a personal 1850 rating, well, then you'll see the Arena just become the optimal specs with god-like players. An unskilled idiot like me would never fit in.

"And about the its my cash, when you are playing with 24 other people, its their ~260 bucks too."

I agree, it is... but they have a choice to let the person in the Group or not.

I didn't realize that FI stacks, so yeah, TSA would be weaker.

I'm not trying to say someone should SPEC for MM for RAID's, but let's say that a skilled player feels like RAIDing a given night, and it's expensive to respec so they show up in MM clothing. Is it really going to hurt the RAID to let in a skilled MM spec hunter or pick up another average BM hunter. It sounds to me like it's being argued that no matter how skilled an MM hunter is, that they are just not viable RAIDers due to the slightly weaker DPS. That feels all kinds of odd to me. I am NOT that much of a perfectionist.

I will take risks and it's sooooo much cooler when they pan out.

Key word "can", doesn't mean I do, no sir, I manually press that steady shot and kill command, I weave those bad boys in between auto-shots like I am a professional basket weaver.


Plus I can't use the macro, because lag spikes in my FPS make it less DPS for me :-(

If you have such poor frame rates, the macro should improve your performance, not decrease it. The number of commands sent while mashing is vastly greater than you can send while hand weaving, and your hand weaving will be off timing due to your frame rate. Macro mashing might be also off timing, but it's far more likely to be closer to the correct timing.

Try binding the macro to your mouse wheel. I've heard that this is great for people with a lot of lag, as the mouse wheel sends hundreds/thousands/many (I don't recall the figure, I do recall being impressed) of commands per second as you roll the mouse wheel.


I don't believe I've missed your point. I understand you, but I disagree with you. Since skill can not be measured, it does not bear discussing. As we agree, a skilled Hunter can outperform a non skilled Hunter. But in the examination of the mechanics of the game the question is not "what tips and tricks can let a skilled Hunter prevail over a non-skilled Hunter," or even "how can we teach Hunters to be more skilled?" Rather, it is "assuming any number of Hunters of equal skill, how can we maximize their potential damage output, given the game environment as it exists today." Once you've established that, then it's fine to start taking about the skills needed to operate a Hunter within that framework. Because at that point you'll have already established that operating a Hunter outside of that framework is the less optimal choice. And that's a part of skill.

We don't differ at all, because I'm not assuming near equal skill.

*sigh* Is it fair to ask you to re-read my previous posts, where I carefully explained that skill was irrelevant? And the whole part about examining the mechanics to see how to maximize potential performance? And how, once the mechanicaly best options have been established, it's at that point that skill can start to make a meaningful difference.

Because showing that a skilled person with a street pistol can hit a target with more accuracy than a rank amateur with a target pistol doesn't speak to the weapon as much as it speaks to the individual. Which doesn't help any observer decide which gun to use. Instead, you need to carefully examine the mechanics of both pistols. After noting that the target pistol is designed for the least amount of moving parts, the recoil actually stabilizes the weapon rather than forcing the barrel up after a shot, etc, then you can decide which weapon has the potential to provide the best performance in the hands of a skilled shooter.

Silence shot works on Shade in Kara. While the CD is not optimal it does help when no one else can stop a cast.

I have to agree with Sloshot. While I have played both specs and I enjoy both. I have more fun with MM and due to the fact that I PVP and PVE I prefer the PVP spec for this reason as I like to be able to burn players down quickly.

In the raid group I run with for Kara they ask all players with a pet to despawn them at Shade to prevent the pet from setting off the insta wipe move he uses. (Flame something or other)

In that case the TSA will definately be better for the Melee classes then nothing at all. (And no I am not saying anyone should spec for MM just for this reason.)

I feel I perform better as a MM instead of BM. Though I have improved my gear drastically so that might have something to do with it. (Will respec once I get my Axe and leggings for PVP and then will test that theory.)