I am just curious from where the rivalry sprang. I find that I often catch hell from some MM hunters in my guild because I am BM. I even run into it at work some times. I would LOVE to have silencing shot but BM usually meets my needs. Is it the absolute best in the world.. no.. but MM and SV seem to have some big deficiencies as well. In some ways I think it's kind of funny because I have been online when the occasional BM vs MM arguments break out. I have no doubt that if you could attack people of your own faction in BGs there would be huge MM vs BM wars with horde and alliance MM hunters of each type, teaming up to attack the other.
I am fairly new to WoW, actually I started the Tuesday in November when some major patch came out, so I don't know much (if anything) of the way things were. Was there anything specific that caused the apparent animosity? Was there once a time when one way or the other was clearly the better choice and those not choosing it were ostracized for it?
I know most MM hunters have no problem with BM hunters and the same with the BM and the MM but there does seem to be some kind of flash point between the two that I haven't seen with other jobs. Other jobs may have their issues as well, but I haven't been sitting at an AH in town and had them flooding general chat over it.
Just wondered if there was a reason behind it or if it's the standard "because we do" type of deal.
Edited, Feb 25th 2008 1:03pm by MrTalos
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Origins of BM vs MM?Follow
It's all Caldone's fault... It's people like him who spread hate on the internet.
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Utarius wrote:
It's all Caldone's fault... It's people like him who spread hate on the internet.
<3
<3
True story. Caldone is a hate mongerer.01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
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You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
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Meh, just duel the idiots. If your gear is on parity you'll slaughter them. Silencing doesn't 'work' on you, while you'll be able to Freezing Trap their Pet while yours will keep chewing on them as you shoot. Once you beat them 5+ times in a row then talk about Talent specs...
Kompera wrote:
Meh, just duel the idiots. If your gear is on parity you'll slaughter them. Silencing doesn't 'work' on you, while you'll be able to Freezing Trap their Pet while yours will keep chewing on them as you shoot. Once you beat them 5+ times in a row then talk about Talent specs...
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The reason for it is TBC. When TBC hit, Marksmen got ********* with a Deep Thunder. Most of them realized this, accepted it, and respecced to the new raidspeccs BM/MM and Surv/MM. But then you have the fossils like Caldone and a few others that holds a deathgrip on their past, denying BM's new superiority as the DPS specc over all others.
Those of us that hated MM already before TBC, and resented the fact that without a MM specc, we couldn't raid... Well, we are gloating. I love rubbing a Marksman's nose in his nigh useless pet's *****. Baaaad bad Hunter. Thinking he can DPS. Now I can both raid and solo better than he ever could.
So basically, we BMs are just doing our duty by making fun of those that refuse to realize the uselessness of their speccs. Of course, for 3vs3 or 5vs5, I'll give MM it's due. For anything else, you go BM/MM or Surv/MM.
Those of us that hated MM already before TBC, and resented the fact that without a MM specc, we couldn't raid... Well, we are gloating. I love rubbing a Marksman's nose in his nigh useless pet's *****. Baaaad bad Hunter. Thinking he can DPS. Now I can both raid and solo better than he ever could.
So basically, we BMs are just doing our duty by making fun of those that refuse to realize the uselessness of their speccs. Of course, for 3vs3 or 5vs5, I'll give MM it's due. For anything else, you go BM/MM or Surv/MM.
Kompera wrote:
Meh, just duel the idiots. If your gear is on parity you'll slaughter them. Silencing doesn't 'work' on you, while you'll be able to Freezing Trap their Pet while yours will keep chewing on them as you shoot. Once you beat them 5+ times in a row then talk about Talent specs...
This reluctantly makes me think of all the noobs I've met in instances, whom I've gotten into an argument with. They end up saying "oh yeah well u wana duel about it???". Like that's going to prove a point what so ever...
While I'm used to thoroughly mock and degrade the MM spec, you have to keep in mind: The most skilled PvP player in the world is an MM hunter. However, BM will eat MM in PvE.
A few weeks back me and the other top raid hunter went into ZA to take down the bear boss. She was a die hard MM and I was/ am a die hard BM. She was fully Kara geared with both the bow and rifle and anything Hunters could want from Kara along with Badge pieces that are beyond Kara quality. I was about half-Kara geared, had the Steelhawk X-bow and all my accessories and a few armor pieces still blue.
After the fight the damage meters had her as first, me as second and our top DPS Lock at 3rd, who normally beats everyone but we two hunters by a very fair margin.
She, as MM, had about 18% damage with an avg DPS of 923, while me as BM had about 16% damage with an average DPS of 972. She opened with MD and her Aimed, Multi and Arcane all critted, and never had to FD throughout the fight. I waited about 8 seconds before starting into the boss had to FD almost ever CD because I was climbing the threat meter so fast. Not a single word was said between us or the raid at the time, but the next time she and I raided together, she had a carbon copy of my build and asked me what my macros were and my fight sequence was.
I think that right there pretty much says all there is to say about MM vs BM in raids, now we are both fully epicced out but the rifle still hasn't dropped for me so she still slightly out DPS's me, which kind of pisses me off, but no one else in the guild can touch our DPS and I still go into Kara for Badges and the Rifle hoping it will drop.
MM had it's time now it's BM's turn.... every other class has a top DPS spec why should Hunters be any different?
After the fight the damage meters had her as first, me as second and our top DPS Lock at 3rd, who normally beats everyone but we two hunters by a very fair margin.
She, as MM, had about 18% damage with an avg DPS of 923, while me as BM had about 16% damage with an average DPS of 972. She opened with MD and her Aimed, Multi and Arcane all critted, and never had to FD throughout the fight. I waited about 8 seconds before starting into the boss had to FD almost ever CD because I was climbing the threat meter so fast. Not a single word was said between us or the raid at the time, but the next time she and I raided together, she had a carbon copy of my build and asked me what my macros were and my fight sequence was.
I think that right there pretty much says all there is to say about MM vs BM in raids, now we are both fully epicced out but the rifle still hasn't dropped for me so she still slightly out DPS's me, which kind of pisses me off, but no one else in the guild can touch our DPS and I still go into Kara for Badges and the Rifle hoping it will drop.
MM had it's time now it's BM's turn.... every other class has a top DPS spec why should Hunters be any different?
topped 1000 yet katchii? It's such a good feeling. If you're using a slower ranged weapon and can get in a spriest group (or have a tankadin with seal of wisdom) try using a 3:2 shot cycle. It should boost your dps a bit.
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My average DPS now is 1050-1150 with Sunfury and +28 crit scope. I'm praying for the Rifle to drop, but in the meantime i'm working on getting the Dragonspine trophy from Gruul to offset the RAS of the bow and the Tsunami Talisman to finally replace Bladefists Breath. I am also debating working my *** off in BG's to get the Battlemasters Cruelty trinket.
I am loving my build/ equip right now as the Bow is cooler than the Gun but i'm not gonna debate numbers... the Gun is just better DPS for BM, period.
I'm a macro spammer in raids, I don't pay much attention to my DPS in the fight as I keep an eye out for all the other crap that can happen on the fights we do now (Gruul, ZA Bird and Lynx, Lurker, Hydross..) so I don't really know what my shot rotation is 1:1 or 3:2 but meh, my DPS is fine only thing that can make it better is 4 piece T5 set bonus and the Gun from Kara or the one from Doomwalker, or of course just higher end content drops.
I am loving my build/ equip right now as the Bow is cooler than the Gun but i'm not gonna debate numbers... the Gun is just better DPS for BM, period.
I'm a macro spammer in raids, I don't pay much attention to my DPS in the fight as I keep an eye out for all the other crap that can happen on the fights we do now (Gruul, ZA Bird and Lynx, Lurker, Hydross..) so I don't really know what my shot rotation is 1:1 or 3:2 but meh, my DPS is fine only thing that can make it better is 4 piece T5 set bonus and the Gun from Kara or the one from Doomwalker, or of course just higher end content drops.
In my opinion, the whole debate between BM and MM is really trivial. Sure, theoretically BM can squeeze out more dps than MM can. But, in my experience it's skill that really makes a difference.
As the classlead for my guild, I never tell a hunter they have to spec BM or MM. It's up to them as long as they're not specc'd in some completely stupid way. I don't find that it really matters in raid situations whether someone is BM or MM. It's things like do they know how to watch their aggro, or stay out of a cave-in, or whatever that really makes the difference.
I would guess that the majority of raiders out there are in semi-casual guilds with a mix of skills among players. In the uberleet guilds out to maximize every ounce of dps, then sure BM is the way to go. But for the rest of the world where skill is variable, I really don't think it makes a whole lot of difference. An average player playing BM isn't going to completely outshine an average player playing MM, or vice versa.
As the classlead for my guild, I never tell a hunter they have to spec BM or MM. It's up to them as long as they're not specc'd in some completely stupid way. I don't find that it really matters in raid situations whether someone is BM or MM. It's things like do they know how to watch their aggro, or stay out of a cave-in, or whatever that really makes the difference.
I would guess that the majority of raiders out there are in semi-casual guilds with a mix of skills among players. In the uberleet guilds out to maximize every ounce of dps, then sure BM is the way to go. But for the rest of the world where skill is variable, I really don't think it makes a whole lot of difference. An average player playing BM isn't going to completely outshine an average player playing MM, or vice versa.
I'll agree with Azwing about the fact that raids/ groups as a whole are far more dependant on player skill, which can include class skill, but it's not necessary all the time.
950 vs 1050 DPS is not going to make or break a fight in a raid or group, whereas the player knowing how not to cause a wipe can obviously make or break a raid.
it's always been said on this forum, but let me put it this way.
In raids and guild progression as a whole:
Skill > Build (and gear bu reasonably so, obviously no matter what epic > blue > greens)
but when it comes to pure and simple damage capability..
BM > MM
but guild progression is FAR more important than personal DPS, but you can't really do one without the other so... I guess we can break it doen more like this:
Player Skill/ Raid perfomance > Class Skill/ Personal Performance > Build
950 vs 1050 DPS is not going to make or break a fight in a raid or group, whereas the player knowing how not to cause a wipe can obviously make or break a raid.
it's always been said on this forum, but let me put it this way.
In raids and guild progression as a whole:
Skill > Build (and gear bu reasonably so, obviously no matter what epic > blue > greens)
but when it comes to pure and simple damage capability..
BM > MM
but guild progression is FAR more important than personal DPS, but you can't really do one without the other so... I guess we can break it doen more like this:
Player Skill/ Raid perfomance > Class Skill/ Personal Performance > Build
Good god, I don't hate, just dislike, come on Ut, you should know better...
Before TBC, if you were BM, you just weren't allowed in raids. In fact, a lot of raid leaders would just tell hunters to put the pets away all together. SV wasn't as developed as it is now, so it wasn't really suggested, either. The only thing to do was to go MM for end-game content. It was just really difficult for hunters to get into raid groups. We had gimped DPS from not having our pets, and traps were more difficult to use, so we weren't very good crowd control.
I come from an interesting position. I leveled from 10-55 as BM, but was asked to respec to MM for when I hit 60 and could start raiding. By time I hit outlands, I had gotten so used to MM that I just didn't want to go back. I leveled to 70 as MM with a pre-TBC elitest notion that MM was the only way to go after level 55.
But then I gave up trying to defend the build, and tried out BM for kara and OMG I loved it. I still appreciate MM for its tricks like scatter shot and silencing shot. God, I miss those skills. But unless MM gets some uber-smexy-IWIN button with WotLK, I just don't think I'll go back. The most I'll do is spec out of the cookie-cutter BM-raid build, and go to a cookie-cutter BM-grind build.
Looking back on everything, I don't regret my leveling/grinding build at all. For raiding, however, I just wouldn't suggest MM. BM does better DPS. I don't even miss Silencing shot or Scatter Shot in raids.
I come from an interesting position. I leveled from 10-55 as BM, but was asked to respec to MM for when I hit 60 and could start raiding. By time I hit outlands, I had gotten so used to MM that I just didn't want to go back. I leveled to 70 as MM with a pre-TBC elitest notion that MM was the only way to go after level 55.
But then I gave up trying to defend the build, and tried out BM for kara and OMG I loved it. I still appreciate MM for its tricks like scatter shot and silencing shot. God, I miss those skills. But unless MM gets some uber-smexy-IWIN button with WotLK, I just don't think I'll go back. The most I'll do is spec out of the cookie-cutter BM-raid build, and go to a cookie-cutter BM-grind build.
Looking back on everything, I don't regret my leveling/grinding build at all. For raiding, however, I just wouldn't suggest MM. BM does better DPS. I don't even miss Silencing shot or Scatter Shot in raids.
Pre-TBC, BM Hunters were the idiot spec of the idiot class. Completely trivial to level, fairly OP in PvP (BGs) but awful in any kind of instance. They correctly developed a bit of a bad rep - think of how people think of Ret Paladins today, except they were actually good at PvP.
After TBC, that changed. Not instantly by any means, but BM Hunters got significant buffs while MM remained stagnant in terms of PvE but picked up some strong PvP abilities - mostly Silencing Shot, but Arenas and Resilience deemphasized BMs burst in favor of sustained control and mana drain, both of which MM does considerably better than BM. The two specs changed sides, which was a bit of an... adjustment, to say the least, but despite the old impressions BM really is the PvE kind and MM really is the PvP king now.
After TBC, that changed. Not instantly by any means, but BM Hunters got significant buffs while MM remained stagnant in terms of PvE but picked up some strong PvP abilities - mostly Silencing Shot, but Arenas and Resilience deemphasized BMs burst in favor of sustained control and mana drain, both of which MM does considerably better than BM. The two specs changed sides, which was a bit of an... adjustment, to say the least, but despite the old impressions BM really is the PvE kind and MM really is the PvP king now.
Utarius wrote:
Kompera wrote:
Meh, just duel the idiots. If your gear is on parity you'll slaughter them. Silencing doesn't 'work' on you, while you'll be able to Freezing Trap their Pet while yours will keep chewing on them as you shoot. Once you beat them 5+ times in a row then talk about Talent specs...
This reluctantly makes me think of all the noobs I've met in instances, whom I've gotten into an argument with. They end up saying "oh yeah well u wana duel about it???". Like that's going to prove a point what so ever...
While I'm used to thoroughly mock and degrade the MM spec, you have to keep in mind: The most skilled PvP player in the world is an MM hunter. However, BM will eat MM in PvE.
And while the MM spec offers some excellent PvP advantages, spec alone doesn't make for a skilled PvP player. And the most skilled PvP player in the world still has an arena partner who is 50% of that teams successes.
Sir Xsarus wrote:
topped 1000 yet katchii? It's such a good feeling. If you're using a slower ranged weapon and can get in a spriest group (or have a tankadin with seal of wisdom) try using a 3:2 shot cycle. It should boost your dps a bit.
azwing wrote:
In my opinion, the whole debate between BM and MM is really trivial. Sure, theoretically BM can squeeze out more dps than MM can. But, in my experience it's skill that really makes a difference.
Caldone the Shady wrote:
Good god, I don't hate, just dislike, come on Ut, you should know better...
Noo... you don't hate. But there's just something about you that makes everyone hate what you say, do and even think (although it's completely unknown to everyone, they still hate it for the sake of hating).
I don't know what it is... can't put my finger on it.
*cough* MM *cough*
So it's not that you're hating everyone. It's that everyone hates you, and it's your fault. <--- See? You spread hate.
:)
Utarius wrote:
*cough* MM in PvE *cough*
*looks to left, sees BM Hunter*
*Looks to right, sees MM Hunter*
SURVIVAL SPECIAL UTERUS DOUBLE PUNCH!
*BM Hunter Falls*
*MM Hunter Falls*
*Places frost trap and runs*
*Looks to right, sees MM Hunter*
SURVIVAL SPECIAL UTERUS DOUBLE PUNCH!
*BM Hunter Falls*
*MM Hunter Falls*
*Places frost trap and runs*
*Big Red BM Hunter pet runs through trap and eats SV Hunter*
* Imp. Feign ftw....? *
Quote:
you have to keep in mind: The most skilled PvP player in the world is an MM hunter. However, BM will eat MM in PvE.
Lol, just lol. There's no "The most skilled PvP player". There are some VERY skilled, but I bet you - any of them could take each other depending on how good a day they have.
krqllebqlle wrote:
Lol, just lol. There's no "The most skilled PvP player". There are some VERY skilled, but I bet you - any of them could take each other depending on how good a day they have.
Actually, there was a sort of 'crowning' of the best PvP player in the world. An NE alliance hunter on (back then) Talnivarr came at first place. He's transferred to Stormscale now. A Korean player came second. Two US came 3rd and 4th (I think... maybe one of them were 2nd, I can't remember).
Like it or not, this was the scenario. You can 'lol' about it all you want, it doesn't change it. While I know you can't possibly measure PvP skill fairly, it has been done.
It's all BS MrTalos... at least as far as the endgame goes.
Anyone saying X spec is better than Y spec has an axe to grind regardless of how they 'back it up'.
Caldone was "Mister Marksman" around here for a long time then he tried different specs. Now, he talks a little more 'openly'.
North eloquently proves my point with his clear predilection for his spec to the point of gnawing on MM even after, as he points out, "Marksmen got ********* with a Deep Thunder".
I have been nothing but MM spec and I see it's strengths and weaknesses. I admire those that can play BM spec, I'm not quick enough. SV, well, I doubt I can play that spec well either, you gotta have serious presence of mind to shine like a great hunter in that spec. When someone does though, you bow and go "I'm not worthy!"
To truely appreciate the inanity of this spec war you have to leave out theorcraft (yeah, lots of folks here are addicted to it, but you can't play it to the fullest) and leave out your ego. At the end of the day, player skill dominates the fight.
Those suggesting a duel- I laugh. Two evenly skilled hunters one with BM and one with MM would likely reach a near 50-50 matchup within about a 5% either way win-loss ratio (about the dps spread). The dps just isn't that far apart. If the MM hunter gets lucky with more crits, then the BM hunter dies fast. Duelling is a personal skill test, are you better than your opponent, it's also a luck test, as well as a PC test. My PC is slow, I pay for that by my toon being slow. My framerate rarely goes over 10. Welcome to Slideshow WoW. I watch these players with super PC's and they chew me up easily even though I watch them make dumb mistakes just like me. Duelling proves little.
Skill > Spec
What's really interesting is that someone might be able to play MM and do 1000+ dps and only do 800 dps in BM. Each spec lets the player specialize to their play skills. A BM player might reverse that and be unable to do proper damage as MM.
All specs should be welcome in ANY area of endgame as long as the player has the skill and the toon has the gear to deal with the area.
Someone PLEASE bury the spec war, it's silly and stupid during endgame. Be what you can play.
Levelling is a totally different argument...
Anyone saying X spec is better than Y spec has an axe to grind regardless of how they 'back it up'.
Caldone was "Mister Marksman" around here for a long time then he tried different specs. Now, he talks a little more 'openly'.
North eloquently proves my point with his clear predilection for his spec to the point of gnawing on MM even after, as he points out, "Marksmen got ********* with a Deep Thunder".
I have been nothing but MM spec and I see it's strengths and weaknesses. I admire those that can play BM spec, I'm not quick enough. SV, well, I doubt I can play that spec well either, you gotta have serious presence of mind to shine like a great hunter in that spec. When someone does though, you bow and go "I'm not worthy!"
To truely appreciate the inanity of this spec war you have to leave out theorcraft (yeah, lots of folks here are addicted to it, but you can't play it to the fullest) and leave out your ego. At the end of the day, player skill dominates the fight.
Those suggesting a duel- I laugh. Two evenly skilled hunters one with BM and one with MM would likely reach a near 50-50 matchup within about a 5% either way win-loss ratio (about the dps spread). The dps just isn't that far apart. If the MM hunter gets lucky with more crits, then the BM hunter dies fast. Duelling is a personal skill test, are you better than your opponent, it's also a luck test, as well as a PC test. My PC is slow, I pay for that by my toon being slow. My framerate rarely goes over 10. Welcome to Slideshow WoW. I watch these players with super PC's and they chew me up easily even though I watch them make dumb mistakes just like me. Duelling proves little.
Skill > Spec
What's really interesting is that someone might be able to play MM and do 1000+ dps and only do 800 dps in BM. Each spec lets the player specialize to their play skills. A BM player might reverse that and be unable to do proper damage as MM.
All specs should be welcome in ANY area of endgame as long as the player has the skill and the toon has the gear to deal with the area.
Someone PLEASE bury the spec war, it's silly and stupid during endgame. Be what you can play.
Levelling is a totally different argument...
Utarius wrote:
Actually, there was a sort of 'crowning' of the best PvP player in the world. An NE alliance hunter on (back then) Talnivarr came at first place. He's transferred to Stormscale now.
US or EU Stormscale, and what's his name?
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