rp. read what i said. shadow dest locks use IMMOLATE. they should only use corruption if there's no fire mage. (which is the situation i raid in, so i'll always say it). also though the theorycraft may not point towards it being worthwhile, theorycrafting doesn't take into account movement, boss aoes, moments when you can't nuke. in REALITY having a dot up is worthwhile, just 99% of all wow players are sheeps. they follow the crowd and don't think for themselves.
also 50% ISB uptime isn't unrealistic. it's actually low. average ISB uptime for a standard raid (up to 3 locks) is 60%, but for simplicity sake i choose 50%, just like for simplicity sake i didn't put CoD into the equation even though a shadow dest benefits more from it.
also how the F.uck do you think your maths are right? incinerate isn't better at almost all levels, heck where the f.uck did you get the "923" base damage? it's
444-514 base + 111-128 from immolate = 598.5 average.
your maths are wrong. plain and simple.
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ISB uptime for two warlocks with 30% crit and a shadow priest should be around 68%, from the ISB uptime sim on EJ. Sunwell gear will probably drop crit a bit and raise haste, but it should still be over 60% uptime (theoretically). It's multiple spriests that knock down the uptime.
Also, while I would have worded it more delicately, your Incinerate damage is way off. Not sure how you got such a high number.
Also, while I would have worded it more delicately, your Incinerate damage is way off. Not sure how you got such a high number.
Wow, you're an idiot. Point by point;
High-end Warlocks don't use Corruption, ever. You lose out on damage compared to what you'd get off just casting Shadow Bolt even before you factor ISB in.
Are you kidding?
Corruption isn't instant cast. The two seconds you spent casting Corruption would have been better spent casting Shadow Bolt. Period. This is INCLUDING the DoT damage. The damage that you get instantly out of Shadow Bolt outclasses the damage you get over twenty seconds using Corruption. This isn't a "Well, if it's like Gruul's then you get the free damage" - no. As an end-game 0/21/40 Warlock, the ONLY situation in which you'd get more damage out of Corruption than Shadow Bolt is if the .5s less on the casting time would allow you to finish the cast whereas Shadow Bolt wouldn't.
As a general rule, you do not use Corruption. Period. It is actively hurting your damage the same way that throwing Conflag hurts your damage (unless you're moving, of course) - the time is better spend doing other things.
Second set of calculations are done with 75% ISB uptime. Incinerate still wins, easily.
Incinerate Rank 2
355 Mana 30 yd range
2.5 sec cast
Deals 444 to 514 Fire damage to your target and an additional 444 Fire damage if the target is affected by an Immolate spell.
Straight off the PTR. They upped the bonus damage.
EDIT: Fixed tags.
Edited, Feb 24th 2008 3:50pm by RPZip
Edited, Feb 24th 2008 4:05pm by RPZip
Jenovaomega wrote:
rp. read what i said. shadow dest locks use IMMOLATE. they should only use corruption if there's no fire mage. (which is the situation i raid in, so i'll always say it)
High-end Warlocks don't use Corruption, ever. You lose out on damage compared to what you'd get off just casting Shadow Bolt even before you factor ISB in.
Quote:
. also though the theorycraft may not point towards it being worthwhile, theorycrafting doesn't take into account movement, boss aoes, moments when you can't nuke. in REALITY having a dot up is worthwhile, just 99% of all wow players are sheeps. they follow the crowd and don't think for themselves.
Are you kidding?
Corruption isn't instant cast. The two seconds you spent casting Corruption would have been better spent casting Shadow Bolt. Period. This is INCLUDING the DoT damage. The damage that you get instantly out of Shadow Bolt outclasses the damage you get over twenty seconds using Corruption. This isn't a "Well, if it's like Gruul's then you get the free damage" - no. As an end-game 0/21/40 Warlock, the ONLY situation in which you'd get more damage out of Corruption than Shadow Bolt is if the .5s less on the casting time would allow you to finish the cast whereas Shadow Bolt wouldn't.
As a general rule, you do not use Corruption. Period. It is actively hurting your damage the same way that throwing Conflag hurts your damage (unless you're moving, of course) - the time is better spend doing other things.
Quote:
also 50% ISB uptime isn't unrealistic. it's actually low. average ISB uptime for a standard raid (up to 3 locks) is 60%, but for simplicity sake i choose 50%, just like for simplicity sake i didn't put CoD into the equation even though a shadow dest benefits more from it.
Second set of calculations are done with 75% ISB uptime. Incinerate still wins, easily.
Quote:
also how the F.uck do you think your maths are right? incinerate isn't better at almost all levels, heck where the f.uck did you get the "923" base damage? it's
444-514 base + 111-128 from immolate = 598.5 average.
444-514 base + 111-128 from immolate = 598.5 average.
Incinerate Rank 2
355 Mana 30 yd range
2.5 sec cast
Deals 444 to 514 Fire damage to your target and an additional 444 Fire damage if the target is affected by an Immolate spell.
Straight off the PTR. They upped the bonus damage.
EDIT: Fixed tags.
Edited, Feb 24th 2008 3:50pm by RPZip
Edited, Feb 24th 2008 4:05pm by RPZip
#30REDACTED,
Posted: Feb 24 2008 at 1:24 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) sounds like ptr is broken (which it definately is for alot of things). +444 additional from immolate? wtf are they thinking with such a massive change, also i hadn't seen this change documented anywhere yet and currently I can't get onto ptr (like most people... bloody copy queue, still waiting to get on)
Jenovaomega wrote:
sounds like ptr is broken (which it definately is for alot of things). +444 additional from immolate? wtf are they thinking with such a massive change, also i hadn't seen this change documented anywhere yet and currently I can't get onto ptr (like most people... bloody copy queue, still waiting to get on)
Whether or not it's justified or not is a different question, but it's currently active. *shrug* WoWDB also has the new version.
Quote:
so, they're almost identical, but corruption does still increase dps. at about the 1600+dmg, 30% crit mark, SB beats corruption for raw dps
See: 4/8 T6. I did say I was calculating for high-end.
Quote:
so from that point it's 'arguable' to stop casting it. the issue though is that if you're forced to move around due to boss abilities for over 2.5 seconds (which is true for just about every boss ability which forces movement), it would of been beneficial to have corruption up on the target regardless of your damage, and there are very few bosses where you don;'t have to move at some point or another, leaving that even if it means you only cast the dots before the boss timer comes up for said ability, it's still worthwhile casting them. though casting them on a regular interval is more beneficial as it allows for more liberal lifetapping, potting and bandaging.
You're missing the point completely. It doesn't matter if you have to move after deal less damage by keeping Corruption up. There's some fundamental disconnect here, so I'll spell it out in the plainest possible terms.
End-game Warlocks. Deal. Less. Damage. Casting. Corruption. Than. Shadow. Bolt.
It doesn't matter if you have to move. It doesn't matter if the boss has fifteen second stuns and Corruption will tick through the duration. You still deal less damage by using the Corruption over a SB, before factoring in keeping up ISB is even added in.
This is not a theory. This is the numbers. Run them again.
Quote:
also, i was reading through some of your other maths. sorry but do you just blindly grab at dot coefficients? immolate having a 0.25 on the direct damage and 0.6 on dot? it's 0.2 on direct damage and 0.65 to dot (yeah i know. makes no difference but i enjoy being picky, especially when you use those for the fire lock and only 0.2 and 0.6 for the shadow).
Hint: Imp. Immolate increases the direct-damage coefficient by... 25%. .2 -> .25. The missing number in .65 is a mistake, but it's just an extra number thrown in - I didn't use it for the math, it's a typo.
EDIT:
Quote:
just to finish off though. MY maths are correct, presuming that the change to incinerate of the +444 from immolate doesn't stick (which i must add again, i've never seen on any patch notes or any other forums but here). but if the change is true, then yes. fire locks will become a viable choice, and so will be what i'll spec for.
You're crediting Shadow Warlocks with 15% more fire damage than they'd have for Immolate (see: Succubi vs. Imp Sac), amongst other problems.
Edited, Feb 24th 2008 7:34pm by RPZip
rpzip. i said, "above 1600 +dmg, 30% crit. corruption generally isn't needed". how does that not equate to the top end of top end raiding? for starters, you commenting about 4/8 T6 etc... well tbh, there's like 1-2% of all raiding warlocks who actually get to collect that gear.. so yeah. for 98-99% of all warlocks, if they're dest spec corruption is still beneficial. you can't just post in a THEORYCRAFTING topic about the top end of top ends when the changes that people are chatting about are available to ALL warlocks. you need to be reasonable with the scenarios otherwise your arguement becomes useless to almost everyone who reads it.
heck, I'd consider myself in probably the top 10% of all warlocks when it comes to level of raiding and gear. i push out like average 1.3+k dps, come between 1 and 4 on damage in raids, but still i'm aiming my theorycrafting at the 'average' player.
but enough about that. for starters improved immolate doesn't increase the coefficient of the direct damage by 0.25. it increases the initial damage by 25%, (always though it said "base damage".. lol, shows what you know when you don't check). so it'd be (327+SD)*1.25.
idd i did about the sac'd imp. oh well. was doing the maths in my head so easy mistake. becomes an 1400 damage difference, which still doesn't make up for the 8k damage difference due to increased raid dps every 27.5 seconds
end result though. if the +444 incinerate change doesn't go through. shadow still > fire. even if it does. as shadow, for 99% of all warlocks corruption is still a dps increase. we've both made stupid errors in our maths, and the end conclusion still hasn't changed
heck, I'd consider myself in probably the top 10% of all warlocks when it comes to level of raiding and gear. i push out like average 1.3+k dps, come between 1 and 4 on damage in raids, but still i'm aiming my theorycrafting at the 'average' player.
but enough about that. for starters improved immolate doesn't increase the coefficient of the direct damage by 0.25. it increases the initial damage by 25%, (always though it said "base damage".. lol, shows what you know when you don't check). so it'd be (327+SD)*1.25.
idd i did about the sac'd imp. oh well. was doing the maths in my head so easy mistake. becomes an 1400 damage difference, which still doesn't make up for the 8k damage difference due to increased raid dps every 27.5 seconds
end result though. if the +444 incinerate change doesn't go through. shadow still > fire. even if it does. as shadow, for 99% of all warlocks corruption is still a dps increase. we've both made stupid errors in our maths, and the end conclusion still hasn't changed
lsfreak wrote:
PriestOfSouls wrote:
Why? This has no affect on Immolate, it stays the same, does it not? Only applies to Incinerate cast time, so why would shadow locks use Immolate when it didn't change?
Immolate cast time stays the same, but it still deals more damage than a base Immolate, which shadow locks are going to be throwing out anyways. It'll even the field a bit, at least.
I'm sorry, again forgive me but, what?
Absolutely nothing is changing with Immolate. Nothing. Not its cast time, not the damage it does, nothing. Emberstorm will change Incinerate, and Incinerate only. So I don't get why you want a shadow lock to include Immolate in a rotation? Appreciate the rate downs though.
Jenovaomega wrote:
but enough about that. for starters improved immolate doesn't increase the coefficient of the direct damage by 0.25. it increases the initial damage by 25%, (always though it said "base damage".. lol, shows what you know when you don't check). so it'd be (327+SD)*1.25.
You really need to exercise some basic thought here. I will demonstrate why I'm right with a simple formula;
(327 + .2 * SD) * 1.25 = 408.7 + .25 * SD... duh?
As to the rest of the post, I'll redo the math without the new Incinerate... later.
idd. wasn't thinking. so now we're onto an agreement, i'm very lazy with checking my maths and you ignore 99% of all players.
Lemme see if I get all this straight. First of all, from a lock starting Kara's persepective, without the crit% required for a Destro Spec, none of this matter, I'm still gonna be a UA lock until I hit 20% crit right?
Then, once I hit 20%+ crit and it becomes viable to switch to Destro, if the change for Incinirate sticks, then Fire Lock is the way to go, if it doesn't Shadow Destro is still king.
Either way, below 1600 +Damage, Corr FTW, after that it's questionable.
Immo on the other hand should always be cast if your Fire, and if your Shadow, only if you have a Fire mage?
Just want to clear things up as I am hoping to start slowly moving into this content, and want to be prepared.
Then, once I hit 20%+ crit and it becomes viable to switch to Destro, if the change for Incinirate sticks, then Fire Lock is the way to go, if it doesn't Shadow Destro is still king.
Either way, below 1600 +Damage, Corr FTW, after that it's questionable.
Immo on the other hand should always be cast if your Fire, and if your Shadow, only if you have a Fire mage?
Just want to clear things up as I am hoping to start slowly moving into this content, and want to be prepared.
yep. also you'll be UA until you can get over 170 hit rating. really isn't worth going dest with anything lower.
EJ has the current incarnation of the fire spec about .5% behind shadow, considering a 75% raid isb uptime and T6 quality gear. If the fake leaked patch notes come true (ISB being warlock-specific, down to 15%) then fire will take a definite lead.
Is it the top dps spec? No. Is it viable? Yes.
Is it the top dps spec? No. Is it viable? Yes.
fire was always 'viable' just meant you weren't in the top 5 dps, instead you were one of the crappy ones who were effectively just 'fillers' in the raid :P
Yeah.. my defenition of viable puts the bar a fair bit higher than that. Viable means "half asleep you can pull top 7, working hard you are top 3." ;)
Assuming that your gear's on par with the rest of your guild. That T6 lock in a kara guild could probably get #1 as 0/0/0.
Edited, Feb 25th 2008 5:24pm by Banatu
Assuming that your gear's on par with the rest of your guild. That T6 lock in a kara guild could probably get #1 as 0/0/0.
Edited, Feb 25th 2008 5:24pm by Banatu
he could probably dot+wand and come top in kara, and ya. the bar is set alot highier for me too, but sadly most players set it alot lower. the number of amazing geared players (primarily rogues) coming in 5-10 spot is just rediculous. so many people need to l2p
Don't get me started on scrub rogues in good gear.. >.< it's not like combo point cycles are difficult or anything.
i find that most don't realise 5point ruptures are worthwhile and better than other ****. and than 1-3 point SnD is more than enough (1point being enough with T4 2set)
But.. I like my envenom spam cycle! It does lots of damage!! I crit for 3k once.
I think for the time being, Im gonna stick with spamming Sbolt. I may never see high end content before Lich King comes out. Then it'll be a race to 80. Then who is actually gonna run BC raids anymore?
My guild just started in Kara and I don't think any of us actually meet the bare mins, but we go anyway. Have downed quite a few bosses so we are happy.
Going for Prince this Saturday.
My guild just started in Kara and I don't think any of us actually meet the bare mins, but we go anyway. Have downed quite a few bosses so we are happy.
Going for Prince this Saturday.
Nothing wrong at all with that. The entire argument is about min-maxing for 25 man content, for kara and the rest of T4 content things are much more flexible.
Hell.. I get 2nd or 3rd in dps on Gruul on my scrub new 70 rogue. It's not just about spec or gear, knowing what to do and how to do it makes up a big part of dealing damage and raiding effectively.
Edited, Feb 27th 2008 12:10am by Banatu
Hell.. I get 2nd or 3rd in dps on Gruul on my scrub new 70 rogue. It's not just about spec or gear, knowing what to do and how to do it makes up a big part of dealing damage and raiding effectively.
Edited, Feb 27th 2008 12:10am by Banatu
Quote:
I'm sorry, again forgive me but, what?
Absolutely nothing is changing with Immolate. Nothing. Not its cast time, not the damage it does, nothing. Emberstorm will change Incinerate, and Incinerate only. So I don't get why you want a shadow lock to include Immolate in a rotation? Appreciate the rate downs though.
Absolutely nothing is changing with Immolate. Nothing. Not its cast time, not the damage it does, nothing. Emberstorm will change Incinerate, and Incinerate only. So I don't get why you want a shadow lock to include Immolate in a rotation? Appreciate the rate downs though.
Nothing is *changing* with Immolate, no. However, Immoalte is still used in a shadow lock's rotation because is does more damage/casttime than Sbolt, and the 8% increased damage from Immolate with 4/5 Emberstorm was not included in at least his initial calculations (haven't gone over more recent ones).
lsfreak wrote:
Quote:
I'm sorry, again forgive me but, what?
Absolutely nothing is changing with Immolate. Nothing. Not its cast time, not the damage it does, nothing. Emberstorm will change Incinerate, and Incinerate only. So I don't get why you want a shadow lock to include Immolate in a rotation? Appreciate the rate downs though.
Absolutely nothing is changing with Immolate. Nothing. Not its cast time, not the damage it does, nothing. Emberstorm will change Incinerate, and Incinerate only. So I don't get why you want a shadow lock to include Immolate in a rotation? Appreciate the rate downs though.
Nothing is *changing* with Immolate, no. However, Immoalte is still used in a shadow lock's rotation because is does more damage/casttime than Sbolt, and the 8% increased damage from Immolate with 4/5 Emberstorm was not included in at least his initial calculations (haven't gone over more recent ones).
I think you need to specify what lvl your talking about. At the T6 lvl, Immolate is not included, it decreases DPS. Even with 5/5 Ember and imp scorch stacked, we've been over this on these forums time and time again.
No we haven't. We've been over how Corruption is a drop in damage, but Immolate is always, ALWAYS worth it, the only exception being no points in Emberstorm and with 4pT6. Immolate scales better than Sbolt, so it will always be worth casing at any decent gear rate (.7527dmg/sec/+dmg versus .7414, assuming untalented curses, scorch, spriest, sacced succy, and an unreachable, sbolt-biased 100% ISB uptime). In fact, Immolate surpasses Sbolt every possible amount of +dmg (the intercept point is negetive, due to superior scaling and higher naked damage, 942 versus 572). Adding in crit evens it out, but still makes Immolate worth casting at any conceivable gear level (especially considering how poor stacking crit is).
For example, lock with 4pT6, VotSW from Vashj, and all the supporting gear (using only +dmg, 1331 shadow and 1226 fire unbuffed, and crit, 29.08%, since they scale exactly the same with respect to hit and haste):
Immolate (4/5 Emberstorm, Imp Scorch, 10%CoE, Misery, self-buffs) - 2310dmg/castsec
Sbolt (100% ISB, 10%CoS, SuccySac, Spriest, self-buffed) - 2222dmg/castsec
And that's with an impossible 100% ISB uptime.
EDIT: For some reason I was thinking crit scaled the same, it doesn't, editing it in now.
EDIT2: Editted in. The gap was closed, but Immolate is still better
Edited, Feb 27th 2008 2:48pm by lsfreak
For example, lock with 4pT6, VotSW from Vashj, and all the supporting gear (using only +dmg, 1331 shadow and 1226 fire unbuffed, and crit, 29.08%, since they scale exactly the same with respect to hit and haste):
Immolate (4/5 Emberstorm, Imp Scorch, 10%CoE, Misery, self-buffs) - 2310dmg/castsec
Sbolt (100% ISB, 10%CoS, SuccySac, Spriest, self-buffed) - 2222dmg/castsec
And that's with an impossible 100% ISB uptime.
EDIT: For some reason I was thinking crit scaled the same, it doesn't, editing it in now.
EDIT2: Editted in. The gap was closed, but Immolate is still better
Edited, Feb 27th 2008 2:48pm by lsfreak
*cough* except the absolute extreme raiding gear (like 99.9999% of warlocks don't have this) corruption is still a dps increase *cough*
bah, nevermind. Not worth argueing over, again.
Here, download the latest version of Leulier's Spreadsheet, plug in YOUR values, yours, the same numbers you just listed, and it uses 50% ISB uptime not 100%, and look at the difference.
with 5/5 Emberstorm, your damage/crit values, only 50% ISB uptime, you lose DPS by casting Immolate.
And thats unbuffed. Play with it, the more damage/crit you get, the wider the gap gets.
Oh, and if you have any haste, at all...well, you get the idea.
Edited, Feb 27th 2008 5:07pm by PriestOfSouls
Here, download the latest version of Leulier's Spreadsheet, plug in YOUR values, yours, the same numbers you just listed, and it uses 50% ISB uptime not 100%, and look at the difference.
with 5/5 Emberstorm, your damage/crit values, only 50% ISB uptime, you lose DPS by casting Immolate.
And thats unbuffed. Play with it, the more damage/crit you get, the wider the gap gets.
Oh, and if you have any haste, at all...well, you get the idea.
Edited, Feb 27th 2008 5:07pm by PriestOfSouls
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