So what do you reckon? Seems like Blizzard is working hard
on making firelocks attractive. I started decking myself in
with firegear, just in case it becomes a valid specc.
What do you guys think, is Blizzard trying to get us out of
heavy Sbolting?
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Unless the patch notes changed over the last 2 days, I haven't seen anything that makes me think "fire lock."
I was seeing Blizz trying to buff fire locks this too....
Emberstorm (Rank 1) Increases the damage done by your Fire spells by 2%, and reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 2%.
Emberstorm (Rank 2) Increases the damage done by your Fire spells by 4%, and reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 4%.
Emberstorm (Rank 3) Increases the damage done by your Fire spells by 6%, and reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 6%.
Emberstorm (Rank 4) Increases the damage done by your Fire spells by 8%, and reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 8%.
Emberstorm (Rank 5) Increases the damage done by your Fire spells by 10%, and reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 10%.
I might just start saving up some spellcloth.....
Emberstorm (Rank 1) Increases the damage done by your Fire spells by 2%, and reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 2%.
Emberstorm (Rank 2) Increases the damage done by your Fire spells by 4%, and reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 4%.
Emberstorm (Rank 3) Increases the damage done by your Fire spells by 6%, and reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 6%.
Emberstorm (Rank 4) Increases the damage done by your Fire spells by 8%, and reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 8%.
Emberstorm (Rank 5) Increases the damage done by your Fire spells by 10%, and reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 10%.
I might just start saving up some spellcloth.....
Given that 90% of the rest of the leaked patch notes have prove to, in fact, be perfectly accurate... I think they're leading into;
* Improved Shadowbolt: Now only works for the Warlock.
* Improved Shadowbolt: Now increases Shadow damage by 3/6/9/12/15%, down from 4/8/10/14/20%
Quote:
* Improved Shadowbolt: Now only works for the Warlock.
* Improved Shadowbolt: Now increases Shadow damage by 3/6/9/12/15%, down from 4/8/10/14/20%
I'm actually rather glad that they're trying to make fire viable, it's a much more enjoyable spec. I just wish that part of that viability wasn't from big shadow nerfs.
well, seeing as most +fire gear is pretty sh*t.. and the +fire can be equalled by other gear if socketed right.. so yeah.. stick with the +dmg gear. basically only difference between shadow and fire dest is the talents and spell rotation. gear is identical.
the big question though is if this change will allow fire to compete against shadow... fire firstly is more mana efficient, so less lifetapping. but due to coefficient differences and ISB + the raid wide bonus of ISB. shadow dest has been THE spec.
with 5/5 emberstorm now. incinerate is a 2.27 sec cast (2.5/1.1=2.2727 reacuring), which roughly means that for every 11 shadowbolts you cast. you get 12 incinerates.
presuming perfect raid debuffs for both specs
CoS/CoE. misery. shadow weaving, imp.scorch. sac'd pet. emberstorm 50% ISB uptime (which is low just to add)
fire gets 1.1*1.05*1.15*1.15*1.1= 1.680
shadow gets 1.1*1.05*1.1*1.15*(50% of 20% = 1.1) = 1.607
coefficients
shadowbolt (3/3.5)+0.2 = 1.057
incinerate (2.5/3.5)+0.2 = 0.914
shadowbolt is 541-603. avg = 572
incinerate is 444-514 + 111-128 = 598.5
presuming 1000+dmg
SB = (572+(1000*1.057))*1.607 = 2617.803 dmg = 1047.12 dps
ic = (598.5+(1000*0.914))*1.680 = 2541 dmg = 1119.38 dps
so. for simplisity sake. no crits
11 shadowbolts = 28795.833
12 incinerates = 30492
= 1696.167 damage difference over this duration (27.5 seconds). so yes, in purely SOLO dps terms. incinerate would be a dps increase...
BUT for raid terms..
presume 1 afliction warlock, 1 shadow priest, 1 shadow dest
all put out 1000 dps for simplicity terms
presuming 50% ISB uptime, so 10% damage increase total.
as incinerate. no ISB. so those 3 shadow classes do 1000dps each over 27.5 seconds
= 82500 damage done by them 3
as shadowbolt
they all go to 1100 dps
= 90750
which is a raid damage difference of 8250. the solo dps increase from the incinerate change does not make up for the loss in raid damage. so short of pushing a good 5% extra raid damage on top of the next dps in your guild, shadow dest will still out perform fire dest.
also another issue with this is that it presumes your guild still uses fire mages. something that you'll find less and less of the highier end raiding you get due to how much arcane outperforms it at that level. so if you take out the imp.scorch debuff, incinerate will roughly equal shadow in solo dps, and be completely lost behind in raid dps.
Edited, Feb 22nd 2008 9:54pm by Jenovaomega
the big question though is if this change will allow fire to compete against shadow... fire firstly is more mana efficient, so less lifetapping. but due to coefficient differences and ISB + the raid wide bonus of ISB. shadow dest has been THE spec.
with 5/5 emberstorm now. incinerate is a 2.27 sec cast (2.5/1.1=2.2727 reacuring), which roughly means that for every 11 shadowbolts you cast. you get 12 incinerates.
presuming perfect raid debuffs for both specs
CoS/CoE. misery. shadow weaving, imp.scorch. sac'd pet. emberstorm 50% ISB uptime (which is low just to add)
fire gets 1.1*1.05*1.15*1.15*1.1= 1.680
shadow gets 1.1*1.05*1.1*1.15*(50% of 20% = 1.1) = 1.607
coefficients
shadowbolt (3/3.5)+0.2 = 1.057
incinerate (2.5/3.5)+0.2 = 0.914
shadowbolt is 541-603. avg = 572
incinerate is 444-514 + 111-128 = 598.5
presuming 1000+dmg
SB = (572+(1000*1.057))*1.607 = 2617.803 dmg = 1047.12 dps
ic = (598.5+(1000*0.914))*1.680 = 2541 dmg = 1119.38 dps
so. for simplisity sake. no crits
11 shadowbolts = 28795.833
12 incinerates = 30492
= 1696.167 damage difference over this duration (27.5 seconds). so yes, in purely SOLO dps terms. incinerate would be a dps increase...
BUT for raid terms..
presume 1 afliction warlock, 1 shadow priest, 1 shadow dest
all put out 1000 dps for simplicity terms
presuming 50% ISB uptime, so 10% damage increase total.
as incinerate. no ISB. so those 3 shadow classes do 1000dps each over 27.5 seconds
= 82500 damage done by them 3
as shadowbolt
they all go to 1100 dps
= 90750
which is a raid damage difference of 8250. the solo dps increase from the incinerate change does not make up for the loss in raid damage. so short of pushing a good 5% extra raid damage on top of the next dps in your guild, shadow dest will still out perform fire dest.
also another issue with this is that it presumes your guild still uses fire mages. something that you'll find less and less of the highier end raiding you get due to how much arcane outperforms it at that level. so if you take out the imp.scorch debuff, incinerate will roughly equal shadow in solo dps, and be completely lost behind in raid dps.
Edited, Feb 22nd 2008 9:54pm by Jenovaomega
Jenovaomega wrote:
well, seeing as most +fire gear is pretty sh*t.. and the +fire can be equalled by other gear if socketed right.. so yeah.. stick with the +dmg gear. basically only difference between shadow and fire dest is the talents and spell rotation. gear is identical.
which is a raid damage difference of 8250. the solo dps increase from the incinerate change does not make up for the loss in raid damage. so short of pushing a good 5% extra raid damage on top of the next dps in your guild, shadow dest will still out perform fire dest.
also another issue with this is that it presumes your guild still uses fire mages. something that you'll find less and less of the highier end raiding you get due to how much arcane outperforms it at that level. so if you take out the imp.scorch debuff, incinerate will roughly equal shadow in solo dps, and be completely lost behind in raid dps.
Edited, Feb 22nd 2008 9:54pm by Jenovaomega
which is a raid damage difference of 8250. the solo dps increase from the incinerate change does not make up for the loss in raid damage. so short of pushing a good 5% extra raid damage on top of the next dps in your guild, shadow dest will still out perform fire dest.
also another issue with this is that it presumes your guild still uses fire mages. something that you'll find less and less of the highier end raiding you get due to how much arcane outperforms it at that level. so if you take out the imp.scorch debuff, incinerate will roughly equal shadow in solo dps, and be completely lost behind in raid dps.
Edited, Feb 22nd 2008 9:54pm by Jenovaomega
First off, it's a true 10% reduction in cast time, not the 10% haste that you normally see (as in; cast time = .9 * Old Cast Time, not cast time = Old Cast Time / 1.1). This means it's actually 2.25. The difference isn't huge, but it's there and it's worth mentioning.
Secondly, how does it perform at higher +DMG levels? I'll trust the math to you on this one, but I know my Warlock CL runs at around 1400 +DMG with his current gearset (admittedly he's got nearly everything he wants out of BT/Hyjal, but still).
Third, how would the difference in Immolate damage play out? You do get free damage there, I believe, and I'm not sure how it'd work. Immolate was still worth using as Shadow Destro (albeit not by a ton), but I'd imagine it's considerably more so with Emberstorm and the Incinerate bonus damage.
Fourth;
Quote:
also another issue with this is that it presumes your guild still uses fire mages. something that you'll find less and less of the highier end raiding you get due to how much arcane outperforms it at that level. so if you take out the imp.scorch debuff, incinerate will roughly equal shadow in solo dps, and be completely lost behind in raid dps.
You're kidding, right? Arcane is awful past T5 (2-piece) and has been since the MSD change. You don't see them at all in BT, really.
Edited, Feb 22nd 2008 11:34pm by RPZip
Did the math myself because I got curious. This math is intended to be for high-end Warlocks (BT+), so I'm going to use 1400 SD as my value. (In theory it'd be even higher when factoring in flasks, Imp. Spirit and averaging out trinkets, but meh.)
1) Immolate
Immolate lasts for fifteen seconds. Incinerate gains 444 damage when Immolate is active, which works out to ~200 DPS, which in addition to all of the other benefits Immolate brings would lead to making it 'worth it'. Without factoring Spell Haste into this, if you Immolate you get six casts of Incinerate off before you have to Immolate again. After the sixth cast you'll have ~1.45s before Immolate wears off, which means you get an almost perfect Immolate/Incinerate rotation going. How this interacts with spell haste is something I'll take another time.
2) Direct Comparison
Using the good old Buff Roundup...
Fire: CoE, Misery, Imp. Scorch, Emberstorm, Demonic Sac = 1.68
Shadow: CoS, Misery, Shadow Weaving, 50% ISB (which is not THAT high unless you have a good deal of Warlocks), Demonic Sac = 1.61
Incinerate should operate on a fifteen second cycle; Immolate, Incinerate x 6, repeat. Shadow Bolt should operate on a two point five second cycle. =p
Immolate: 409 + .85 * 1400 = 1599
Incinerate: 923 + .91 * 1400 = 2197 * 6 = 13182
Total: 1599 + 13182 * 4 (Four cycles/minute) * 1.68 = 99328 Damage/Minute
Shadow Bolt: 572 + 1.06 * 1400 = 2056
Total: 2056 * 24 * 1.61 = 79443 Damage/Minute
That's, uh... quite a difference. So maybe I was a bit too harsh on ISB; let's go hog-wild and assume a 100% uptime, which bumps the overall SB coefficient up to 1.75.
Total: 2056 * 24 * 1.75 = 86352 Damage/Minute
Short version: Shadow Destro is in a great deal trouble. Synergy with Shadow Priests aside, the Fire Destro lock is clearly doing a great deal more damage than the Shadow Destro lock. The one real x-factor is the benefits (or rather, interference) of Haste with this rotation... but at the very least this looks exceptionally promising.
1) Immolate
Immolate lasts for fifteen seconds. Incinerate gains 444 damage when Immolate is active, which works out to ~200 DPS, which in addition to all of the other benefits Immolate brings would lead to making it 'worth it'. Without factoring Spell Haste into this, if you Immolate you get six casts of Incinerate off before you have to Immolate again. After the sixth cast you'll have ~1.45s before Immolate wears off, which means you get an almost perfect Immolate/Incinerate rotation going. How this interacts with spell haste is something I'll take another time.
2) Direct Comparison
Using the good old Buff Roundup...
Fire: CoE, Misery, Imp. Scorch, Emberstorm, Demonic Sac = 1.68
Shadow: CoS, Misery, Shadow Weaving, 50% ISB (which is not THAT high unless you have a good deal of Warlocks), Demonic Sac = 1.61
Incinerate should operate on a fifteen second cycle; Immolate, Incinerate x 6, repeat. Shadow Bolt should operate on a two point five second cycle. =p
Immolate: 409 + .85 * 1400 = 1599
Incinerate: 923 + .91 * 1400 = 2197 * 6 = 13182
Total: 1599 + 13182 * 4 (Four cycles/minute) * 1.68 = 99328 Damage/Minute
Shadow Bolt: 572 + 1.06 * 1400 = 2056
Total: 2056 * 24 * 1.61 = 79443 Damage/Minute
That's, uh... quite a difference. So maybe I was a bit too harsh on ISB; let's go hog-wild and assume a 100% uptime, which bumps the overall SB coefficient up to 1.75.
Total: 2056 * 24 * 1.75 = 86352 Damage/Minute
Short version: Shadow Destro is in a great deal trouble. Synergy with Shadow Priests aside, the Fire Destro lock is clearly doing a great deal more damage than the Shadow Destro lock. The one real x-factor is the benefits (or rather, interference) of Haste with this rotation... but at the very least this looks exceptionally promising.
At the very least, shadow locks are going to be throwing Immolate in there as well, probably with 4/5 Emberstorm (if they're taking Cataclysm and 2/3 Soul Leech). You didn't include Improved Immolate in the fire spec, which would probably be taken (over ISB).
I know you frequent EJ, someone over there has a list of graphs... lets see if I can find them... http://elitistjerks.com/651407-post1541.html With everything but lots of haste, no crit, Sbolt is still ahead by his sims. Note that the first graphs use the OLD Emberstorm data, and the last ones the new version.
I know you frequent EJ, someone over there has a list of graphs... lets see if I can find them... http://elitistjerks.com/651407-post1541.html With everything but lots of haste, no crit, Sbolt is still ahead by his sims. Note that the first graphs use the OLD Emberstorm data, and the last ones the new version.
lsfreak wrote:
At the very least, shadow locks are going to be throwing Immolate in there as well, probably with 4/5 Emberstorm (if they're taking Cataclysm and 2/3 Soul Leech). You didn't include Improved Immolate in the fire spec, which would probably be taken (over ISB).
I know you frequent EJ, someone over there has a list of graphs... lets see if I can find them... http://elitistjerks.com/651407-post1541.html With everything but lots of haste, no crit, Sbolt is still ahead by his sims. Note that the first graphs use the OLD Emberstorm data, and the last ones the new version.
I know you frequent EJ, someone over there has a list of graphs... lets see if I can find them... http://elitistjerks.com/651407-post1541.html With everything but lots of haste, no crit, Sbolt is still ahead by his sims. Note that the first graphs use the OLD Emberstorm data, and the last ones the new version.
Well, I actually did include Imp. Immolate, I just didn't mention it (ratcheted up the base damage of Immolate). I did forgot to factor it into the SD, though. It's another 5% bonus SD that Immolate gets... meh, I'll redo the math in a bit.
I'll redo the math with SB using Immolate as well. Hmm. Let me see.
EDIT: I also neglected to factor crits in for Immolate. Oops.
Anyway, check the EJ link for more math.
Edited, Feb 23rd 2008 12:50am by RPZip
Quote:
At the very least, shadow locks are going to be throwing Immolate in there as well, probably with 4/5 Emberstorm (if they're taking Cataclysm and 2/3 Soul Leech).
Why? This has no affect on Immolate, it stays the same, does it not? Only applies to Incinerate cast time, so why would shadow locks use Immolate when it didn't change?
Quote:
* Improved Shadowbolt: Now only works for the Warlock.
I wouldn't factor in OTHER locks ISB's into your ISB uptime, since it appears that ISB is going to be yours and yours alone.
AFAIK fire was considered weak before...if shadow got nerfed behind that of fire, that does mean a lot of hurt for shadow.
PriestOfSouls wrote:
Why? This has no affect on Immolate, it stays the same, does it not? Only applies to Incinerate cast time, so why would shadow locks use Immolate when it didn't change?
Immolate cast time stays the same, but it still deals more damage than a base Immolate, which shadow locks are going to be throwing out anyways. It'll even the field a bit, at least.
Just a thought - wouldn't a firelock also have a firestone equipped for an additional 30 points of damage? Or is that already included in the calculations of +spell damage? 30 points is better than the best +spell damage (25) I could find for a wand, do perhaps the calculations should only be an additional 5 points, since the wand would need to be unequipped.
oh well wands give +crit, +hit and stats, whereas the hit-rating might not matter in end-game anymore, the crit will.
/hijack
If the Life Tap nerf will hit the servers as it is on the testrealms right now Incinerate might even become more interesting due to it´s slight lesser manacost, havent´s done the DPM/DPC math, though...
/hijack
If the Life Tap nerf will hit the servers as it is on the testrealms right now Incinerate might even become more interesting due to it´s slight lesser manacost, havent´s done the DPM/DPC math, though...
Most of us have wands that are better than straight up +30 damage (BT wands, wand off Solarian
@ RPZip, your calculations don't include the dot damage of Immolate, which would tip the scales even further in favor of fire. 0/21/40, shadow vs. fire, 30% crit
Immolate hit = (327+1400*.2)*1.15*1.15*1.1*1.1*1.05*1.25 = 1275 damage, 2550 crit
Immolate dot = (615+1400*.65)*1.15*1.15*1.1*1.1*1.05 = 2562 damage
Immolate total = 1275*1.3 + 2562 = 4220 damage, 281 dps
Incinerate = (598.5 + .914*1400)*1.15*1.15*1.1*1.1*1.05 = 3158, 6316 crit
Incinerate average = 4105
Immo, Inc x6 cycle = 4220 + 4105*6 = 28850 damage, 115,400 damage/minute before latency
I'm excited that they're making fire viable. I'm just pissed off that they're doing it by nerfing shadow. =\
@ RPZip, your calculations don't include the dot damage of Immolate, which would tip the scales even further in favor of fire. 0/21/40, shadow vs. fire, 30% crit
Immolate hit = (327+1400*.2)*1.15*1.15*1.1*1.1*1.05*1.25 = 1275 damage, 2550 crit
Immolate dot = (615+1400*.65)*1.15*1.15*1.1*1.1*1.05 = 2562 damage
Immolate total = 1275*1.3 + 2562 = 4220 damage, 281 dps
Incinerate = (598.5 + .914*1400)*1.15*1.15*1.1*1.1*1.05 = 3158, 6316 crit
Incinerate average = 4105
Immo, Inc x6 cycle = 4220 + 4105*6 = 28850 damage, 115,400 damage/minute before latency
I'm excited that they're making fire viable. I'm just pissed off that they're doing it by nerfing shadow. =\
can't wait to see how this plays out when 2.4 goes live. Just wondering if the lifetap nerf will totally ***** over destruction and make affliction seem almost viable. yea j/k on that affliction sucks
Banatu wrote:
@ RPZip, your calculations don't include the dot damage of Immolate, which would tip the scales even further in favor of fire. 0/21/40, shadow vs. fire, 30% crit
Yeah, I should sleep more before I try to do math. I unintentionally cut out the Immolate DoT damage and forgot to factor in the crit. Either way, at first glance Fire Locks appear to be performing significantly better at higher gear levels.
They haven't directly nerfed Shadow (yet, anyway). That's speculation based on the patch notes, but it seems... at least 'quite likely'. Overall Warlock DPS is likely to go up with the Fire changes, though, so the funeral ceremony might be brief.
I skipped the end of this topic after your 'maths' rpzip. but you're off quite a bit. for starters you presumed a shadow dest doesn't use dots (when infact they should use immolate if a fire mage is in the raid. corruption otherwise) and the difference from curse of doom due to shadow getting increased damage.
here's the dot damage included in the equation:
"immolate. 327 direct base dmg. 615 dot over 15seconds.
0.65 coefficiet to dot
0.2 to direct damage
1.527 debuff/buff multiplier not including emberstorm. 1.680 inc. emberstorm
non-talented. with 1000+dmg
(327+200)+(615+650) = 1792
1792*1.527 = 2736.384dmg
inc. emberstorm
1792*1.680 = 3010.56 dmg
including imp.imm and emberstorm
((327*1.25)+200)+(615+650) = 1873.75 * 1.680 = 3147.9
difference between talented and non-talented (so difference between shadow dest lock using curse+imm+SB rotation and fire dest lock using curse+imm+incinerate) is 411.516. so iver the 27.5 seconds, you can get off 1 full immolate and a second that's short 1 tick..
so yeah. due to being lazy right now, lets presume 2 full immolates. so an extra 823 damage.
well. that still doesn't make up for the 9k difference or so between shadow and fire due to raid dps (and this isn't taking into account if both these locks were using curse of doom, in which case the shadow dest lock will deal a good 1-2k additional damage, which actually would make up for alot of the damage difference between shadow and fire over an entire minute (it'd be about 1k short at the end).
so yeah. sorry to say this guys, but fire still isn't viable :P"
this is just a straight copy from my post on the O-forums. also the difference between 2.27 and 2.25 would be almost completely negligable in pve, it'd require almost 100 SBs for there to be an additional incinerate.
so yeah. look at my maths. they're correct and completely unquestionable. shadow is still better than fire.
here's the dot damage included in the equation:
"immolate. 327 direct base dmg. 615 dot over 15seconds.
0.65 coefficiet to dot
0.2 to direct damage
1.527 debuff/buff multiplier not including emberstorm. 1.680 inc. emberstorm
non-talented. with 1000+dmg
(327+200)+(615+650) = 1792
1792*1.527 = 2736.384dmg
inc. emberstorm
1792*1.680 = 3010.56 dmg
including imp.imm and emberstorm
((327*1.25)+200)+(615+650) = 1873.75 * 1.680 = 3147.9
difference between talented and non-talented (so difference between shadow dest lock using curse+imm+SB rotation and fire dest lock using curse+imm+incinerate) is 411.516. so iver the 27.5 seconds, you can get off 1 full immolate and a second that's short 1 tick..
so yeah. due to being lazy right now, lets presume 2 full immolates. so an extra 823 damage.
well. that still doesn't make up for the 9k difference or so between shadow and fire due to raid dps (and this isn't taking into account if both these locks were using curse of doom, in which case the shadow dest lock will deal a good 1-2k additional damage, which actually would make up for alot of the damage difference between shadow and fire over an entire minute (it'd be about 1k short at the end).
so yeah. sorry to say this guys, but fire still isn't viable :P"
this is just a straight copy from my post on the O-forums. also the difference between 2.27 and 2.25 would be almost completely negligable in pve, it'd require almost 100 SBs for there to be an additional incinerate.
so yeah. look at my maths. they're correct and completely unquestionable. shadow is still better than fire.
...why are you using 1000 +damage for calculations? That's like.. kara gear, when you wouldn't be raid destruction anyways. Try 1400-1600, which is what most destruction locks raid buff up to.
Quote:
I skipped the end of this topic after your 'maths' rpzip. but you're off quite a bit. for starters you presumed a shadow dest doesn't use dots (when infact they should use immolate if a fire mage is in the raid. corruption otherwise) and the difference from curse of doom due to shadow getting increased damage.
If you often bring 4+ Warlocks to raids, I can see why you'd assume ISB has such a high uptime. Nevertheless... let's go through your arguments point by point!
I assumed end-game Warlocks don't use Corruption because they... don't. I'm going to assume a relatively modest 30% crit (remember it's raid buffed - Totem of Wrath/Crit Chicken/JotC all apply) and 4/8 T6, because that is what we're discussing!
Corruption is 900 + .936 * SD / 2 = 450 + .468 SD.
Shadow Bolt is (572 + 1.057 * SD) * 1.34 * 1.06 / 2.5, or 303 + .560 * SD.
| Math Note: / 2 and / 2.5 are casting times, 30% Crit with Chaotic Skyfire Diamond is equivalent to 33.9% Crit for damage calculations |
Even before factoring in keeping up ISB, at ~1100 +DMG you deal equal damage between casting Corruption and casting Shadow Bolt. It's at best a non-factor, and at worst actively detrimental; it causes more threat and you're much more likely to get pushback from any raid damage you might be taking when you use it.
Moving on to part two, namely Immolate. Using the same numbers now for Shadow Bolt (303 + .560 * SD), is it worth using as Shadow Destro?
I'm going to assume 100% uptime for ISB for this test, because logically if ISB isn't up you should probably be trying to get it up rather than throwing Immolate. Nonetheless...
Shadow Warlocks will have 4/5 Emberstorm (8%), Imp. Scorch (15%), CoE (10%), Misery (5%) for Fire Damage boosts... or a total of 1.43. (You included a Sac'd Imp for your Immolate damage bonus as a Shadow Destro Lock). For Shadow Bolt they will have Imp. SB (20%), Shadow Weaving (10%), CoS (10%), Misery (5%), T6 4/5 (6%) and a Sac'd Succubi (15%), or a total of 1.86.
Immolate is ((327 + .2 * SD) * 1.34 + 615 + .65 * SD) * 1.43, or 1506 + 1.31 * SD / 1.5 = 1004 + .873 * SD.
Shadow Bolt is (303 + .560 * SD) * 1.86 = 564 + 1.042 * SD.
The TLDR answer being, "yes, it's worth using Immolate... unlike Corruption".
I'm going to put Immolate aside for a moment, though, and focus purely on Incinerate and Shadow Bolt. Both Incinerate and Shadow Bolt receive Misery, Curse of Thingy, Shadow Weaving/Emberstorm, the T6 bonus and Demonic Sacrifice... so you can leave them out of the % calculations. Pass one of the math is going to assume a 100% ISB uptime, which means that Shadow Bolt gets a 20% boost and Incinerate gets a 15% boost. (Besides aesthetic factors, this makes adjusting the ISB uptime later much simpler).
Incinerate is (923 + .914 * SD) * 1.15, or 1061.4 + 1.051 * SD / 2.25 = 471.73 + .467 * SD.
Shadow Bolt is (572 + 1.057 * SD) * 1.20, or 686 + 1.268 * SD / 2.5 = 304.8 + .507 * SD.
The point at which, with 100% ISB uptime, SB will outdamage Incinerate is 4172 +Damage. Which might be described as... uh, 'unrealistic'.
So, the full damage calculation; I'm ignoring time that might be used to refresh Curses, since that effects both specs more or less equally and may not need to be done at all given their duration. Both Warlocks will cast Immolate when it has expired, and I'm using a reasonable-but-high 75% ISB uptime. Both Warlocks will have 1400 +DMG and a 30% Crit Rate (33.9% for our purposes with Chaotic Skyfire).
Incinerate Warlock operates on a fifteen second cycle. His fire damage is boosted to 1.68 of normal, with Incinerate being 1.78 (all buffs and 4/8 T6).
Immolate:
(408.7 + .25 * 1400) * 1.34 + 615 + .6 * 1400
1016.7 + 615 + 840
2471.7 * 1.68 = 4152.5
Incinerate:
(923 + .914 * 1400) * 1.34
1236.8 + 1714.7 = 2951.5
2951.5 * 1.78 = 5253.7 * 6 = 31522
Total: 4152.5 + 31522 = 35674.5 / 15 = 2378.3 DPS
SB Warlock operates on a sixteen point five second cycle. His shadow damage is boosted to 1.78 of normal (all buffs, 75% ISB uptime and 4/8 T6). His fire damage is boosted to 1.43 of normal (all buffs, but no Demo Sac and 4/5 Emberstorm).
Immolate:
(327 + .2 * 1400) * 1.34 + 615 + .6 * 1400
813.4 + 615 + 840
2268.4 * 1.43 = 3243.8
Shadow Bolt:
(572 + 1.057 * 1400) * 1.34
766.5 + 1479.8 = 2246.3
2246.3 * 1.78 = 5235.7 * 6 = 31522
Total: 3243.8 + 31522 = 34765.8 / 16.5 = 2107 DPS.
The numbers are inflated somewhat because I didn't factor in for either full (1% chance assuming hit cap) or partial resists, plus any number of boss factors that prevent you from standing there spamming spells the entire fight until he falls over. Nevertheless, the numbers are... compelling. Even assuming we cut both numbers by 10%, you're giving up a lot of raid DPS to benefit... well, other people. And not even the raid on the whole.
The numbers get even worse if you bring quite a few Warlocks - keeping that Shadow Priest happy is costing three or four people ~200 DPS even after you deflate the numbers, and that's absolutely a negative return on your investment. You'll get a higher raid DPS out of having all the Warlocks (save the Affliction Utililock, if you even still bring one in T6 - their damage absolutely tanks in BT/Hyjal) switch than you will out of having them stay Shadow Destro. Dumping 10-15% off your DPS to raise the DPS of someone who does 75% of your damage at best is a bad idea... especially since, all things considered, that Affliction Warlock can probably keep up a decent number of ISB procs anyway.
Your Shadow Priests won't be happy, but (at least on the high-end) Fire is clearly the better spec now.
Quote:
so yeah. look at my maths. they're correct and completely unquestionable. shadow is still better than fire.
tl;dr version; no, you're wrong and you @#%^ed up quite a few calculations. Incinerate is better at nearly any gear level according to my napkin math.
Warlocks of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your Shadow Bolt-shaped chains!
Cheers.
EDIT: Well, that's a longer post than I thought it was.
Edited, Feb 24th 2008 3:14am by RPZip
Edited, Feb 24th 2008 6:54am by RPZip
EDIT: Double post bad!
Edited, Feb 24th 2008 2:47am by RPZip
Edited, Feb 24th 2008 2:47am by RPZip
yes I also think blizz wants us to stop rpessing 1 button over and over again. the gear is the same for a fire speck or a shadow spec but atm shadow spec>fire spec, at least on my warlock..
So, if RPZip is right on the math, at what level of gear does destro (shadow or fire) become better than Affliction. And then when does fire become better than shadow, if shadow ever was better.
While I am not good with the math on this i do have some experience, though nowhere near as high as some other people. Me and another warlock friend each have around 1000 damage(i don't raid much on my lock since people need tanks alot more)i am fire destruction and he is affliction. i started to notice a shift in damage around 850 and by that time destruction seemed a bit better. Of course that is for the perfect boss in which noone needs to move or stop casting for any reason. Still not to the point where i can answer the shadow vs. fire question for you but i am sure it will be somewhere around/after t5 if i can follow the math correctly.
SoLLakshmi wrote:
So, if RPZip is right on the math, at what level of gear does destro (shadow or fire) become better than Affliction. And then when does fire become better than shadow, if shadow ever was better.
With my earlier math, at any level above 0 SD and with more than 0% crit Incinerate wins. Remember that with 100% ISB uptime you still needed ~4,000 SD for SB to outdamage Incinerate, and that's not even factoring in the bonus Immolate damage that you see as Fire Destro.
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