Hey everyone, I've spent a bit of time looking (well a lot of time actually) around and reading up on everything warrior related, but figured the best way to get some answers from people who know is to post here.
I am a lvl 61 Human Warrior on the Proudmoore server - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Proudmoore&n=Chosenx
Basically I have 2 problems. First off is deciding what spec I should go for as i level up to 70. I am currently an arms/fury hybrid, but am wondering whether I should go to a fury build as it can be awesome in the later levels of the game. Or should I switch out to prot to learn how to start tanking and getting used to those skills? Or, should I go for an arms/prot spec instead of arms/fury. And how much slower does prot make the leveling process? (60-70 looks like it will take me forever!).
As you can see I am pretty confused at the moment as to what I should do, so any advice in regards to what i should do with my specs would be great (havn't re-specced yet so money for changing isnt an issue).
Secondly, I recently had a go tanking in ramparts and felt VERY lost. I havn't really done a lot of proper tanking to date, because the lower level instances don't really need it.
The targets were being marked with a skull, red cross and a blue square for the most part, and I was told to attack and keep the aggro of the skull. That I could manage easily, but I always thought tanking was meant to be holding a large amount of mobs on me? The other mob would just run off elsewhere and the square one would get iced.
Because I am arms spec it was a bit difficult to keep the aggro on me, but I did manage. However it just didn't seem to be right. So if anyone could explain how the marking process works and how I should be tanking (yes I have read ALL of the info on how to tank, but it is all very much based around lvl 70 prot tanking which isn't where I am at yet).
I want to get the hang of tanking before 70 so I know what I am doing. So I am basically looking for any advice for either of my problems, or both.
Thanks a lot for any advice in advance - let me know if you need any more info.
-Chosen
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Lvl 61 warrior spec + tanking adviceFollow
Quote:
...I've spent a bit of time looking...
No offense, but their is a FAQ in this forum. As well as a recent thread in the most recent 20 posts about how to level your warrior if money was no issue.
Here, I know it'll help;
CLICK THIS!!!
Ok, to address the rest of your post;
Learn to tank, it will get you invited to guilds and raids and instances and get you lovely lovely gear.
Learn what does what, and how much of what stat does what thing you like.
Their are mainly two types of tanks end game;
Mitigation tanks
Avoidance tanks
Many warriors like to stack one or the other, some like to mix it up.
Get both. Some fights are better for avoidance than mitigation, especially 5 man group instances (heroics specifically).
Some moves have set threat values, like sunder, and revenge. Some moves are dependent on gear, like shield slam and devastate.
The highest threat skills are, in no order;
shield slam
revenge
heroic strike
devastate
bloodthirst or mortal strike, if you have tactical mastery, are actually pretty good pre-raid threat, better than anything else if you spec BT or MS...
good threat skills are
sunder (devastate replaces it when you spec for devastate)
thunder clap (AoE threat, enough to keep the mobs off the healers, but not dps)
I suspect you want to be able to grind/quest solo sometimes,
And fury tends to be able to solo well. Compared to prot.
Your GOING to respec once you hit 70. Just don't kid yourself about it. Some talents are much better for grinding to 70 than to actually use at 70.
A balanced spec could look like this;
8/41/3
Just pick up a shield and a decent dps main hand, and pick up a high dps 2h.
tank with the shield, solo/quest with the 2h.
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 5:32am by devioususer
Scholar
32 posts
You'll see responses that recommend arms/fury (with dual wielding) for leveling. This is the easiest way to go.
I went protection as soon as I got to Outlands because I wanted to tank instances. Doing a lot of instances would level me up without questing so I'd get to 70 with tons of quests waiting for me in Blades Edge/Netherstorm/Shadowmoon. I was able to get groups pretty easily, though the quality of PUGs was mixed. Questing as prot isn't bad, just slower than arms/fury.
If you haven't tanked in Azeroth, you should be prepared for some criticism as you learn tanking in Outland. Most dps and healers expect their tanks to handle at least two and probably three mobs at a time. Some PUGs are forgiving if you can't handle four. Good crowd control helps quite a bit.
Note that you don't need to be protection to tank in the lower level outland instances, but it helps.
I also suggest you take a few minutes and review the tanking and gearing guides that are readily available. Some things to keep in mind (in addition to making sure you're in defensive stance):
1. Devastate. If you don't have devastate, then sunder.
2. Thunderclap. It should be improved through talents.
3. Taunt. But only use it when needed.
4. Revenge. Use it whenever you can.
5. Shield slam. Use it whenever you can.
6. Get a good shield. Your puggers will worry a lot if you don't have one (unless you're vastly over-geared/leveled for the instance).
7. Learn to mouse turn. You'll push your arrow/wasd keys to the floor when you're trying to turn towards an attacking mob.
8. Practice alt-tabbing/mouse clicking/mouse-overs to change targets when tanking multiple mobs. Find the approach that works best for you. There are some neat macros out there that you may want to consider.
9. Pick a rotation from the guides and practice. Having a routine for tanking multiple mobs helps a lot and you'll modify it based on your own experience.
10. Learn to love and protect your healer.
11. Practice, practice, practice.
As you have more tanking experiences you'll also pick up the finer points of play that get overlooked by those who never had to tank. Things that you won't like:
1. Priests who shield you as you go into battle.
2. Healers that top you off as soon as you get hit by the first of four mobs.
3. Range dps that gets off that big crit before you've got one devastate/sunder on the mob.
4. Pets that "growl."
5. Players that insist on taking on secondary targets one-on-one.
6. Etc. etc.
If you opt to stick with arms/fury permanently, you should be prepared for some flack when you want to join a PUG as dps. Many people expect their dps to come with added benefits, e.g. crowd control, healing, etc.
Good luck to you!
I went protection as soon as I got to Outlands because I wanted to tank instances. Doing a lot of instances would level me up without questing so I'd get to 70 with tons of quests waiting for me in Blades Edge/Netherstorm/Shadowmoon. I was able to get groups pretty easily, though the quality of PUGs was mixed. Questing as prot isn't bad, just slower than arms/fury.
If you haven't tanked in Azeroth, you should be prepared for some criticism as you learn tanking in Outland. Most dps and healers expect their tanks to handle at least two and probably three mobs at a time. Some PUGs are forgiving if you can't handle four. Good crowd control helps quite a bit.
Note that you don't need to be protection to tank in the lower level outland instances, but it helps.
I also suggest you take a few minutes and review the tanking and gearing guides that are readily available. Some things to keep in mind (in addition to making sure you're in defensive stance):
1. Devastate. If you don't have devastate, then sunder.
2. Thunderclap. It should be improved through talents.
3. Taunt. But only use it when needed.
4. Revenge. Use it whenever you can.
5. Shield slam. Use it whenever you can.
6. Get a good shield. Your puggers will worry a lot if you don't have one (unless you're vastly over-geared/leveled for the instance).
7. Learn to mouse turn. You'll push your arrow/wasd keys to the floor when you're trying to turn towards an attacking mob.
8. Practice alt-tabbing/mouse clicking/mouse-overs to change targets when tanking multiple mobs. Find the approach that works best for you. There are some neat macros out there that you may want to consider.
9. Pick a rotation from the guides and practice. Having a routine for tanking multiple mobs helps a lot and you'll modify it based on your own experience.
10. Learn to love and protect your healer.
11. Practice, practice, practice.
As you have more tanking experiences you'll also pick up the finer points of play that get overlooked by those who never had to tank. Things that you won't like:
1. Priests who shield you as you go into battle.
2. Healers that top you off as soon as you get hit by the first of four mobs.
3. Range dps that gets off that big crit before you've got one devastate/sunder on the mob.
4. Pets that "growl."
5. Players that insist on taking on secondary targets one-on-one.
6. Etc. etc.
If you opt to stick with arms/fury permanently, you should be prepared for some flack when you want to join a PUG as dps. Many people expect their dps to come with added benefits, e.g. crowd control, healing, etc.
Good luck to you!
Scholar
34 posts
First of all Thanks for the quick responses.
@ Devious: I guess I didn't explain what I meant by a bit. I've spent hours reading every little bit about tanking I could find. Including the FAQ post (which is good info) multiple times. The link you gave was a Very interesting read that I didn't see before though.
Stuff that I couldn't find there is what I'm really asking, such as how the various markings work (in my above example am I just meant to attack the skull, or should i also have the other 2 on me? In that case, is it the rest of the groups fault for not waiting for me to have aggro?).
I understand the mechanics and theory well (at least as well as I can without practicing it) but I am looking for stuff that can relate to my situation.
I think I may have been with a pretty bad pug in ramps anyway, as they would attack before I even did at times. But not being sure how the markings work and whether I should be holding all aggro or just the skull (was told just to get skull) makes it confusing.
Also I do intend to end-game tank, not dps, just for the record.
And how viable is it to just do instances to lvl to 70? I have no problem doing that, as long as it won't severely prolong the time it will take to reach 70. I guess time isn't a massive issue to me at the moment though as I am leveling a few alts as well so I don't get burnt out on the long lvling process to 70. So unless it is a massive difference the time to level shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I guess at this point I am thinking of respeccing from arms to either fury or prot, but I would still very much like to hear what other people think.
Thanks again for the great responses so far.
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 9:25am by Chosenx
@ Devious: I guess I didn't explain what I meant by a bit. I've spent hours reading every little bit about tanking I could find. Including the FAQ post (which is good info) multiple times. The link you gave was a Very interesting read that I didn't see before though.
Stuff that I couldn't find there is what I'm really asking, such as how the various markings work (in my above example am I just meant to attack the skull, or should i also have the other 2 on me? In that case, is it the rest of the groups fault for not waiting for me to have aggro?).
I understand the mechanics and theory well (at least as well as I can without practicing it) but I am looking for stuff that can relate to my situation.
I think I may have been with a pretty bad pug in ramps anyway, as they would attack before I even did at times. But not being sure how the markings work and whether I should be holding all aggro or just the skull (was told just to get skull) makes it confusing.
Also I do intend to end-game tank, not dps, just for the record.
And how viable is it to just do instances to lvl to 70? I have no problem doing that, as long as it won't severely prolong the time it will take to reach 70. I guess time isn't a massive issue to me at the moment though as I am leveling a few alts as well so I don't get burnt out on the long lvling process to 70. So unless it is a massive difference the time to level shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I guess at this point I am thinking of respeccing from arms to either fury or prot, but I would still very much like to hear what other people think.
Thanks again for the great responses so far.
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 9:25am by Chosenx
Scholar
32 posts
Marking mobs in instances (and having everybody in your party understand the marks) greatly contributes to a successful run. Others may chime in with their conventions but here's how I tend to mark:
Skull = first kill; everybody focuses on this one first.
X = second kill; noone damages this guy until skull is dead.
Sun/circle = third kill; after skull and X
Moon = sheep; mage crowd control
Blue/square = freeze trap; hunter crowd control
Star/yellow = sap; rogue crowd control
Diamond/purple = seduce; warlock crowd control
Green/triangle = sleep; druid crowd control
There's nothing special about this convention. Just make sure everyone follows it, whatever you use.
Generally speaking it is the tank's responsibility to engage and hold aggro on the skull, X, and Sun (and, perhaps, others that are not cc'ed). The ones marked for crowd control are the responsibility of the respective party member.
You mention people attacking targets before you get aggro....this is one of the major frustrations that a tank runs into. If your group doesn't let you gain aggro first, you are in for a very long instance. Tell people to wait until they see two or three sunders on the target before attacking. If they refuse to listen, leave (I'm serious; when you wipe because of this they'll blame you for your failings as a tank, whereas it's their own fault).
I've been in groups that were "iffy" in terms of level-appropriate people, but when everyone works together and follows the marks and knows their rolls, it's a beautiful thing.
Skull = first kill; everybody focuses on this one first.
X = second kill; noone damages this guy until skull is dead.
Sun/circle = third kill; after skull and X
Moon = sheep; mage crowd control
Blue/square = freeze trap; hunter crowd control
Star/yellow = sap; rogue crowd control
Diamond/purple = seduce; warlock crowd control
Green/triangle = sleep; druid crowd control
There's nothing special about this convention. Just make sure everyone follows it, whatever you use.
Generally speaking it is the tank's responsibility to engage and hold aggro on the skull, X, and Sun (and, perhaps, others that are not cc'ed). The ones marked for crowd control are the responsibility of the respective party member.
You mention people attacking targets before you get aggro....this is one of the major frustrations that a tank runs into. If your group doesn't let you gain aggro first, you are in for a very long instance. Tell people to wait until they see two or three sunders on the target before attacking. If they refuse to listen, leave (I'm serious; when you wipe because of this they'll blame you for your failings as a tank, whereas it's their own fault).
I've been in groups that were "iffy" in terms of level-appropriate people, but when everyone works together and follows the marks and knows their rolls, it's a beautiful thing.
given some of the questions you're asking, you should probably spec prot now and start to really learn tanking. you're going to want some work with shield slam, devastate, last stand, etc. soloing is not that bad since you'll be able to pick up devastate, but give up on using 2H weapons forever. here is one possibility for you at 61:
8/0/44
if you're really having trouble, move a couple points to improved taunt until you get the hang of it.
also go read this:
Lavina's Threat & Warrior Tanking Guide
i'll try to answer what i think you're asking about instance marking. your job is to have more threat on EVERY mob in the pull than anyone else in the party. if you only attack the skull, then when the first heal is thrown to you, the rest of the mobs will make a beeline for the healer because you have no threat on them. the easiest way to get multi-mob threat is with thunder clap (hence the points spent on improved thunder clap). be careful not to break CC, but use TC immediately after the pull and as often as necessary throughout the fight. i would also recommend a "mouseover sunder" macro tied to your middle mouse button as an alternative.
then you just work on your best threat rotation on the skull target until it's dead or almost dead. switch to the next target and repeat. always watch your healer's life bar, or orient so you can see the healer, and use taunt if he/she gets agro.
since you're a miner, have someone make the fel iron stuff for you to replace any pre-outlands gear. i'm not sure about honor hold, but being honored with thrallmar got me a really nice 1h axe for tanking.
8/0/44
if you're really having trouble, move a couple points to improved taunt until you get the hang of it.
also go read this:
Lavina's Threat & Warrior Tanking Guide
i'll try to answer what i think you're asking about instance marking. your job is to have more threat on EVERY mob in the pull than anyone else in the party. if you only attack the skull, then when the first heal is thrown to you, the rest of the mobs will make a beeline for the healer because you have no threat on them. the easiest way to get multi-mob threat is with thunder clap (hence the points spent on improved thunder clap). be careful not to break CC, but use TC immediately after the pull and as often as necessary throughout the fight. i would also recommend a "mouseover sunder" macro tied to your middle mouse button as an alternative.
then you just work on your best threat rotation on the skull target until it's dead or almost dead. switch to the next target and repeat. always watch your healer's life bar, or orient so you can see the healer, and use taunt if he/she gets agro.
since you're a miner, have someone make the fel iron stuff for you to replace any pre-outlands gear. i'm not sure about honor hold, but being honored with thrallmar got me a really nice 1h axe for tanking.
Scholar
34 posts
Thankyou for the responses they have been very helpful.
I think I might switch out to prot spec, and focus my leveling on instance runs for the majority of it.
Still interested to hear more responses before I make my decision however.
I think I might switch out to prot spec, and focus my leveling on instance runs for the majority of it.
Still interested to hear more responses before I make my decision however.
3 posts
In response to Marklartank's post:
DO NOT get threat on EVERY mob in the pull. As a hunter, nothing is more annoying than when the tank gets lots of aggro on my square, and instead of DPS-ing i have to get aggro off of the tank to trap. You only get aggro on the mobs that are not being CC'ed. Also, make sure you are tanking the mobs away from the trap/sheep so you don't break them with a Thunderclap.
Also, i ave a warrior alt and prot leveling isn't nearly as bad as people say. I have less time spent eating/bandaging because i take less damage and you just kill mobs a bit slower.
Edited, Feb 22nd 2008 2:30pm by ArooisGreat
DO NOT get threat on EVERY mob in the pull. As a hunter, nothing is more annoying than when the tank gets lots of aggro on my square, and instead of DPS-ing i have to get aggro off of the tank to trap. You only get aggro on the mobs that are not being CC'ed. Also, make sure you are tanking the mobs away from the trap/sheep so you don't break them with a Thunderclap.
Also, i ave a warrior alt and prot leveling isn't nearly as bad as people say. I have less time spent eating/bandaging because i take less damage and you just kill mobs a bit slower.
Edited, Feb 22nd 2008 2:30pm by ArooisGreat
Scholar
34 posts
I am thinking after some deliberation and a lot of consultation with more experienced players that I will switch out to prot spec. Any help with the sort of build that I should be looking at here would be greatly appreciated - looking something I can tank instances well with as my main priority, but any builds would be great.
for an example build, see the 8/0/44 build i posted a couple of posts back as a starting point. you can play with it a bit, but there are a few that i consider important.
Improved Thunder Clap
Devastate (duh)
Shield Slam
Focused Rage
Improved Sunder Armor
Last Stand
Defiance
Improved Shield Block
regarding the hunter's comments, i guess i could have been a little more clear. your job is to out-threat the HEALER on every mob, since healing generates threat on all the mobs around you. however, i've never seen the particular problem that he's talking about. good hunters will pull their target off early; even if they catch a thunder clap before they are trapped, one shot should keep the target coming. i can't imagine how you'd get so much threat on a secondary target that they'd have to fight to pull them away.
of course, you must be careful with TC around sheep, sap, etc, but that's a general rule for everyone in the party. again, with good players it won't be an issue too often because good players won't CC in the middle of where you're fighting. if they do, either move the fight or start using your mouseover-sunder macro.
something to keep in mind as you get going - if your healer is dying before you do, it's probably your fault (not always, but usually).
Improved Thunder Clap
Devastate (duh)
Shield Slam
Focused Rage
Improved Sunder Armor
Last Stand
Defiance
Improved Shield Block
regarding the hunter's comments, i guess i could have been a little more clear. your job is to out-threat the HEALER on every mob, since healing generates threat on all the mobs around you. however, i've never seen the particular problem that he's talking about. good hunters will pull their target off early; even if they catch a thunder clap before they are trapped, one shot should keep the target coming. i can't imagine how you'd get so much threat on a secondary target that they'd have to fight to pull them away.
of course, you must be careful with TC around sheep, sap, etc, but that's a general rule for everyone in the party. again, with good players it won't be an issue too often because good players won't CC in the middle of where you're fighting. if they do, either move the fight or start using your mouseover-sunder macro.
something to keep in mind as you get going - if your healer is dying before you do, it's probably your fault (not always, but usually).
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