To the Mathwizards here:Follow

Disclaimer: I have not included the AP scaling of LB in my equations, as I could not find it when I was doing them*. In my equations, I am assuming that the pet will use the higher focus skill first, and I currently have no data on this, so if I am wrong, my equations will be invalid. This math is using my skills, and isn't official, nor is it close to what the actual calculations would be. My results could be completely off, and in my opinion, in some places, they look like it, but that isn't necessarily true.
*I know that it has been nerfed, but it could still skew the results.

They also don't include Bestial Discipline, because a build with a crit rate to support the WS is going to be a SV/MM build, with Killer Instinct, and Lethal Shots, which can infact include BD, but not with a strong raiding build.

This raises another question from me, a higher attack speed means more crits, so would 5/5 Serpent's Swiftness give more crits than 5/5 Lethal Shots, or 3/3 Killer Instinct?

Question 1:
Ravager
100 Focus
25 Focus every 4 seconds
Gore=25 Focus-Instant
36-61 Damage (50% Chance to Double Damage)=97 Damage Average (194 Damage 50% of the time)
Bite=35 Focus-10 Sec
108-132 Damage=120 Damage Average

Start-100 Focus
Bite Once-65 Focus
Gore Twice-15 Focus
4 Seconds-40 Focus
Gore Once-15 Focus
8 Seconds-40 Focus
Gore Once-15 Focus
12 Seconds-40 Focus
Bite Once-5 Focus
16 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus
20 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus
24 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus
28 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus
32 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus
36 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus
40 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus
44 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus
48 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus
52 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus
56 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus
60 Seconds-30 Focus
Gore Once-5 Focus

That is 2 Bites, and 16 Gores, which turns out to 470 focus. Assuming the 50% chance to double the damage on gore happens on every other Gore, that is 8000 damage in total. That number seems very far from what it should be, but I cannot find any other way to do this calculation with my current math knowledge.

Question 2:
Windserpent
100 Focus
25 Focus every 4 seconds
Lighting Breath=50 Focus-Instant
99-113 Damage=106 Damage Average
Bite=35 Focus-10 Sec
108-132 Damage=120 Damage Average

Start-100 Focus
LB Twice-0 Focus
4 Seconds-25 Focus
8 Seconds-50 Focus
LB Once-0 Focus
16 Seconds-50 Focus
LB Once-0 Focus
24 Seconds-50 Focus
LB Once-0 Focus
32 Seconds-50 Focus
LB Once-0 Focus
40 Seconds-50 Focus
LB Once-0 Focus
48 Seconds-50 Focus
LB Once-0 Focus
56 Seconds-50 Focus
LB Once-0 Focus
60 Seconds-25 Focus

That is 9 LBs, which means 9x106=954 Damage, which turns out to 450 focus.

Question 3:
With Synn's advice, I'm using a 0.5 CD on the instant skills, Lightning Breath, and Gore, which means that there will be 120 cast in 1 minute.

60 Seconds of unlimited focus:
Ravager=15x97=1455 + 15x194=2910
Total=4365 Damage

WS=30x106=3180
Total=3180 Damage

The difference between these amounts is 4740 damage.

120 Seconds of unlimited focus:
Ravager=30x97=2910 + 30x194=5820
Total=8730 Damage

WS=60x106=25440
Total=6360 Damage

The difference between the total amounts from 60 seconds vs 120 seconds is double, which means that they remained the same.

Question 4:
From my consensus on Question 3, it appears that a WS cannot out damage a Ravager.

Question 5:
To get the amount of focus needed to receive the damage output of the WS in Question 3:
You are doing 30 LBs a minute, with unlimited focus, so that is 1500 focus (30x50). In one minute, you are gaining 375 focus from regeneration: 60/4x25. That leaves you with 1125 focus to gain from GftT supported by crits. 1125/50 is the amount of focus you need divided by the amount you gain from GftT, leaving you with the amount of crits you need per minute, which is 22.5, which translates into 1.125 crits every 3 seconds.

To get the same damage out of a Ravager, you would find the focus needed for the same damage. You would need to do 1185 damage less to be comparable to the WS. 1185/145.5 (Average between Gore and double damage gore)=8 Gores less to equal the same amount of damage. You are doing 30 Gores a minute-8=22 Gores. 22 Goresx25 Focus per Gore=550 Focus. Subtracting the 375 from focus regeneration, you have 175 focus to fill from GftT. 175/50=3.5, which translates to 0.18 of a crit every 3 seconds.

Question 6:
Windserpent:
With a 2.35 attack speed, in a 1:1 shot rotation, you are firing 1 auto shot, then 1 special shot (Steady, Arcane, Multi) every 4.7 seconds. 60/4.7x2=Number of shots per minute, which is 25.5. That means that you need to crit on 22 out of every 25 shots, to get that amount of damage out of your WS. That is an 88% crit rate needed to achieve it.

Ravager:
Same as above with the shots. You need to crit 3 times out of every 25 shots, which requires an 8.3% crit rate.

Edited, Feb 20th 2008 6:57pm by Yuppley

you mean focus. =S lol. I have it on my wind serpent just for an extra kick but if it doesn't help I'll just remove it for the bonus resistances.

if you have a friend you can test on with a wind serpent you can find out how long it takes between lightning breaths. (even though it doesn't have a visible GD) I do think it has a specific issue with having like a .5 second delay before the next one... I think.

Yeah there has to be a parameter, I would go with the 0.5 seconds just because that is the hidden timer on our auto-attack so it would be a safe assumption.

Woah... LB has no GCD? That's more than I knew...

Æthien: Now, I know you're SV, so getting capped for this, even with GftT, wouldn't be an option for you. However, I know you're asking because you want a real answer, so here goes.

First off: 3rd question. Easy to answer; it's 'Yes'.

(Question 1)
Assuming you have all the focus boosting talents there are (ie. Bestial Discipline and GftT), you'll have a passive focus regen of 50/4 sec (12.5/sec). Now, if a ravager knows what he's doing he'll be using Bite over Gore when he gets the chance. So, over one minute, he'll use 6 Bites, since it's on a 10 sec CD. He'll be able to use 40 Gore's, but since they're on the GCD (as well as Bite, if I'm not much mistaken), he'll only use 34 Gore's. That's the Maximum he can use, and it equates to 1 060 Focus/Min.

(Question 2)
With WS's it just got trickier... Assuming you've got enough +AP to make LB > Bite (thus eliminating Bite from the calculation), a WS can do 40 LB's if they're on the GCD. 120 if they're on the hidden 0.5 CD. Basically, with GCD, 2 000 FPM, with hidden CD... 6 000 FPM.

Now, if you've got a passive 12.5 focus/sec, you'll land at 750 focus/min. So, you'll need an additional 310 FPM. And of course you have to go be an **** and have a fucked up weapon speed... Oh, well... 6 times in 60 sec you fire 3 shots instead of 2 (unless I completely misunderstood you). You have 25 whole shot rotations in 60 sec with that speed, so it's 6 1:2 rotations and 19 1:1 rotations. That's 56 shots in 60 sec.

So, every crit gives 50 focus, and you get 56 chances to crit in 60 sec. For the extra 310 FPM needed for Ravager to be Focus Capped, you need to crit 7 times (6 is actually closer... but say 7). That's a 12.5% (7 / 56 = 0.125) crit chance needed for Ravagers to be Focus Capped.

Now, for Q5 I can't really answer you... Everytime I try to calculate LB damage I come up with insane numbers that almost can't be correct... To demonstrate:

12.5% of the hunters RAP is converted to +spell damage. So, since we're talking ~13% crit chance up there, let's take a not too well-geared example, like 1.5k RAP? So, +187.5 Spell Dmg.
***** I'm not sure whether to treat this as an instant (42.86% coefficient) or give it the full value... I'll try the coefficient to be on the safe side. *****
[(113 + 99) / 2 + ~80] = 186 Average Damage from LB. So, if LB is on the GCD, a WS with unlimited focus will deal 7 440 dmg over 60 sec. A Ravager will deal 3 219 dmg.
A WS with 1 100 FPM (number required to cap a Ravager) will deal 4 092 dmg.

Now, this makes me once again doubt that my way of calculating LB is incorrect... can anyone confirm that LB hits are at around 186 dmg?


Last and certainly not least... Q4.

I don't know what you're referring to with the "before that happens". Either how much Focus you need to generate before it can be considered "endless" or how much focus you need to generate before a WS out-DPS:es a Ravager. I'll try to answer both.

Now, if LB is on a hidden 0.5 CD, and a WS can perform 120 of these in 60 sec... it's used up 6 000 focus (I feel I'm repeating myself... bear with me). You have 750 passive FPM, and thus need 5250 more. So, you need 105 crits in 60 sec... Good Luck :)

For the other question... WS > Ravager with Endless Focus. WS > Ravager with Ravager being Focus Capped. Basically, with the maths I've brought to the table here (mind you, they may be incorrect) WS > Ravager.



Hope this answers some of your questions.

I want to say that number is right, I'll get on my hunter and check since I have a wind serpent.

Edit: 186 is a nice average, I just fought the deathsworn from regular shadow labs, and Skii's lightning breath was hitting from anywhere between 164 and 196 with the bulk being around 183-190.

Also as far as the GCD. There is a GCD, 1.5 seconds, so rework the numbers with that.

Edit: Just calculated my average, from 12 regular hits of LB on the same mob my average was 183.

Edited, Feb 20th 2008 10:14pm by SynnTastic

My spinal cord hurts. This is very very daunting to even consider all the math behind this and I commend everyone who has a clue what they are talking about. Imma go back to playing...

Apart from very interesting mathematical calculations, can't this be tested quite easily?

I am thinking about it like this: (may be flawed though, assumptions ahead!)

- an AP increase from you linearly (spelling?) increases the damage from all special pet attacks and
- a crit% increase from you linearly increases the focus regained per minute (on long-term average, through the MM talent) and thus linearly the damage output through pet specials.

My proposal is testing the following:

With a set crit % (remove bit of gear or whatever rocks your boat), test the pet dps with a dps meter for both a ravager and a wind serpent.

Then test with some less crit % and with some more crit % and see if the assumed linearity is there. Do the same for AP. See if the Wind Serpent gets closer to the Ravager in dps if crit % and /or AP increases. If linearity holds and the Wind Serpent seems to catch up with the Ravager, you can simply extrapolate to the break-even points. When you get higher in crit % / AP than those break-evens, Wind Serpent is better.

Perhaps crit % will be needed of 100%+, in that case, Ravager > Wind Serpent always.