A short preface...
I am not in any way supporting or opposing the inclusion of high level gear into any aspect of the game. I am by all intents and purposes completely casual. I have actually only participated in 10 arena matches, still not keyed for kara not exalted with any faction and have only ever maxed out one profession...Skinning (LOL!). I am bored in lab and decided to get on and ask a question to hopefully spawn enough discussion to pass the incubation time of my cells...
And now...
Why are the S1 (and as I'm hearing now soon to be S2) that are available for Honor now being called "Welfare Epics"? Is it because we as a community see the color purple as something that should require the planned coordination (and attendance) of at least 5 (thinking about Heroics here) and most often 10-40 (at least back in the day) people to repeatedly run the same scenarios over and over again? Or the planned coordination of 2,3,or 5 in a PvP setting? Perhaps its because we don't think that one should be able to solo and get epics (except the random world drop)?
What are the differences between Raid Epics and Welfare Epics:
Raid Epics require at LEAST 5 people (I realize that heroics arent raids but I use the term raid epics to exclude profession epics and world drops) working together (and in reality usually 10 or 25). Can this not be accomplished in BGs (premades? which are themselves looked down upon sometimes as EZmode)? Of course it wont be common but I don't think there are many common raiding guilds that are good either.
Raid Epics require consistent attendance. Well, I've never heard of anyone getting Welfares without "attending" the BGs.
Raid Epics require you too actually kill stuff. Yea I know folk who just come to AV and "bot up" and still end the day with 2-4k honor if they farm for a few (3-5) hours and I've heard of people grinding honor and ending a holiday weekend with 15k-25k honor (I must lack fortitude because I cant play that long...DMC4 starts calling me), so I realize that the actual "success" in a BG doesn't preclude the progression towards earning epics. Point for Raid in my book.
What about Arena Epics and Welfares:
Arena Epics require you to attend 10 matches a week. Well we discussed attendance in BGs above.
Arena Epics require you to have coordination between either 2, 3 or 5 people. But do they? Much like BGs welfares u can dance and killed faceraped and still get epics. Well now Blizz has made so that you can't get all the present season's arena epics (weapons, shoulders) unless u are of a certain rating and as such, presumably not dancing and losing. Point for Arena in my book.
Arena Epics require you to kill stuff and not doing so will impede progression towards said epics. Refer to above discussion of group coordination for I believe it's practically identical and I don't want to cut and paste.
Now the finale...
"Welfare" epics seem to be for all intents and purposes, easier to get and require less skill. They are all less useful for PvE than PvE epics and less useful for PvP than arena epics. So is it just the color?
Or something else that sushi nubiri such as myself don't have the intellect (the RL kind) to understand.
Okay 2hr and 15 mins left guys get to it.
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Why are they called Welfare Epics?Follow
Takes nothing but time to get them and you can AFK in BGs to get the HP required.
It also refers to the fact that having them (or access to them) allows people to enter the raiding scene without extensive dungeon runs.
The whole point of welfare so people can better themselves to not rely on it, which is what these epics do for classes, people/guilds need to raid, heres a little jump start for you that need gear to be effective.
It also refers to the fact that having them (or access to them) allows people to enter the raiding scene without extensive dungeon runs.
The whole point of welfare so people can better themselves to not rely on it, which is what these epics do for classes, people/guilds need to raid, heres a little jump start for you that need gear to be effective.
I just went cross-eyed with Devil worship.
They are called welfare epics because they are essentially given away to people who are lazy and skilless.
However, just because you take advantage of the gear doesnt mean you dont deserve it or that you are lazy and skilless. To actively compete in arena at any point now you pretty much need the S1 gear as a baseline. Its just a generalization made by the elites of the game since the gear is relatively good and relatively easy to get. When they hit 70 and wanted to raid/arena they instanced their butts off hoping for a drop, never guaranteed, to progress their toons. It's similar to the whole instance keying debate that is going on. The older raiders had to run through hoops to get where they are and the newer raiders get it handed to them.
I can understand both sides of the argument tbh, but considering my playstyle the casual friendly stuff definitely does suit me.
It's only a name though really.
Edited, Feb 20th 2008 1:21pm by KTurner
However, just because you take advantage of the gear doesnt mean you dont deserve it or that you are lazy and skilless. To actively compete in arena at any point now you pretty much need the S1 gear as a baseline. Its just a generalization made by the elites of the game since the gear is relatively good and relatively easy to get. When they hit 70 and wanted to raid/arena they instanced their butts off hoping for a drop, never guaranteed, to progress their toons. It's similar to the whole instance keying debate that is going on. The older raiders had to run through hoops to get where they are and the newer raiders get it handed to them.
I can understand both sides of the argument tbh, but considering my playstyle the casual friendly stuff definitely does suit me.
It's only a name though really.
Edited, Feb 20th 2008 1:21pm by KTurner
ElementHuman wrote:
Takes nothing but time to get them and you can AFK in BGs to get the HP required.
It also refers to the fact that having them (or access to them) allows people to enter the raiding scene without extensive dungeon runs.
The whole point of welfare so people can better themselves to not rely on it, which is what these epics do for classes, people/guilds need to raid, heres a little jump start for you that need gear to be effective.
It also refers to the fact that having them (or access to them) allows people to enter the raiding scene without extensive dungeon runs.
The whole point of welfare so people can better themselves to not rely on it, which is what these epics do for classes, people/guilds need to raid, heres a little jump start for you that need gear to be effective.
The correlation to welfare is a good one (leaving out the fact that some eventually become dependent on welfare IRL and don't better themselves in the way that ideally one hopes for). It does lessen the time between questing to 70 and actual raiding by bypassing the need for extensive dungeon crawling to get the gear that "welfare" gear is basically equal or in some cases equal to.
Which of course then breeds the issue of the fact that extensive dungeon runs not only provide gear but also help one hone the finer points on high end grouping that will prove essential in the raid environment that people are aiming for.
I am going to hijack my own thread (sounds real stupid when I read that) and go in a different direction:
Should welfare epics from PvP be so viable for PvE at the initial level of raiding (aka Kara, I hesitate to put ZA as I'm told its not really entry level just because its a 10man)?
And perhaps an even better question is...Is there a way around this? With the advent of S4 gear (Brutal I believe?) in the next season, it is reasonable to assume that S2 will be available for HP in the next season? Is that a good thing for entry level raiders who are noobs like myself. While S2 gear won't be as good for raiding as T5, it would be damn good for Kara I would imagine (perhaps ZA as well) if one could gem correctly.
I grant you that every 70 Rogue in all epics on my carebear server probably hasn't done SLabs as many times as I have or SH and probably doesn't have as much of an idea of what their role is in a group as I might (and I'm sure whenever I do start raiding that'll be exposed as very little), but most will probably get into a Kara raid before me just of the basis of their gear. Which now leaves me in a position to have to grind BGs just to be at least superficially as useful...maybe I should AFK while I'm at work...
For rogues full S1/Vindicator's gear is pretty terrible for Kara. It has next to no hit rating on it and despite the high amount of crit it will leave you with spikey damage that falls below the damage of a rogue in dungeon blues with 100 more hit than you.
The 4 specs I can think of that arena gear actually works for in Kara are elemental and enhance shamans and fury warriors for DPS. These specs all rely more on crit than hit to do good DPS. Holy pallies can get some use out of arena gear as well since they are not nearly as dependent on MP5 as other healers.
The 4 specs I can think of that arena gear actually works for in Kara are elemental and enhance shamans and fury warriors for DPS. These specs all rely more on crit than hit to do good DPS. Holy pallies can get some use out of arena gear as well since they are not nearly as dependent on MP5 as other healers.
You're right about the armor, but the weapons are an incredible shortcut and better then pretty much anything in Karazhan... so you've got a very solid start with those two.
why welfare epics?
well lets put it this way..
i go into EotS, and just do enough to not get marked afk (barely trying, maybe just following the herd or defending a tower very poorly... not calling inc's or nothing) and get almost the same amount of reward i would get if i tried my damnedest
compared to "real" raid epics
i go in, i do the same amount of effort as my EotS trick... which equates to staying melee range and only mashing sin strike, nothing else
my dps would look horrid, and any halfway serious guild would tell me get my **** together or im out fo the rotation
- - - - -
the DIFFERENCE is no matter how bad you are, you can get honor epics, or even most arena epics.... just being patient is enough for those
in a raid, or hell even in a heroic.... being ******** 110% lazy gets you nothing, since very few people would deal with your ****
not even getting into the 'simple-ness of pugging AB compared to the Shade of Aran fight' kinda logic of it all
honor grind epics give people rewards they dont deserve, and its making for bad players... and im being 100% serious
i see rogues pvp in full s1 nowadays, and watch them make all kinds of bad moves... like for example
-blinding a target they JUST ruptured
-not using crippling poison, period
-not having shiv on their hotbar, period
-very poor talent builds, and they dont 'make it work'
-AR-ing or Bloodlust Brooching themselves out of stealth
-not using finishers other then eviscerate, period
-not understanding how to play any of the BGs at all
and they get EPICS?! like kara-level EPICS i had to grind a long time for in season 1??
its ********* and its ruining the game, playing like that is fine, but you know what
if you wanna be bad, WTF is wrong with BLUE gear? if you care enough to want those epics so bad, youd figure youd work on the skill a lil... some of these people equate to skill i wouldnt pug a mana-tombs (regular) with at level 70
they dont deserve the items, thats it.... blizzard keeps catering to these people purely cuz they ***** and its ********
i understand theres a big gap from 70 blue to s3 epic, but if your casual, you should realize what your fighting
run your heroics, arena grind on a bad team, and heroic badges are all GOOD ways for 'free' epics
honor grind doesnt deserve it, end of story
well lets put it this way..
i go into EotS, and just do enough to not get marked afk (barely trying, maybe just following the herd or defending a tower very poorly... not calling inc's or nothing) and get almost the same amount of reward i would get if i tried my damnedest
compared to "real" raid epics
i go in, i do the same amount of effort as my EotS trick... which equates to staying melee range and only mashing sin strike, nothing else
my dps would look horrid, and any halfway serious guild would tell me get my **** together or im out fo the rotation
- - - - -
the DIFFERENCE is no matter how bad you are, you can get honor epics, or even most arena epics.... just being patient is enough for those
in a raid, or hell even in a heroic.... being ******** 110% lazy gets you nothing, since very few people would deal with your ****
not even getting into the 'simple-ness of pugging AB compared to the Shade of Aran fight' kinda logic of it all
honor grind epics give people rewards they dont deserve, and its making for bad players... and im being 100% serious
i see rogues pvp in full s1 nowadays, and watch them make all kinds of bad moves... like for example
-blinding a target they JUST ruptured
-not using crippling poison, period
-not having shiv on their hotbar, period
-very poor talent builds, and they dont 'make it work'
-AR-ing or Bloodlust Brooching themselves out of stealth
-not using finishers other then eviscerate, period
-not understanding how to play any of the BGs at all
and they get EPICS?! like kara-level EPICS i had to grind a long time for in season 1??
its ********* and its ruining the game, playing like that is fine, but you know what
if you wanna be bad, WTF is wrong with BLUE gear? if you care enough to want those epics so bad, youd figure youd work on the skill a lil... some of these people equate to skill i wouldnt pug a mana-tombs (regular) with at level 70
they dont deserve the items, thats it.... blizzard keeps catering to these people purely cuz they ***** and its ********
i understand theres a big gap from 70 blue to s3 epic, but if your casual, you should realize what your fighting
run your heroics, arena grind on a bad team, and heroic badges are all GOOD ways for 'free' epics
honor grind doesnt deserve it, end of story
They're called welfare epics because Blizzard is practically giving them away. It doesn't impact upon the status of the receiver at all, because if the government was handing out free couches that are way better than your existing couch, you'd be an idiot to not pick up one of those welfare couches.
Frankly, using it as an insult is a little...well, dumb. It's not like "Oh, you need those welfare epics because you're poor and nub," it's "you need these to even begin competing."
Frankly, using it as an insult is a little...well, dumb. It's not like "Oh, you need those welfare epics because you're poor and nub," it's "you need these to even begin competing."
Scholar
48 posts
I realize I'm probably not qualified to comment on this discussion, as my highest character is currently only 68, but I have a question.
Was there the same amount of outcry when TBC came out and the first quests in Hellfire Peninsula had green rewards as good as or better than some of the pre-TBC raid drops?
I understand that the S1 gear is EPIC, and the color means a lot to people. You know what else is EPIC? http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=1168;source=live Are you angry that people can buy it on the AH?
Chances are, we're going to see people like mongoosexcore saying the same things when WoTLK hits shelves. The gear that all you 1337 players are working your asses off for (and I'm not knocking you here, I'd raid too if I had the time) is going to be replaced. Everything is going to be replaced.
Was there the same amount of outcry when TBC came out and the first quests in Hellfire Peninsula had green rewards as good as or better than some of the pre-TBC raid drops?
I understand that the S1 gear is EPIC, and the color means a lot to people. You know what else is EPIC? http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=1168;source=live Are you angry that people can buy it on the AH?
Chances are, we're going to see people like mongoosexcore saying the same things when WoTLK hits shelves. The gear that all you 1337 players are working your asses off for (and I'm not knocking you here, I'd raid too if I had the time) is going to be replaced. Everything is going to be replaced.
They're called welfare epics because they take no effort to get and only the terribads use them.
With a few exceptions, everyone I see in S1 gear is usually pretty awful.
With a few exceptions, everyone I see in S1 gear is usually pretty awful.
Theophany the Sly wrote:
With a few exceptions, everyone I see in S1 gear is usually pretty awful.
That's why you're still using S1 maces, right? Just to buck the trend?
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Overlord Demea wrote:
Theophany the Sly wrote:
With a few exceptions, everyone I see in S1 gear is usually pretty awful.
That's why you're still using S1 maces, right? Just to buck the trend?
Nope, S3 swords are coming in the next couple weeks, and if you remember, I was mut for most of last season.
Its a little unfair to call the people that get them skilless.
I'll get the S1 swords just because I can do a few BGs a week and have them.
I'm a freshman in H.S and between school itself, extra corricular activities, such as volleyball, cheer leading, choir. Not to mention softball which is coming up pretty soon. I don't have the time to raid dungeons. Does this mean I'm lacking in skill? No. But one could argue the skill I'm lacking here is time management. I'd like to duel you one of these days, just so I can see you with your foot in your mouth.
I'll get the S1 swords just because I can do a few BGs a week and have them.
I'm a freshman in H.S and between school itself, extra corricular activities, such as volleyball, cheer leading, choir. Not to mention softball which is coming up pretty soon. I don't have the time to raid dungeons. Does this mean I'm lacking in skill? No. But one could argue the skill I'm lacking here is time management. I'd like to duel you one of these days, just so I can see you with your foot in your mouth.
Carmeliens wrote:
Its a little unfair to call the people that get them skilless.
I'll get the S1 swords just because I can do a few BGs a week and have them.
I'm a freshman in H.S and between school itself, extra corricular activities, such as volleyball, cheer leading, choir. Not to mention softball which is coming up pretty soon. I don't have the time to raid dungeons. Does this mean I'm lacking in skill? No. But one could argue the skill I'm lacking here is time management. I'd like to duel you one of these days, just so I can see you with your foot in your mouth.
I'll get the S1 swords just because I can do a few BGs a week and have them.
I'm a freshman in H.S and between school itself, extra corricular activities, such as volleyball, cheer leading, choir. Not to mention softball which is coming up pretty soon. I don't have the time to raid dungeons. Does this mean I'm lacking in skill? No. But one could argue the skill I'm lacking here is time management. I'd like to duel you one of these days, just so I can see you with your foot in your mouth.
ROFL, please don't talk to me about time commitments. Everyone here knows I work 40 hour weeks on top of having classes and a social life to deal with.
It's cool that you're bad at this game and like to delude yourself, I understand.
I don't think I was talking to you, Theo. But thank you for the input non the less. As for deluding myself. Point out how I'm circumventing? I'm only pointing out why I can't raid. As for you working 40 hours a week in addition to having classes. Good, pat on the back to you. When I grow up, I'll probably do the same thing. As well as play WoW. For now, I have to roll with whats given me. I'm sure as an adult you have no time constraint put on you when it comes to WoW other then the ones you put on yourself. However I do still have parents.
Edit:I hate the enter key.
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 2:47am by Carmeliens
Edit:I hate the enter key.
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 2:47am by Carmeliens
Message has high abuse count and will not be displayed.
FWIW, I totally agree with Mongoose on the point of badge loot. It's ridiculous that you can get 103 DPS weapons by running a few instances.
And the best part is it's only daggers, too, making them basically only good for PvP.
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 1:40am by Theophany
And the best part is it's only daggers, too, making them basically only good for PvP.
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 1:40am by Theophany
Some don't want to raid to get good gear. Some play this game just because you can do PvP. So now with all this gear you can get exclusively from just PvP, its a nice turn. In all actuality it will probably take us more time to grind the honor then it would to run dungeons for what we want or need. It took me 2 weeks, off and on for little over an hour a day just to get the Veterans Leather Boots. Which probably can be replaced by some first or second boss drops in Kara. Sure I'd like to raid kara. But my guild isn't too good with raiding just yet. And I've been with them for awhile, so I'm not going to leave them just to join a raiding guild.
This like any other game will have people who disagree with the developers, programmers. But honestly. Do you think by posting these rants, Blizzard will just take it all back? Probably not. So its not accomplishing anything. You might think well. Since I can't make Blizz do anything I'll just pee and moan so the people that like to PvP and get the epics will maybe feel bad because I decided to raid for upteen hours a day to get what I have...
We all have choices. Don't berate those that chose to do PvP for their epics.
This like any other game will have people who disagree with the developers, programmers. But honestly. Do you think by posting these rants, Blizzard will just take it all back? Probably not. So its not accomplishing anything. You might think well. Since I can't make Blizz do anything I'll just pee and moan so the people that like to PvP and get the epics will maybe feel bad because I decided to raid for upteen hours a day to get what I have...
We all have choices. Don't berate those that chose to do PvP for their epics.
Theophany the Sly wrote:
FWIW, I totally agree with Mongoose on the point of badge loot. It's ridiculous that you can get 103 DPS weapons by running a few instances.
And the best part is it's only daggers, too, making them basically only good for PvP.
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 1:40am by Theophany
And the best part is it's only daggers, too, making them basically only good for PvP.
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 1:40am by Theophany
I thought they were adding some 103 DPS fist weapons as well.
I do agree that the color of one's gear does not allow you to reasonably assume their skill level as it perhaps once did. When I first started playing and I first ran BRD I ran with a 60 Mage in some epics (dont remember what tier or anything) and I saw him totally pwn everything. He just seemed like he knew so much about his class, the tank's class HELL my class (told me where to stand and everything). So I grew to expect a certain quality of player if I saw him in purplez. That's not to say I didn't meet players in blues or greens who taught me plenty, but I felt I KNEW I had an experienced player if he was full epic.
Now I spent all this time trying to learn my class and grind up LW so I could make Fel Leather gear so I could socket for hit and be geared well for high level dungeons and raids when the time came. And I get passed over now for rogues who are rockin S1 swords (or S2) and can't play a lick. So its annoying for me to have to be bothered with grinding BGs just to get S1 fists (I wish I had not bought the S1 chest first...LOL!) so I can LOOK competitive to people "LF DPS for heroic SP".
Now that being said, I am probably going to take FULL advantage of it and everytime I'm not doing something more useful (i.e. working on dailies, grinding rep, level professions, maybe running a heroic if I'm lucky) I will be grinding the **** outta BGs so I can have all the S1 and Vind. gear so I can have a PvP set to f*ck around in.
But I am appreciating all the opinions. This is going better than expected.
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 10:29am by shadowgryph
Carmeliens wrote:
When I grow up, I'll probably do the same thing. As well as play WoW. For now,
I hope to God/Joe Pesci that when you grow up,
(A) WoW doesn't exist anymore
(B) If it does, it's some retro server like EQ
@Theo: I hope you fully understand the sillyness of arguing with teenagers.
Quote:
We all have choices. Don't berate those that chose to do PvP for their epics.
i dont
i berate **** that ruins wow
im adamant on banning people who use tha premade AV mod, i think deserter debuffs should be a week long, afk should cause bg bans for x time, items should have a max cost placed on them in the ah (large prismatics for one, primals on some servers for another)
if your ALL pvp, then sure.. have the s1
its not those people who are pissing me off
its warlocks who just ding 70, and can grind their s1 set and just start in ssc... **** the 5 mans, **** the badges... unless you run kara (why run heroics when you can honor guild and kara 23 badges a week?)
just for an example
change ALL the honor grind set to "usable only in bg's and arenas" and im 187% happier with it all
pre-expac pvp gear was only better then raid gear if you earned the R14 badge along with it
...but if you did that, you prob didnt have time to raid
but what did they do? they made the HWL loot honor grind
why spend all that MC dkp on a gutgore ripper when you can grind a pvp-peridtions blade
pvp is awesome
pve is awesome
using easy rewards from one or the other for the other's purpose is lame (although the pve -> pvp transition is much easier to swallow)
and why does this make me so mad? when i try to find 2v2 partners, i cant go off gear anymore
middle s2 you can assume, all s2 gear = they had some success
but all s1 + vind gear = it sounds good enough to try out at 1600 rating... but then i find out said s1 SL/SL warlock doesnt KNOW you can burn a void's sac shield and resummon a felhunter before doors open
or that pet + aggressive = felhunter not on healer, but the rogue that jumped him instead
...sigh its breeding bad players and its shortcutting pve
its like playing counterstrike, but every server is infinite money... just cuz people wanted it
everyone buys awp's, only 1 person knows how to use it, and your team loses if you got more suckers on your side
/facepalm
- - - - - - - - -
@shadowgryph
thats another point, fel leather = useless
primalstrike almost useless
blacksmith weapons, unless until v.3
tailoring stands the test of time, but thats bout it... just another point
but hell, thanks for the topic... i havent had an interest in posting in quite some time.,.. this was fun to sink my teeth into
mongoosexcore wrote:
sure you can say "farm mobs enough and youll get one" (trying to add a timeline to it, like an honor grind) but lets put it this way
been playing for over 2 years
i NEVER seen a boe epic when i was farming solo, or leveling, or anything of the sort
been playing for over 2 years
i NEVER seen a boe epic when i was farming solo, or leveling, or anything of the sort
I've seen five.
Just thought I'd throw that in. Random drops are random, y'see.
As for whether it's "ruining the game"...only if it gets taken to ridiculous extremes. At any other notch it's lamentable, but you'll deal with it. Because if some idiot can get it by leeching two raids off his guildies, a smart and capable player will get them like snap.
If the welfare epics were blue and not epic, I imagine it would solve a lot of issues people seem to have with the colour of the name.
mongoosexcore wrote:
@shadowgryph
thats another point, fel leather = useless
primalstrike almost useless
blacksmith weapons, unless until v.3
tailoring stands the test of time, but thats bout it... just another point
Well I was guess I was wrong assuming the FL set was a good thing to grind up to for 5mans heroics and raiding (heroics were about as far off for me as BT when it required revered for keys and I was lucky if I was honored with anyone other than the Consort.)
I haven't been to shadowpanther in a while...so I'll go back and check what welfare gear gets me where I want to be stat-wise.
Quote:
but hell, thanks for the topic... i havent had an interest in posting in quite some time.,.. this was fun to sink my teeth into
yw. glad it stirred some dicussion....the sinister side of me was hoping for some good flaming (always makes me LOL)
Quote:
If the welfare epics were blue and not epic, I imagine it would solve a lot of issues people seem to have with the colour of the name.
Could be interesting...I think experienced players (henceforth referred to as "good") would still not like it. If a new 150 DPS OH Mutilator is a "green" and the 150 MH dagger a "blue", all the top rogues will be using it because of performance. Okay some Azzinoth rogues maybe not, but I have a feeling most would be going combat daggers yet again.
However, inexperienced welfare players who barely know enough to level efficiently to 80 when WoTLK drops, probably wouldn't take the time to realize that S1 gear is S1 gear regardless of the color of the name. Nice psychology experiment but in the end for good players I think gear is gear.
lol
if welfare epics were the same statwise but blues
1: the name would change, welfare blues would be born
2: it would solve 1 problem actually
i would know who earned their s1 and just didnt update... and who just grinded bg's
still a pve shortcut, but would add a filter to my arena recruiting
if welfare epics were the same statwise but blues
1: the name would change, welfare blues would be born
2: it would solve 1 problem actually
i would know who earned their s1 and just didnt update... and who just grinded bg's
still a pve shortcut, but would add a filter to my arena recruiting
DrMayhem wrote:
@Theo: I hope you fully understand the sillyness of arguing with teenagers.
How much do you really think I care about your--or anyone else's--opinion of me?
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