Okay, so I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I can't recall reading about it, and I thought I'd see what people has to say.
I was looking into items for enhancement shaman come end-game, and it turns out there are only 3 (as I recall, but it was about that) pieces of non-tier, non-PVP epic mail gear. There's lots of gear with attack power, but little with strength (which, is, supposedly, an enhancement shamans most important stat.) This particular problem shows up particularly if you're a leatherworker (especially pre-Outlands recipes), since almost all of that mail (which is, admittedly, pretty crappy) has agility and that's about it (spirit doesn't count...what mail wearing class wants spirit?). The Outlands mail at least has attack power along with agility and stamina.
That being said, I was thinking that it would be interesting if Blizzard were to make a change to the way some stats work for shaman. Particularly, since they seem so gung-ho about enhancement shaman and hunters fighting for the same gear, why not let 1 agility = 1 ap for shaman? They would, of course, have to decrease the rate that agility converts to crit for shaman, so that when everyone began stacking agility, their crit rates would stay approximately where they are now.
Of course, they could just fix the itemization so that there was actually some mail with strength on it (would that really be that hard to do?)
Anyway, just something I was thinking about it. Feel free to comment/flame me for saying something that everyone's probably thought for ages (though I can't recall seeing a discussion on it.)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Enhancement Shaman Itemization Issues
Enhancement Shaman Itemization IssuesFollow
AP and str are actually pretty equal for a shammy. most outlands mail items are either caster shammy oriented (+dmg or +heal on them with caster stats like mp/5, spell pen/haste/hit and int) or hunter/enh shammy oriented (which is ap, agi, crit/hit and stam, sometimes mp/5).
now, the way items in outlands are built, the equivalent amount of ap necessary for a given amount of str is always present on the hunter/enh shammy items. say you get a mail headpiece with +hit, 20 agi, 20 int, and 40 ap (just to use an example), the equivalent enh-shammy focused item would have the exact same stats, only with 20 str in place of the 40 ap.
hence, by placing ap on the gear instead of str, you get an item that can potentially fill the needs of two classes. str is useless to hunters, and ap and str are of equal benefit to shammies (barring BoK). so instead of creating another set of items to clog up loot table space, they just used ap in lieu of str.
you can make something of an argument from a min/max perspective involving str vs ap for shammies, but the primary important enh shammy abilities rely on ap, so having a direct ap boost on items really isnt a bad thing, and it takes up less loot table space to boot.
now, the way items in outlands are built, the equivalent amount of ap necessary for a given amount of str is always present on the hunter/enh shammy items. say you get a mail headpiece with +hit, 20 agi, 20 int, and 40 ap (just to use an example), the equivalent enh-shammy focused item would have the exact same stats, only with 20 str in place of the 40 ap.
hence, by placing ap on the gear instead of str, you get an item that can potentially fill the needs of two classes. str is useless to hunters, and ap and str are of equal benefit to shammies (barring BoK). so instead of creating another set of items to clog up loot table space, they just used ap in lieu of str.
you can make something of an argument from a min/max perspective involving str vs ap for shammies, but the primary important enh shammy abilities rely on ap, so having a direct ap boost on items really isnt a bad thing, and it takes up less loot table space to boot.
While I see the direction of your thinking I don't know if that would actually pan out they way you see it.
Personally, I don't see a problem in gear itemization regarding hunter/Enh stat gear, or the STR vs AGI ratio. If I remember right, their calculation regarding AGI/AP/STR we're adjusted prior to even TBC, so techincally changing "us" to fit "them" is a step backwards. If I remember right (granted I didn't pay close attention to the QQing from hunters then, since I didn't play one then...so I didn't care :P), Blizz changed the whole dynamics on range attack power, etc to "fit" current dmg ratio to the "new" dmg ratio. I remember reading a statement from blizz stating something to the effect of, "stat #'s are "smaller", but overall dmg is increased...blah blah blah" something like that. Like I said, don't quote me completely :P
While we can argue, that AGI isn't a stat that enh are "begging" in their gear to have it still does factor into our melee dmg to a degree, thus its not "hurting" us to have it. Vice versa, hunters still do get "some" AP boost from STR, so it doesn't "hurt" them, but not a begging for it factor either.
Now, you did mention that this itemization does lie more in NON-tier, NON-PvP related gear. While this "might" be true, I don't see a "advantage" in trying to gear IN NON-tier, NON-PvP or even NON-set bonus related gear for that matter. Since we are talking in "End-game" related gear content, the reality is that "End-game" gearing tends to come or at least is "wanted" in the form of the affor mentioned types...so its pretty hard to get away from that fact.
Now, we can sit here and split hairs and go piece by piece through specific items and related it to hunters and shamans, but I am "ok" with the difference in AP calculations for both classes and gearing. There are so many game situations and gear options to match it, that your never going to find a "PERFECT" stat setup/per slot for a given class EVER. Its always the strategy of a good player to make the best of whats at hand. And in the battle between Hunter/Enh Shaman gear and itemization...I really don't think its that bad.
Course, if you really want a gear itemization arguement regarding Shaman's...try explain to me the lack of Spell dmg/Crit (caster) MAIL gear from lvls 40-60!! WHATS UP WITH THAT ONE BLIZZ!? HUH!?
Personally, I don't see a problem in gear itemization regarding hunter/Enh stat gear, or the STR vs AGI ratio. If I remember right, their calculation regarding AGI/AP/STR we're adjusted prior to even TBC, so techincally changing "us" to fit "them" is a step backwards. If I remember right (granted I didn't pay close attention to the QQing from hunters then, since I didn't play one then...so I didn't care :P), Blizz changed the whole dynamics on range attack power, etc to "fit" current dmg ratio to the "new" dmg ratio. I remember reading a statement from blizz stating something to the effect of, "stat #'s are "smaller", but overall dmg is increased...blah blah blah" something like that. Like I said, don't quote me completely :P
While we can argue, that AGI isn't a stat that enh are "begging" in their gear to have it still does factor into our melee dmg to a degree, thus its not "hurting" us to have it. Vice versa, hunters still do get "some" AP boost from STR, so it doesn't "hurt" them, but not a begging for it factor either.
Now, you did mention that this itemization does lie more in NON-tier, NON-PvP related gear. While this "might" be true, I don't see a "advantage" in trying to gear IN NON-tier, NON-PvP or even NON-set bonus related gear for that matter. Since we are talking in "End-game" related gear content, the reality is that "End-game" gearing tends to come or at least is "wanted" in the form of the affor mentioned types...so its pretty hard to get away from that fact.
Now, we can sit here and split hairs and go piece by piece through specific items and related it to hunters and shamans, but I am "ok" with the difference in AP calculations for both classes and gearing. There are so many game situations and gear options to match it, that your never going to find a "PERFECT" stat setup/per slot for a given class EVER. Its always the strategy of a good player to make the best of whats at hand. And in the battle between Hunter/Enh Shaman gear and itemization...I really don't think its that bad.
Course, if you really want a gear itemization arguement regarding Shaman's...try explain to me the lack of Spell dmg/Crit (caster) MAIL gear from lvls 40-60!! WHATS UP WITH THAT ONE BLIZZ!? HUH!?
gpyfb wrote:
Course, if you really want a gear itemization arguement regarding Shaman's...try explain to me the lack of Spell dmg/Crit (caster) MAIL gear from lvls 40-60!! WHATS UP WITH THAT ONE BLIZZ!? HUH!?
Don't even get me started on that one. I've got a balance druid, and trying to find leather caster gear pre-60 is all but impossible. Apparently no one who can wear anything other than cloth is suppose to use a caster spec until they hit Outlands. Or wear cloth (and who wants to do that?)
Scholar
45 posts
The primary reason why strength is greater than AP for end-game content is that if you are buffed by kings, then your base stats such as strength will benefit.
Now, about non-tier set and non-pvp epics for end-game, the point is that hunters and rogues have gear designed specifically for them (AGI, AP, Crit, and Int for hunters). This gear if placed on enhance shaman is going to benefit them less than it would on a rogue or hunter.
Tier Set pieces can be hard to get initially, especially if you are not able to raid regularly. So non-tier pieces help fill in the gaps or provide you with upgrades from blues until you get can get your tier pieces. Also, sets don't cover all your gear..
I crafted the ebon netherscale set, got gloves and boots from heroics...but guess what..not 1 point of strength on them. It's almost better to get the desolation stuff them with str gems. And you who cares about the gem bonus on the ebon netherscale, +AGI, nice..
<edited for sp>
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 6:57pm by Onogg
Now, about non-tier set and non-pvp epics for end-game, the point is that hunters and rogues have gear designed specifically for them (AGI, AP, Crit, and Int for hunters). This gear if placed on enhance shaman is going to benefit them less than it would on a rogue or hunter.
Tier Set pieces can be hard to get initially, especially if you are not able to raid regularly. So non-tier pieces help fill in the gaps or provide you with upgrades from blues until you get can get your tier pieces. Also, sets don't cover all your gear..
I crafted the ebon netherscale set, got gloves and boots from heroics...but guess what..not 1 point of strength on them. It's almost better to get the desolation stuff them with str gems. And you who cares about the gem bonus on the ebon netherscale, +AGI, nice..
<edited for sp>
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 6:57pm by Onogg
Onogg wrote:
The primary reason why strength is greater than AP for end-game content is that if you are buffed by kings, then your base stats such as strength will benefit.
^Basically my issue. It seems unfair, and just goes to show how much Blizz doesn't give a crap about shamans.
Quor wrote:
AP and str are actually pretty equal for a shammy. most outlands mail items are either caster shammy oriented (+dmg or +heal on them with caster stats like mp/5, spell pen/haste/hit and int) or hunter/enh shammy oriented (which is ap, agi, crit/hit and stam, sometimes mp/5).
now, the way items in outlands are built, the equivalent amount of ap necessary for a given amount of str is always present on the hunter/enh shammy items. say you get a mail headpiece with +hit, 20 agi, 20 int, and 40 ap (just to use an example), the equivalent enh-shammy focused item would have the exact same stats, only with 20 str in place of the 40 ap.
hence, by placing ap on the gear instead of str, you get an item that can potentially fill the needs of two classes. str is useless to hunters, and ap and str are of equal benefit to shammies (barring BoK). so instead of creating another set of items to clog up loot table space, they just used ap in lieu of str.
you can make something of an argument from a min/max perspective involving str vs ap for shammies, but the primary important enh shammy abilities rely on ap, so having a direct ap boost on items really isnt a bad thing, and it takes up less loot table space to boot.
now, the way items in outlands are built, the equivalent amount of ap necessary for a given amount of str is always present on the hunter/enh shammy items. say you get a mail headpiece with +hit, 20 agi, 20 int, and 40 ap (just to use an example), the equivalent enh-shammy focused item would have the exact same stats, only with 20 str in place of the 40 ap.
hence, by placing ap on the gear instead of str, you get an item that can potentially fill the needs of two classes. str is useless to hunters, and ap and str are of equal benefit to shammies (barring BoK). so instead of creating another set of items to clog up loot table space, they just used ap in lieu of str.
you can make something of an argument from a min/max perspective involving str vs ap for shammies, but the primary important enh shammy abilities rely on ap, so having a direct ap boost on items really isnt a bad thing, and it takes up less loot table space to boot.
The thing is, so many item points are wasted (especially on our tier gear) on MP5 and Int, and with SR and the Water Shield changes, those stats are nearly useless for end game Enhancement. Those points should be converted to Str and Crit so that we actually get stats that are crucial to DPS.
Eh, I don't see gearing as much of an issue for enhance shammies. Attack power slightly worse than strength, and agility translates into crit rating at slightly less than 1:1. You take what's best, no matter whether it's mail or leather.
lsfreak wrote:
Eh, I don't see gearing as much of an issue for enhance shammies. Attack power slightly worse than strength, and agility translates into crit rating at slightly less than 1:1. You take what's best, no matter whether it's mail or leather.
See, I hate that line of thinking. Attack power is definitely worse than strength, especially since BoK is a pretty much standard buff.
And I don't want to have to wear leather. Part of the reason I like shaman is that I can do damage and still take a hit or two without dying. Now, I realize in raiding situations, you shouldn't be getting hit. But in smaller scale groups and while farming, it'd be nice to have all mail without gimping your DPS.
I don't know, I guess I just don't think it's fair that we have to share our gear with hunters, and it's designed to be better for them than it is for us. Blizzard can't spare a couple guys to make separate armor for shamans and hunters? I don't even care if it looks the same as other pieces, as long as the stats are appropriate. I mean, sure, there are other classes that have to fight over the same gear, but it's pretty much stuff that has stats that are fairly optimal for both classes. Attack power isn't optimal for enhancement shamans.
And crit isn't optimal for shadow priests. Or any caster, really. The best fury warrior gear includes several pieces of leather, and the same for ret pallies, especially due to how powerful expertise is (Hydross shoulders and Vashj belt, anyone?) Hell, some hunter mail isn't ideal for hunters, since with decent pallies and a few fel mana pots they shouldn't have too much for mana issues anywho, and survival hunters can and should be using several agility-heavy leather pieces.
Quote:
While we can argue, that AGI isn't a stat that enh are "begging" in their gear to have it still does factor into our melee dmg to a degree, thus its not "hurting" us to have it. Vice versa, hunters still do get "some" AP boost from STR, so it doesn't "hurt" them, but not a begging for it factor either.
Hunters only get melee AP from Str, so it's very much a wasted stat for them.
Really it doesn't seem like there should be a lot of "middle ground" gear that both hunters and shamans can use - but if it existed, it should be +AP and +Crit rather than tons of agility. Hunters and Shamans need fairly distinct gear from one another, and the Str vs. AP issue is really just a tiny part of that distinction.
Axehilt wrote:
Hunters only get melee AP from Str, so it's very much a wasted stat for them.
Really it doesn't seem like there should be a lot of "middle ground" gear that both hunters and shamans can use - but if it existed, it should be +AP and +Crit rather than tons of agility. Hunters and Shamans need fairly distinct gear from one another, and the Str vs. AP issue is really just a tiny part of that distinction.
The reason that there is not any enhancement shaman itemized mail gear is because Hunter is the single most played class in WoW. 16% of the total playerbase is comprised of huntards. Shaman are the least played, running at roughly 8%. This means you're looking at over 1.1 million hunters wanting mail gear vs. under 600k shaman...Blizzard is obviously going to cater to the hunters first. Shamans make do with the hunter cast-off gear if they want to be enhance.
WoW Census data
Taurrus wrote:
The reason that there is not any enhancement shaman itemized mail gear is because Hunter is the single most played class in WoW. 16% of the total playerbase is comprised of huntards. Shaman are the least played, running at roughly 8%. This means you're looking at over 1.1 million hunters wanting mail gear vs. under 600k shaman...Blizzard is obviously going to cater to the hunters first. Shamans make do with the hunter cast-off gear if they want to be enhance.
WoW Census data
The reason that there is less enhancement shaman itemization is because pre-BC, the differences in spec weren't considered as much as compared to classes as a whole when gear was made. If you notice, pre-BC, the Shaman Tier sets were all Resto. Paladin gear was completely hybrid with Judgement, and full Holy with Redemption. Warriors had all tank gear. Druids had all healing gear.
It is NOT because there are more hunters than shamans that itemization is not proper for enhancement shaman.
It is that Warlocks, Rogues, Hunters, and Mages have always had roughly the same needed stats pre-BC, so they already had something to work with. However, Blizzard wizened up in their thoughts of balance for the hybrid classes, and so made the next tier sets vary in stats to match specs. As such, they first covered more tanks, Prot Pally gear and Feral Druid gear. They always had healer gear down.
DPS specs of hybrid classes are down on the priority list. Ret Pallies are promised real itemization next patch. Shadow Priests were able to drop their green "of Shadow Wrath" gear for epics. Fury Warriors are still wearing leather, however. And Enhancement shaman will still have to wait for their dues as well.
Hunters have their itemization already because they've ALWAYS had direction with their stats. It's obvious that all hunters use agility, so that should be on most hunter gear. The variances are only in amount of agility, AP, crit, MP5 and intellect between specs. The difference between restoration and enhancement, like Fury and Protection, is in stats altogether, not just amount and ratio of stats.
Recent Visitors: 5
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (5)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Enhancement Shaman Itemization Issues
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC