1. it's recommended that we use slow/slow weapons (OH should be slower than MH) to optimize our damage. from what i read, it has something to do with windfury proc (i know it has 3 sec internal cd) and flurry. can someone please explain to me more in detail as to why exactly?
2. i think i read somewhere that too much haste rating is no good. is it true? if so, whats the max haste rating before more is bad?
thanks for the help. really appreciate it.
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Wowish wrote:
1. it's recommended that we use slow/slow weapons (OH should be slower than MH) to optimize our damage. from what i read, it has something to do with windfury proc (i know it has 3 sec internal cd) and flurry. can someone please explain to me more in detail as to why exactly?
With Flurry, anything slower than a 2.6 speed weapon supposedly "wastes" Flurry charges. I don't know, I honestly never bothered to figure this out since dual-wielding with WF/WF tends to give you criticals so often anyways that Flurry is up almost all the time and frequently overwrites itself. Either way that brings us to the second point...
... which is that you always want the slowest possible weapon for WF because the procs do more damage with slower, harder-hitting weapons. As far as one-handers go, 2.6 is generally the slowest they get with very few exceptions. The faster OH/slower MH combo is superstition; just make sure both of your weapons are as slow as possible. The internal cooldown or one hand "stealing" procs from the other has nothing to do with it at all.
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2. i think i read somewhere that too much haste rating is no good. is it true? if so, whats the max haste rating before more is bad?
Hopefully someone else can help you witht his one. I specced out of Enhancement before haste rating started becoming readily available.
Well, strictly, it *does* have to do with your offhand eating charges Windfury charges, since they'll do less damage. A fast offhand will not only do crappy damage itself, but not let your better mainhand get those Windfuries either. The more Windfuries your mainhand gets, the better, because they'll do more damage. That's one of the reasons, for example, the level 60 PvP axe is on par with the level 70 blues and Runic Hammer - slow, so less charges get "eaten," and even those that do are hitting decently hard.
The haste thing is a myth that between 1.41-1.51 speed, something about the weapons interacting with the Windfury cooldown resulting in a marked decrease in damage. It's been disproven.
Also, another reason for slow/slow is harder Stormstrike hits.
The haste thing is a myth that between 1.41-1.51 speed, something about the weapons interacting with the Windfury cooldown resulting in a marked decrease in damage. It's been disproven.
Also, another reason for slow/slow is harder Stormstrike hits.
I've asked enhancement friends whether or not haste is a bad thing for them and they've always told me no. So I'd say stack as much as you want.
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lsfreak wrote:
Well, strictly, it *does* have to do with your offhand eating charges Windfury charges, since they'll do less damage. A fast offhand will not only do crappy damage itself, but not let your better mainhand get those Windfuries either. The more Windfuries your mainhand gets, the better, because they'll do more damage. That's one of the reasons, for example, the level 60 PvP axe is on par with the level 70 blues and Runic Hammer - slow, so less charges get "eaten," and even those that do are hitting decently hard.
The bottom line is that when all is said and done, you have absolutely zero control about when WF procs or on what weapon. It's a flat 20% chance for WF to proc on either hand when the internal cooldown is not in effect. Having a faster MH only gives you more chances that it's going to proc more on the MH than the OH, but it gaurantees that those procs are going to be weaker when they occur. You're not coming out ahead or doing yourself any favors by not using two slow weapons.
Edited, Feb 19th 2008 12:48pm by Gaudion
I think we might be arguing the same point, but confusing each other in the process.
Slow main hand = harder Windfury procs, harder SS
Slow offhand = harder Windfury procs, harder SS, and less of a chance that the Windfury will be on an offhand hit and therefore more likely it will hit harder
Also, Windfury actually has about a 36% chance to proc while dual-wielding with twin WF imbues, which is one of the reasons DW is so much more powerful than 2H in sustained damage.
Slow main hand = harder Windfury procs, harder SS
Slow offhand = harder Windfury procs, harder SS, and less of a chance that the Windfury will be on an offhand hit and therefore more likely it will hit harder
Also, Windfury actually has about a 36% chance to proc while dual-wielding with twin WF imbues, which is one of the reasons DW is so much more powerful than 2H in sustained damage.
lsfreak wrote:
I think we might be arguing the same point, but confusing each other in the process.
Slow main hand = harder Windfury procs, harder SS
Slow offhand = harder Windfury procs, harder SS, and less of a chance that the Windfury will be on an offhand hit and therefore more likely it will hit harder
Slow main hand = harder Windfury procs, harder SS
Slow offhand = harder Windfury procs, harder SS, and less of a chance that the Windfury will be on an offhand hit and therefore more likely it will hit harder
Right, but what I'm saying is that it's not really a benefit to get yourself a faster main-hand just so you can get more procs on it. You will, but they'll be weaker.
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Also, Windfury actually has about a 36% chance to proc while dual-wielding with twin WF imbues, which is one of the reasons DW is so much more powerful than 2H in sustained damage.
That 36% is some kind of average-over-time number with both WF imbues taken into account.
What I'm saying is that on a hit-by-hit basis, each weapon still has the base 20% chance to proc WF and that will never change. So while having a faster main-hand increases the chance that it'll have more procs over time than your off-hand, in the end that's all it really is: a chance. It also doesn't stop the off-hand from "stealing" procs; again, it's completely random with the 20% proc in effect and all you can do is set yourself up for the chance that, because it's proccing more often, the main-hand will cancel out more chances for the off-hand to proc. Chance, chance, chance... There's only one constant involved: If you use that faster main-hand you are 100% guaranteed to have weaker procs when your main-hand does trigger. So you're not really coming out ahead that much over time, if at all.
Based on my personal tests and observations from 41-62, slow/slow > fast/slow.
Edited, Feb 19th 2008 1:53pm by Gaudion
Ah, okay. I was never advocating a slower mainhand, and the slowest main OR offhand I'd willingly take would be the badges fists (2.5), and beyond those I'd never take anything faster than 2.6. You want a slow mainhand for hard hits, and a slow offhand to ensure more of the Windfury procs go to the mainhand.
And for the 36%, that's the proc rate outside the 3-sec cooldown. If you include hits that are under the cooldown, then it's 20% overall, but outside the cooldown you actually have about 36% chance to proc. The original testing is gone, but the information remains on EJ's enhance shammy thread.
And for the 36%, that's the proc rate outside the 3-sec cooldown. If you include hits that are under the cooldown, then it's 20% overall, but outside the cooldown you actually have about 36% chance to proc. The original testing is gone, but the information remains on EJ's enhance shammy thread.
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Ah, okay. I was never advocating a slower mainhand, and the slowest main OR offhand I'd willingly take would be the badges fists (2.5), and beyond those I'd never take anything faster than 2.6. You want a slow mainhand for hard hits, and a slow offhand to ensure more of the Windfury procs go to the mainhand.
Ah... Now I understand what you were saying. I thought you were talking about faster and slower in terms of the main-hand compared to the off-hand, but you were making general references. So you're right, we were actually talking about the same thing.
lsfreak wrote:
And for the 36%, that's the proc rate outside the 3-sec cooldown. If you include hits that are under the cooldown, then it's 20% overall, but outside the cooldown you actually have about 36% chance to proc. The original testing is gone, but the information remains on EJ's enhance shammy thread.
I see.
Well the reason enhancement shaman want 2.6 speed weapons is because with 20% crit and flurry is almost constant and means every other attack you land can proc wf, this is allowing you as many WF procs possible.
Now haste is ok, but it can put you behing WF CD which will lower your dps, if you have enough haste and procs to often get 1.1 delay your good, basicly, you want an attack open to swing whenever cooldown is ready for it.
Also if your DW you want both weapons to have matching speeds, so that your main hand has just as good of a chance proccing wf as possible.
And just so you know, slow weapons are proffered by shaman since our main source of damage comes from WF, which is not affected by speed of weapon, has a cooldown, so you want as hard hitting wf as possible.
Now haste is ok, but it can put you behing WF CD which will lower your dps, if you have enough haste and procs to often get 1.1 delay your good, basicly, you want an attack open to swing whenever cooldown is ready for it.
Also if your DW you want both weapons to have matching speeds, so that your main hand has just as good of a chance proccing wf as possible.
And just so you know, slow weapons are proffered by shaman since our main source of damage comes from WF, which is not affected by speed of weapon, has a cooldown, so you want as hard hitting wf as possible.
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