This is kind of long, because most of my posts tend to be long.
I was originally going to post this in scottyjames' post about leveling a rogue, but I realized my question is quite different than his.
I have read all the FAQs, and realized that what I'm really after is some kind of personal response. I've just gotten to level 11 on my rogue and don't really know where to spend my talent points. I'm not necessarily looking for the most efficient leveling build, because, if possible, I want to avoid respeccing. I'm looking for a *doable* leveling build that hopefully is also good for grouping and enjoyable to play (shouldn't be hard, since I love poisons, stealth, swords... something from just about every tree).
There are so many things about being a rogue that I like that it's hard for me to figure out which ones *I'd* have the most fun playing. I want poisons, sneak attacks, swords, and not having to be behind the target all the time... at least at this stage. I realize that some of those are contradictory. I should also note that I do not plan on doing any PvP.
So, I had some questions of more experienced players:
1. What is your spec/build?
2. Why did you pick it and what do you like most about it?
3. What do you wish were different about it/frustrations - particularly things you could have from other specs, rather than problems with the rogue in general (NOT looking for complaints about Blizzard's design of rogues).
Then some more specifics:
1. If you went Mutilate, did it ever get easier to get behind the target while soloing? And if it didn't, do the non-behind-the-back spells still do enough damage to keep you alive? Or did you have to respec? Are there any particularly good talents for *soloing* on the Assassination tree (I think this is in at least one of the FAQs, but I can't remember which one and I'm trying to keep the information all together).
2. Is Subt/Assassination doable for PvE soloing and grouping? Or do I have to do Combat/Assassination?
3. If you went swords, did it still feel like a rogue (sneaky, etc.) or did it become more purely DPS? I know the damage is a lot of the reason people become rogues, but I find pure damage/fighting/defense boring (which is why, out of my 20+ characters, I've never rolled a warrior).
4. As good as swords are for soloing and, from what I've heard, PvP... are they doable for PvE grouping?
5. Poisons: how much of a difference do the poison talents make (including Mut) in their effectiveness? I really like the idea of using and mastering poisons. If they're severely crippled by not having the poison talents, that would be another + for Assassination. (And if one or more of the poison talents are necessary, please state which one(s).)
I do plan to group more than solo on this character once I hit around level 20, since I created her for a specific group of people (they have priest healer, paladin tank, and hunter), so if there isn't one that is doable for both, I'd rather go with the grouping one... That said, there's a part of me that thinks she'd look great with a couple of swords, and I love the idea of the Blade fury. I'm almost thinking I ought to make *another* rogue so I can do both :P
And, *sigh*, if I have to respec, I will, just would really prefer not to.
Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.
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Personal thoughts from experienced roguesFollow
Technically, if you're not looking for efficiency, anything will "work". I've had my rogue for almost a year and a half, leveled as an Assassination/Sub build, respecced at 55, and went muti from 55-70, and raided as muti until I picked up some decent maces.
Regardless of what build you use, or what weapons you use(already stating you wanted to use swords), you will always have poisons(if you do the quest line after lvl 20), sneak attacks(cheap shot, garrote, ambush is the only weapon dependent stealth opener).
1)At the moment I am 18/43/0 Combat Maces.
2)So I didn't have to respec between raiding and doing arena(saves me SOOOOOO much gold :D )
3)Easily kiteable(more of a PvP issue), after you pop CloS, Imp Sprint(if you're specced into it) and Vanish, you're pretty much at anyones mercy(save few instances where you may be able to LoS or get help)
More specifics:
1)I never...ever, had a problem solo grinding as mutilate. If anything, I prefer it over combat(with the exception of elementals)just for the simple fact that you don't have as much downtime b/c you're not getting hit(lower repair bill as well).
2)To a certain extent, yes. I would say once you get to Outland, you need to switch to something with at least 20 points in combat, and less than 23 points in sub.
3)Tbh, the association of daggers and rogues as "must have" seemed kind of silly to me. Not knocking them at all, since I used daggers from 1-70, but denying the use of a certain weapon b/c it doesn't seem "roguey"(I seriously hate that word), is limiting you...severely.
4)Swords are the best for PvE grouping...peroid.
5)Don't pick up Master Poisoner, unless you're planning on doing PvP, since NPC's(most, if not all) don't use dispelling talents. If PvE is your focus, go Vile over Imp for more overall damage, but if you're not planning on raiding, Imp poisons may come out on top.
Trust me...you'll respec...probably more than once in your rogues life. I can't remember the last time my respec cost was under 50g.
With that being said, have fun w/ your new toy. ^^
Regardless of what build you use, or what weapons you use(already stating you wanted to use swords), you will always have poisons(if you do the quest line after lvl 20), sneak attacks(cheap shot, garrote, ambush is the only weapon dependent stealth opener).
1)At the moment I am 18/43/0 Combat Maces.
2)So I didn't have to respec between raiding and doing arena(saves me SOOOOOO much gold :D )
3)Easily kiteable(more of a PvP issue), after you pop CloS, Imp Sprint(if you're specced into it) and Vanish, you're pretty much at anyones mercy(save few instances where you may be able to LoS or get help)
More specifics:
1)I never...ever, had a problem solo grinding as mutilate. If anything, I prefer it over combat(with the exception of elementals)just for the simple fact that you don't have as much downtime b/c you're not getting hit(lower repair bill as well).
2)To a certain extent, yes. I would say once you get to Outland, you need to switch to something with at least 20 points in combat, and less than 23 points in sub.
3)Tbh, the association of daggers and rogues as "must have" seemed kind of silly to me. Not knocking them at all, since I used daggers from 1-70, but denying the use of a certain weapon b/c it doesn't seem "roguey"(I seriously hate that word), is limiting you...severely.
4)Swords are the best for PvE grouping...peroid.
5)Don't pick up Master Poisoner, unless you're planning on doing PvP, since NPC's(most, if not all) don't use dispelling talents. If PvE is your focus, go Vile over Imp for more overall damage, but if you're not planning on raiding, Imp poisons may come out on top.
Trust me...you'll respec...probably more than once in your rogues life. I can't remember the last time my respec cost was under 50g.
With that being said, have fun w/ your new toy. ^^
My "experience" is debatable, but I'll give it a whirl.
1-2. Currently Mutilate, because the best weapons I could get my hands on are daggers. BGing for Gladiator weapons, at which point I will no longer be Mutilate.
3. Positioning is a ***** (especially when PUGing. Mobility can be a problem. Needing poisons for top dmg is frustrating (mainly on poison immune bosses and mobs, but also on people in BGs who are constantly getting cleansed (if their team is any good)).
Specifics
1. Yes, you get a lot of more tools (Cheap Shot, Kidney Shot mainly, but also Blind if need be) that are helpful in addition to Gouge.
2. Yes, though you won't do quite as much damage, and may not always top meters. You should still deal respectable damage up to 70 though, if your tank is any good.
3. Yes. You don't have to if you don't want, but Stealth, Sap, Poisons, Vanish, Blind, etc. all got a workout.
4. Swords are arguably the #1 PVE grouping build for a rogue.
5. They add a lot of effectiveness to poisons, but you still proc poisons a good amount without them. It's a matter of "good" versus "better." You may find better uses for those points elsewhere though.
1-2. Currently Mutilate, because the best weapons I could get my hands on are daggers. BGing for Gladiator weapons, at which point I will no longer be Mutilate.
3. Positioning is a ***** (especially when PUGing. Mobility can be a problem. Needing poisons for top dmg is frustrating (mainly on poison immune bosses and mobs, but also on people in BGs who are constantly getting cleansed (if their team is any good)).
Specifics
1. Yes, you get a lot of more tools (Cheap Shot, Kidney Shot mainly, but also Blind if need be) that are helpful in addition to Gouge.
2. Yes, though you won't do quite as much damage, and may not always top meters. You should still deal respectable damage up to 70 though, if your tank is any good.
3. Yes. You don't have to if you don't want, but Stealth, Sap, Poisons, Vanish, Blind, etc. all got a workout.
4. Swords are arguably the #1 PVE grouping build for a rogue.
5. They add a lot of effectiveness to poisons, but you still proc poisons a good amount without them. It's a matter of "good" versus "better." You may find better uses for those points elsewhere though.
Vespassienne wrote:
1. What is your spec/build?
I'm combat swords. You can check out my armory below
Vespassienne wrote:
2. Why did you pick it and what do you like most about it?
I picked it because I wanted something that gives me the chance to wail away at someone if need be. Plus the fact that I always wanted to dual wield swords.
Vespassienne wrote:
3. What do you wish were different about it/frustrations - particularly things you could have from other specs, rather than problems with the rogue in general (NOT looking for complaints about Blizzard's design of rogues).
I actually love my spec. I did ask for help a bit back to get the best spec for me (but all I really had to do was move around a few points). I mean, sometimes I wonder what it'd be like to try out shadowstep (thinking about going to a PTR to try it out), but in the end, I still love my swords.
Vespassienne wrote:
Then some more specifics:
3. If you went swords, did it still feel like a rogue (sneaky, etc.) or did it become more purely DPS? I know the damage is a lot of the reason people become rogues, but I find pure damage/fighting/defense boring (which is why, out of my 20+ characters, I've never rolled a warrior).
I still feel like a rogue. I mean, who else out there can still sneak up to an enemy and surprise them but attacking them all of a sudden? Just because I don't have the improved stealth stuff, doesn't mean I can't do it... I just have to use things like distract more often than someone that is in the imp stealth area.
Vespassienne wrote:
4. As good as swords are for soloing and, from what I've heard, PvP... are they doable for PvE grouping?
Definitely. I'm in PVE, and I apparently do great in it. The last group I was in, said that my damage was the highest out of the group (these people I usually always play with and they usually beat me in damage). I was surprised but glad that I'm improving in the way that I play.
Vespassienne wrote:
5. Poisons: how much of a difference do the poison talents make (including Mut) in their effectiveness? I really like the idea of using and mastering poisons. If they're severely crippled by not having the poison talents, that would be another + for Assassination. (And if one or more of the poison talents are necessary, please state which one(s).)
I'm not sure how much difference the poison talents make, as I've never tried, but my poisons seem to do the trick, and isn't that what we all really need? We practically just want the poisons to stick, and for me, most of the time they do.
Hope this helps a bit =)
Quote:
Are there any particularly good talents for *soloing* on the Assassination tree
Remorseless Attacks has great synergy with Mutilate for solo grinding. Whereas Fleeted foot is pretty pointless for solo play. Other moves like deadened Nerves and imp. Expose Armor are also pretty pointless in Solo play.
Master poisoner is useful as it helps to reduce the amount of times a mob of higher level will resist your poisons. However the resist poison effect is also useful since it will help you to avoid those irritating 3minute long DoT poison effects that mobs tend to land on you so you can't stealth for the next 3 minutes. That being said at lvl 66 this point is moot since you can just CloS it off. But then the talent becomes really useful for PvP.
Improved Kidney shot is also more useful in Solo play since you will generally not be using it in 5 mans.
Quote:
do the non-behind-the-back spells still do enough damage to keep you alive?
Generally... No. The most irritating factor of leveling as a dagger spec is the constant start-stop of fights. Personally I leveled from 1-40 with daggers. Then I changed specs every few levels depending on weapons but generally I was a dagger man at heart but I had no problem spending all my money on re-specking. My re-speck talents was at about 50g from the levels 50+ I don't understand people who don't want to change talents. Sometimes I changed 2/3 times a weekend just because I fancied doing an instance as a different spec.
One of the reasons that Combat excels over Daggers for solo grining is the ability to take on mobs who are immune to stuns/poisons. And the ability to take on more than one mob at a time with little hassel
As a Mutilate rogue you simply can't kill some elites, but as a Combat rogue being able to hit AR>Evasion>S&D>Bladeflurry you can eat through elites that would crush any dagger spec rogue. Maces are in fact good for leveling since along those lines your stuns will break up the incoming damage you receive.
The same technique can also be used to take out packs of 3-4+ mobs wheras dagger builds will always be single target affairs since that is what they are best at.
The pay off as Mutilate is that most of the time Mobs will die before they even exit CS>Kindeyshot. Which is just as well because once they are out they become an annoyance.
Ive been muty since BC came out.
the assasination tree adds a load of damage and application bonus's to poisons. They arent crippled without them, just loads better in terms of dps and chance to apply. Envenom is very powerful. Deadened nerves and master poisons should be avoided. I didnt take fleet footed or impr KK but to each person their own, those were just my personal choices not to invest in.
actually not truly. Improved poisons does more damage than vile in all aspects. Its like comparing ap to hit with standard stats on your char. hit comes out on top in terms of priority. Over a course of fighting a boss or anything else, more poison applications means more damage than fewer poison applications that did 20% more damage. I happened to have chosen both by the way. Your open to argue my notion though..
Non back end damage is viable, its not like we're specifically designed to do damage from back. Its just that our 41 point talent needs it. We have a lot of damage boosters for combat [as in actual combat, not the spec; though we are a great damage booster to the combat tree anyway].
We have the best combo point generation. Quick recovery makes us the healers friends and reduces down time and works on ALL sources of healing. WE have great burst damage matched by good sustained damage. Sub is about high spike damage and stealth attacks and survival, combat about sustained damage, utility and energy efficiency and muty about burst, poisons and cp generation.
The one thing i dislike is our positional requirement and poison requirement. Muty can match combat in terms of dps but combat doesnt need to be constantly behind a poisoned enemy to do that damage. We need too many scenarios to go our way to match what combat does to any and everything in anyway it wants to. Its like combat sex involves all sorts of fun but muty ccan really only get any fun by drugging their partners and sodomising them [putting the *** in assasination], Sub just appears behind different people, has their way and disapears...
I dislike that we basicly have to eventually be leathered fury warrios with better aggro management tactics to be raid viable. But enough of my QQ-ing. I tried to keep it to what i wish we had from other trees and for me thats basicly that we dont have a position req.
Blizz has gone out of their way for us to have poisonable targets. we can poison murmur and the fel reaver of all things.
off spec sub is viable but off spec combat just has more to offer us in terms of sustained damage and utility. The last thing we need is to increase the need for us to be constantly behind an enemy to do damage. The better hit, longer gouge and off hand specialisation [which matches in damage provided to the 20% to muty from sub] adds a better aspect to our tactics.
Edited, Feb 14th 2008 9:17pm by Tenjen
the assasination tree adds a load of damage and application bonus's to poisons. They arent crippled without them, just loads better in terms of dps and chance to apply. Envenom is very powerful. Deadened nerves and master poisons should be avoided. I didnt take fleet footed or impr KK but to each person their own, those were just my personal choices not to invest in.
Quote:
If PvE is your focus, go Vile over Imp for more overall damage, but if you're not planning on raiding, Imp poisons may come out on top
actually not truly. Improved poisons does more damage than vile in all aspects. Its like comparing ap to hit with standard stats on your char. hit comes out on top in terms of priority. Over a course of fighting a boss or anything else, more poison applications means more damage than fewer poison applications that did 20% more damage. I happened to have chosen both by the way. Your open to argue my notion though..
Non back end damage is viable, its not like we're specifically designed to do damage from back. Its just that our 41 point talent needs it. We have a lot of damage boosters for combat [as in actual combat, not the spec; though we are a great damage booster to the combat tree anyway].
We have the best combo point generation. Quick recovery makes us the healers friends and reduces down time and works on ALL sources of healing. WE have great burst damage matched by good sustained damage. Sub is about high spike damage and stealth attacks and survival, combat about sustained damage, utility and energy efficiency and muty about burst, poisons and cp generation.
The one thing i dislike is our positional requirement and poison requirement. Muty can match combat in terms of dps but combat doesnt need to be constantly behind a poisoned enemy to do that damage. We need too many scenarios to go our way to match what combat does to any and everything in anyway it wants to. Its like combat sex involves all sorts of fun but muty ccan really only get any fun by drugging their partners and sodomising them [putting the *** in assasination], Sub just appears behind different people, has their way and disapears...
I dislike that we basicly have to eventually be leathered fury warrios with better aggro management tactics to be raid viable. But enough of my QQ-ing. I tried to keep it to what i wish we had from other trees and for me thats basicly that we dont have a position req.
Blizz has gone out of their way for us to have poisonable targets. we can poison murmur and the fel reaver of all things.
off spec sub is viable but off spec combat just has more to offer us in terms of sustained damage and utility. The last thing we need is to increase the need for us to be constantly behind an enemy to do damage. The better hit, longer gouge and off hand specialisation [which matches in damage provided to the 20% to muty from sub] adds a better aspect to our tactics.
Edited, Feb 14th 2008 9:17pm by Tenjen
48 posts
Spec: Combat swords
Build: Because of the dmg!
What I wish was different: I wish that combat maces did the same amount of dmg as swords b/c they look better IMO (speaking about glaitor set)
Soloing: Here's where I left sub for combat. Around lvl 40 I found that I wasn't having problem killing things, but that my ability to kill them slowed down...
I respec'd combat swords and haven't looked back. Being able to take on 3 mobs and come out w/ half health is great (evasion/bladefurry/adrenaline rush/bladefists breath for 200 AP)
pvp/pve: yes swords are better for pve and maces for pvp. When I was pvping for my gladiators set, I asked several times in this forum, "are swords that much better for pve than maces?" Most the the answers I got were to the effect of, "swords are better, but not by much, unless you're in a 25man, due to all the buffs". I don't know if that is true or not since I've never been on a 25 man raid. I did choose swords however, and whatever weapons you do choose, I'd advise getting the gladiators set from pvping. I don't even think the weapon drops in kara match my 91.2 dps gladiator swords that I got from pvping.
18k honor for main hand plus 20 EoTs marks
9k honor for off hand plus 20 eots marks
Do what you think is fun, and like the other post said, combat swords is still fun, you just have to use distract more
Cheers!
Build: Because of the dmg!
What I wish was different: I wish that combat maces did the same amount of dmg as swords b/c they look better IMO (speaking about glaitor set)
Soloing: Here's where I left sub for combat. Around lvl 40 I found that I wasn't having problem killing things, but that my ability to kill them slowed down...
I respec'd combat swords and haven't looked back. Being able to take on 3 mobs and come out w/ half health is great (evasion/bladefurry/adrenaline rush/bladefists breath for 200 AP)
pvp/pve: yes swords are better for pve and maces for pvp. When I was pvping for my gladiators set, I asked several times in this forum, "are swords that much better for pve than maces?" Most the the answers I got were to the effect of, "swords are better, but not by much, unless you're in a 25man, due to all the buffs". I don't know if that is true or not since I've never been on a 25 man raid. I did choose swords however, and whatever weapons you do choose, I'd advise getting the gladiators set from pvping. I don't even think the weapon drops in kara match my 91.2 dps gladiator swords that I got from pvping.
18k honor for main hand plus 20 EoTs marks
9k honor for off hand plus 20 eots marks
Do what you think is fun, and like the other post said, combat swords is still fun, you just have to use distract more
Cheers!
allak isnt letting me edit my post, so heres my edit
about not being able to get behind something. i was only thinking of average and good situations. But if the push comes to shove and we cant get behind something, we're in some trouble.
Our reliance on poisons, position, and through that, to stuns are our downfall.
Edited, Feb 14th 2008 9:32pm by Tenjen
about not being able to get behind something. i was only thinking of average and good situations. But if the push comes to shove and we cant get behind something, we're in some trouble.
Our reliance on poisons, position, and through that, to stuns are our downfall.
Edited, Feb 14th 2008 9:32pm by Tenjen
1. 19/42 Swords
2. I picked it because it's the best DPS build at level 70 (barring the fist/sword build, but I dislike that for other reasons).
3. If I could change anything about the build, I'd move Vile Poisons farther up in the Assassination tree so I could take 5/5 into that without sacrificing points in Lethality.
2. I picked it because it's the best DPS build at level 70 (barring the fist/sword build, but I dislike that for other reasons).
3. If I could change anything about the build, I'd move Vile Poisons farther up in the Assassination tree so I could take 5/5 into that without sacrificing points in Lethality.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
I've leveled to 64 as Sub but I've learned a lot since I first started. My first Sub build was poor at best but it was fun and I stubbornly stuck to daggers as I didn't want to limit my attack skill options. After spending time reading the boards here I changed up my attack sequences and improved my killing time a lot even though my build was still pretty bad. I then changed my build to a very focused Shadowstep Ambush Dagger build which suddenly had me killing things faster than ever before but it also became very obvious that it was not a good spec for group play. A week or so ago, I finally decided to take the plunge and put a sword in my main hand along with a Shadowstep Hemo build and all I can say is that I had no idea that I could kill stuff even faster without my pretty Ambush crits. My current build is 13/0/41.
I play my Rogue for fun and as a break from being a tanking Warrior. Having Shadowstep isn't necessary but it makes the character more fun for me and so I'm going to keep it as long as I can. If I decide to take my Rogue into endgame stuff that requires a more conventional raiding build then I will do so but for now there is no reason for me to change to a combat build.
I play my Rogue for fun and as a break from being a tanking Warrior. Having Shadowstep isn't necessary but it makes the character more fun for me and so I'm going to keep it as long as I can. If I decide to take my Rogue into endgame stuff that requires a more conventional raiding build then I will do so but for now there is no reason for me to change to a combat build.
Scholar
19 posts
Seems like you can level as whatever suits your fancy. Combat swords seems to be the favorite because it is the easiest. I've been Mutilate for a very long time (I actually specced into Assassination long before I ever got the Muti talent), and I enjoy it. The positioning is very frustrating sometimes, but usually not a problem in solo play. I have a hard time killing groups of 4+ mobs my level, and elementals (since they can't be poisioned), but other than that, it's pretty easy. I have to take the time to pick and choose my targets, using sap when I can, and Vanish if there's just too many. I do go through a lot of health pots/bandages/food when I'm soloing mobs at or above my level.
Staying behind the target becomes a bigger issue in groups. Some boss fights require you to run around, and this makes it harder on a Muti rogue to get back behind him. Also, I've found that some tanks tend to fight groups of mobs bu running around, so that makes it pretty much impossible to stay behind the target. You can still spam Sinister Strike as a Muti rogue, but it's really a last resort since it doesn't do much damage (but is usually enough to keep you alive and stabbing).
All in all, I've enjoyed playing Muti. The combo point generation is really great. Right now I've got my 20 points in Combat, although I used to have them in Sub. Since having changed, I don't really miss Imp Stealth. (Although I did get Fleet Footed to make up for the speed diff...can't handle slow stealth!) I don't do PvP at all, so in PvE I just have to use Distract a bit more to make up for having lesser stealth. The higher damage from the Combat tree is totally worth the trade off.
As for poisons, Vile > Imp, especially after you get Shiv. The higher damage you'll do from Vile is more important than getting your poisons applied faster. You can always Shiv if you absolutely have to have that mob poisoned right away. (Although I generally don't think about it and just Muti anyways. After the 1st Muti, your target will be poisoned anyways.)
And by the way, I've only re-specced twice. And those were both for small changes. I think it cost 5g....no big deal.
Staying behind the target becomes a bigger issue in groups. Some boss fights require you to run around, and this makes it harder on a Muti rogue to get back behind him. Also, I've found that some tanks tend to fight groups of mobs bu running around, so that makes it pretty much impossible to stay behind the target. You can still spam Sinister Strike as a Muti rogue, but it's really a last resort since it doesn't do much damage (but is usually enough to keep you alive and stabbing).
All in all, I've enjoyed playing Muti. The combo point generation is really great. Right now I've got my 20 points in Combat, although I used to have them in Sub. Since having changed, I don't really miss Imp Stealth. (Although I did get Fleet Footed to make up for the speed diff...can't handle slow stealth!) I don't do PvP at all, so in PvE I just have to use Distract a bit more to make up for having lesser stealth. The higher damage from the Combat tree is totally worth the trade off.
As for poisons, Vile > Imp, especially after you get Shiv. The higher damage you'll do from Vile is more important than getting your poisons applied faster. You can always Shiv if you absolutely have to have that mob poisoned right away. (Although I generally don't think about it and just Muti anyways. After the 1st Muti, your target will be poisoned anyways.)
And by the way, I've only re-specced twice. And those were both for small changes. I think it cost 5g....no big deal.
1) 20/0/41 Shadowstep.
2) Picked it because I PvP and farm, nothing else. I love the mobility I have, and the feel of the build.
3) I wish I could have FF, Imp Sprint, Precision, and CB. Would help out a lot in arena. Other than that, I don't miss much. Mace spec, meh. DW Spec, meh. AR, meh.
1) Mut is easy to grind with. Open with CS, mut once, KS if the target isn't near dead yet, if it is, Evis. If you can't kill a mob in that time span, get better weapons.
2) Shadowstep works for 5 mans and heroics. The boss fights last maybe 30s to 1m, therefore combat doesn't get much of a foothold over the burst and damage that shs can put out in that time. Mut also works, just hope the mob isn't poison-immune.
3) Rogues never feel sneaky unless you're stealthing a quest or RPing.
4) Maces are best for PvP. Swords are made for PvE. I'd suggest you read the stickies more seriously.
5) 1 pt in Master Poisoner, and 4-5 in either Imp (ew) or Vile (yay).
You seem like an RPer, so I'm trying not to bash you for that. It just makes me laugh when you take a game so seriously.
2) Picked it because I PvP and farm, nothing else. I love the mobility I have, and the feel of the build.
3) I wish I could have FF, Imp Sprint, Precision, and CB. Would help out a lot in arena. Other than that, I don't miss much. Mace spec, meh. DW Spec, meh. AR, meh.
1) Mut is easy to grind with. Open with CS, mut once, KS if the target isn't near dead yet, if it is, Evis. If you can't kill a mob in that time span, get better weapons.
2) Shadowstep works for 5 mans and heroics. The boss fights last maybe 30s to 1m, therefore combat doesn't get much of a foothold over the burst and damage that shs can put out in that time. Mut also works, just hope the mob isn't poison-immune.
3) Rogues never feel sneaky unless you're stealthing a quest or RPing.
4) Maces are best for PvP. Swords are made for PvE. I'd suggest you read the stickies more seriously.
5) 1 pt in Master Poisoner, and 4-5 in either Imp (ew) or Vile (yay).
You seem like an RPer, so I'm trying not to bash you for that. It just makes me laugh when you take a game so seriously.
Quote:
3) I wish I could have FF, Imp Sprint, Precision, and CB.
It's easy to live without it, but you wish you had it?
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
It's easy to live without KFC, but we hunger nonetheless.
The Demea of Doom wrote:
Quote:
3) I wish I could have FF, Imp Sprint, Precision, and CB.
It's easy to live without it, but you wish you had it?
It's a wish list. I wish I had Imp Sprint, and I can live without it because I have double vanish, 2m trinket, etc, but I'd never give up 5 points in VP, Lethality, and Relentless Strikes for it.
Wow! Thanks everyone. Yes, I'm definitely an RP-er -- laugh away! That is, incidentally, my main issue with respeccing -- feels contrived and unrealistic. By paying a certain amount of money, I suddenly have completely different gifts? Yikes! My rogue trainer must be a god! (well, okay, and I'm also a perfectionist, and something about respeccing makes me feel like I had it wrong the first time *rolls eyes at self because I know that's not true*)
Anyway, all of this was very informative and helpful... except they all still seem really appealing and so I want to do everything! But I do feel better about there not being really a *bad* choice. A few comments:
I see I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I was mainly trying to decide between combat swords or mutilate with daggers, with a secret desire for more subtlety. Not discounting maces, although they are, generally less appealing to me at this moment.
For example, about roguishness: I really meant combat vs. *** or sub, not swords in particular. Of course rogues don't have to use daggers to be rogues. I feel really silly that it came out that way. I was mainly worried that having mostly combat would mean, well, mostly combat, just as having mostly healing focus = mostly healing, for a healing class. Checking to see if rogues still did sneaky things if mostly combat. Of course, I remember thinking that all warriors did was do damage (which I now know is off base a huge amount of the time), which is why I asked. What seems to be logical in English isn't always the case in a WoW-specific environment. It's not my fault that Blizzard put swords in combat and not in assassination. However, my apologies for the confusion.
The PvP/PvE weapon thing: what I remember is:
daggers (best for PvE)
swords (better than daggers for PvP, better than maces for PvE)
maces (best for PvP).
I was comparing daggers and swords when talking about PvE, not swords and maces. Sorry for the confusion there as well.
Still unsure, since it doesn't sound like mutilate is necessarily sneakier than swords. They both sound good. At the moment, I'm leaning towards swords, just because if it's harder in a group to get behind the mob... eek! I have troubles with it when soloing (I succeed *maybe* 50% of the time)... but those Mutilate responses from some of you made it really tempting. I wish I was better at actually playing. There's a part of me that feels if I go combat swords, it's settling for it due to not being a good player. Even though two swords would be really cool.
Anyway, all of this was very informative and helpful... except they all still seem really appealing and so I want to do everything! But I do feel better about there not being really a *bad* choice. A few comments:
I see I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I was mainly trying to decide between combat swords or mutilate with daggers, with a secret desire for more subtlety. Not discounting maces, although they are, generally less appealing to me at this moment.
For example, about roguishness: I really meant combat vs. *** or sub, not swords in particular. Of course rogues don't have to use daggers to be rogues. I feel really silly that it came out that way. I was mainly worried that having mostly combat would mean, well, mostly combat, just as having mostly healing focus = mostly healing, for a healing class. Checking to see if rogues still did sneaky things if mostly combat. Of course, I remember thinking that all warriors did was do damage (which I now know is off base a huge amount of the time), which is why I asked. What seems to be logical in English isn't always the case in a WoW-specific environment. It's not my fault that Blizzard put swords in combat and not in assassination. However, my apologies for the confusion.
The PvP/PvE weapon thing: what I remember is:
daggers (best for PvE)
swords (better than daggers for PvP, better than maces for PvE)
maces (best for PvP).
I was comparing daggers and swords when talking about PvE, not swords and maces. Sorry for the confusion there as well.
Still unsure, since it doesn't sound like mutilate is necessarily sneakier than swords. They both sound good. At the moment, I'm leaning towards swords, just because if it's harder in a group to get behind the mob... eek! I have troubles with it when soloing (I succeed *maybe* 50% of the time)... but those Mutilate responses from some of you made it really tempting. I wish I was better at actually playing. There's a part of me that feels if I go combat swords, it's settling for it due to not being a good player. Even though two swords would be really cool.
Quote:
The PvP/PvE weapon thing: what I remember is:
daggers (best for PvE)
swords (better than daggers for PvP, better than maces for PvE)
maces (best for PvP).
daggers (best for PvE)
swords (better than daggers for PvP, better than maces for PvE)
maces (best for PvP).
No. Swords are superior to daggers for PvE.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Vespassienne wrote:
Still unsure, since it doesn't sound like mutilate is necessarily sneakier than swords. They both sound good. At the moment, I'm leaning towards swords, just because if it's harder in a group to get behind the mob... eek! I have troubles with it when soloing (I succeed *maybe* 50% of the time)... but those Mutilate responses from some of you made it really tempting. I wish I was better at actually playing. There's a part of me that feels if I go combat swords, it's settling for it due to not being a good player. Even though two swords would be really cool.
Do you use the keyboard solely to move and turn? You could make life a hell of a lot easier for yourself if you use the keyboard to walk and a mouse for turning. Well, that's assuming you only use the keyboard at the moment. It's just that it should be easy really to get behind a stunned mob, for the most part.
As for swords vs. daggers; If a Rogue wants to be the best they can be at PvE, they should indeed go with swords. I myself have a pair. That said, you won't neccessarily be sacrificing all that much by going with Mutilate, if you think it's more in keeping with your Rogues playstyle. I know plenty of Rogues who use Mutilate accross the board, PvP and PvE, and do fine (though they're not in any hardcore raiding guilds :p). And I knew plenty who were Subtlety spec'd, back when it was a terribad tree for everything, simply because they found it was more fun.
You definitely won't be conceding anything chosing swords though. That, and the right pair can look damn fine.
He's right. and this is coming from a rogue whose been pure dagger since account creation.
Edit: i was writing down a bunch of stuff but i didnt notice one of the posts ontop that pretty much covered that aspect.
O and can anyone tell him about eh viability of hybrid specs in PVE [yes i know]? It will definately come up for him at some time and iam not experienced with them enough, other than their mainly for pvp.
Edited, Feb 15th 2008 6:15am by Tenjen
Edit: i was writing down a bunch of stuff but i didnt notice one of the posts ontop that pretty much covered that aspect.
O and can anyone tell him about eh viability of hybrid specs in PVE [yes i know]? It will definately come up for him at some time and iam not experienced with them enough, other than their mainly for pvp.
Edited, Feb 15th 2008 6:15am by Tenjen
Well if you're unsure, try out the specs in a PTR and see which you like the most.
cowwithbeans wrote:
Do you use the keyboard solely to move and turn? You could make life a hell of a lot easier for yourself if you use the keyboard to walk and a mouse for turning. Well, that's assuming you only use the keyboard at the moment. It's just that it should be easy really to get behind a stunned mob, for the most part.
*feels stupid* Stunned mobs. Of course. Now that I have sap, they'll be stunned regularly. Does gouge last long enough?
And I do use the keyboard... I read the FAQ about using the mouse, but I haven't even managed to use the mouse for *swimming*, where it's the normal way of moving. I'm always overshooting my target (usually stranglekelp, but also for quests), then being beaten on by some aquatic creature. At one point, I couldn't seem to make "dive" work, no matter how many times I tried pointing the camera angle down... I just watched myself swimming from above.
It just seems like a complete mystery to me, and way more frustrating than I think is worth, for the most point.
Edited to add: Tenjen - who's right? About what?
Edited, Feb 15th 2008 2:26pm by Vespassienne
O sorry i intended for that to be right after Demea's post.
sap isnt the best thing. You get others, like cheap shot, which stuns your target for a duration from stealth and gives you 2 combat points.
And theres kidney shot, which is in combat and uses 1 to 5 combo points to stun your target.
These stuns dont break on hit.
Sap does, and do does gouge. Gouge is in combat, it can be lenghtened by a talent in combat [the very first one] Its more than enough time if you plan your energy regeneration right. Gouge stops you from auto attacking something, so you can quickly run and turn to its back and get 1 more shot off with a backstab/muty.
Edited, Feb 16th 2008 2:20am by Tenjen
sap isnt the best thing. You get others, like cheap shot, which stuns your target for a duration from stealth and gives you 2 combat points.
And theres kidney shot, which is in combat and uses 1 to 5 combo points to stun your target.
These stuns dont break on hit.
Sap does, and do does gouge. Gouge is in combat, it can be lenghtened by a talent in combat [the very first one] Its more than enough time if you plan your energy regeneration right. Gouge stops you from auto attacking something, so you can quickly run and turn to its back and get 1 more shot off with a backstab/muty.
Edited, Feb 16th 2008 2:20am by Tenjen
Okay, thanks! And yes, I don't have any of those other stuns yet. Just hit 12. I never thought of that use for gouge yet -- so far, I've been using it mainly to get additional mobs out of the way so I can focus on the one I'm fighting. I'll definitely have to try that.
I will also have to see about the PTR. That might indeed be the best way to find out.
I will also have to see about the PTR. That might indeed be the best way to find out.
Scholar
19 posts
Like a few people said above, swords are definately best for PvE. Mainly because they do more damage, and good daggers are REALLY hard to find (especially pre-BC). That said, I've always used daggers (Muti), so it works too....just won't do the highest damage. So really, if you're not super-concerned about topping the damage chart (which it seems like you're not), it'll just be a matter of personal preference.
If you want a more RP-style of play, you may enjoy Shadowstep the best. I don't have any experience in this spec, but it seems the sneakiest to me. I believe it is one of the lowest-damage specs, but should still be a viable leveling build. (Although I don't know how well it plays in lower levels before you get the Shadowstep talent.)
As for not playing well....you'll get better with practice! Once you get more used to the controls, it'll be like second nature. And yes, sap and gouge are both good for getting a mob off you for a period of time. You can also gouge and bandage (or later when you get Blind, use that to gain time to bandage as well). Although I never use those 2 since I almost always use Deadly Poison and DoTs break both Gouge and Blind. Playing as Muti, when playing solo, I open with Cheap Shot (stun), Mutilate, Kidney Shot (second stun, usually before Cheap Shot breaks), Mutilate, Slice and Dice....then if the mobs not dead it'll turn around and start wailing on me, so I finish off with Sinister Strike & Eviserate (or Envenom if the situation warrents) till it's dead. (Playing in groups, it's a bit different since you're usually not supposed to stun the mobs since it interferes with the tank's rage.)
You may also want to consider the fact that even though Combat swords is the best levling spec (and pretty much the best damage spec), many people find it boring. This seems like it may be a factor for you. If you decide you want to use swords, you can't go Mutilate (requires daggers), but I believe swords work well for Shadowstep. I've heard it said that Shadowstep daggers is not very good at all.
If you want a more RP-style of play, you may enjoy Shadowstep the best. I don't have any experience in this spec, but it seems the sneakiest to me. I believe it is one of the lowest-damage specs, but should still be a viable leveling build. (Although I don't know how well it plays in lower levels before you get the Shadowstep talent.)
As for not playing well....you'll get better with practice! Once you get more used to the controls, it'll be like second nature. And yes, sap and gouge are both good for getting a mob off you for a period of time. You can also gouge and bandage (or later when you get Blind, use that to gain time to bandage as well). Although I never use those 2 since I almost always use Deadly Poison and DoTs break both Gouge and Blind. Playing as Muti, when playing solo, I open with Cheap Shot (stun), Mutilate, Kidney Shot (second stun, usually before Cheap Shot breaks), Mutilate, Slice and Dice....then if the mobs not dead it'll turn around and start wailing on me, so I finish off with Sinister Strike & Eviserate (or Envenom if the situation warrents) till it's dead. (Playing in groups, it's a bit different since you're usually not supposed to stun the mobs since it interferes with the tank's rage.)
You may also want to consider the fact that even though Combat swords is the best levling spec (and pretty much the best damage spec), many people find it boring. This seems like it may be a factor for you. If you decide you want to use swords, you can't go Mutilate (requires daggers), but I believe swords work well for Shadowstep. I've heard it said that Shadowstep daggers is not very good at all.
Thanks!
Hearing that Combat swords might be boring is definitely useful, and I will say that when I had a sword and a dagger, and put my sword in the main hand... well, that didn't last very long. Even though I don't get behind the target as easily, I liked having the *choice* of being able to backstab if I *was* behind the target. Not only that, but the dagger is actually better at the moment. I got it with my priest from Ragefire Chasm, while the sword is level 5.
Swords might be a foregone conclusion, though, at least for awhile, since my friend just sent me two good swords. And again, I really like the idea of dual wielding swords anyway... the problem, as always, is that *everything* sounds good!
Shadowstep with swords does sound interesting. Before reading your post, I had been thinking of going 22/39/0 to get both points in Quick Recovery (since I am anticipating grouping a lot starting around level 20 and am *used* to playing a priest in a group, so the thought of making it easier for the healer is very appealing), but I was pining over Ghostly Strike, which sounds pretty nifty (but I forgot what the FAQ said about it). I'd have to give up Quick Recovery, though, if I wanted to get all the way to Shadowstep.
Rage probably won't be an issue, since the tank in our group would be a paladin, not a warrior. I remember the same issue for the use of the Power Word: Shield as a priest, so I know what you're talking about.
Hearing that Combat swords might be boring is definitely useful, and I will say that when I had a sword and a dagger, and put my sword in the main hand... well, that didn't last very long. Even though I don't get behind the target as easily, I liked having the *choice* of being able to backstab if I *was* behind the target. Not only that, but the dagger is actually better at the moment. I got it with my priest from Ragefire Chasm, while the sword is level 5.
Swords might be a foregone conclusion, though, at least for awhile, since my friend just sent me two good swords. And again, I really like the idea of dual wielding swords anyway... the problem, as always, is that *everything* sounds good!
Shadowstep with swords does sound interesting. Before reading your post, I had been thinking of going 22/39/0 to get both points in Quick Recovery (since I am anticipating grouping a lot starting around level 20 and am *used* to playing a priest in a group, so the thought of making it easier for the healer is very appealing), but I was pining over Ghostly Strike, which sounds pretty nifty (but I forgot what the FAQ said about it). I'd have to give up Quick Recovery, though, if I wanted to get all the way to Shadowstep.
Rage probably won't be an issue, since the tank in our group would be a paladin, not a warrior. I remember the same issue for the use of the Power Word: Shield as a priest, so I know what you're talking about.
14 posts
1.) For PvE, I go 20/41 combat swords. For PvP, Mutilate, favoring heavy assassin tree (49/0/12).
2.) I picked combat swords, because there is really no other way. Any other build is gimping your damage and thus holding the raid back.
For Mutilate, Im not sure, I just love the play style. Sometimes it can be difficult to play, but nonetheless very fun and keeps you on your feet.
3.) Honestly, I wouldn't change much. Fix Vanish mostly. If you are losing or getting kited, it you're own fault! Shiv crippling and continue on! Really nothing wrong with PvE imo.
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1.) Yes, Mutilate is great for soloing and 5 mans. Great control and insane combo points!
2.) Anything sub really isnt viable for PvE.
3.) No, I don't feel like a rogue when I use swords. Just do it for the dps.
4.) Swords = godly in PvE. Simply the best.
5.) Imo, heavy poisons are important in PvP. Resisting other rogue poisons and applying them with ease is very nice, especially as mutilate. You need to be able to move fast and get behind your target.
If you want top damage, go combat swords, end of story!
Good luck!
2.) I picked combat swords, because there is really no other way. Any other build is gimping your damage and thus holding the raid back.
For Mutilate, Im not sure, I just love the play style. Sometimes it can be difficult to play, but nonetheless very fun and keeps you on your feet.
3.) Honestly, I wouldn't change much. Fix Vanish mostly. If you are losing or getting kited, it you're own fault! Shiv crippling and continue on! Really nothing wrong with PvE imo.
-----------
1.) Yes, Mutilate is great for soloing and 5 mans. Great control and insane combo points!
2.) Anything sub really isnt viable for PvE.
3.) No, I don't feel like a rogue when I use swords. Just do it for the dps.
4.) Swords = godly in PvE. Simply the best.
5.) Imo, heavy poisons are important in PvP. Resisting other rogue poisons and applying them with ease is very nice, especially as mutilate. You need to be able to move fast and get behind your target.
If you want top damage, go combat swords, end of story!
Good luck!
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