It seems that Expose Armor is most viable as a finisher when combined with a lot of melee DPS - but less useful in a traditional RMP, where 50% of your damage is magical.
This issue I'm having is that with premeditation, I have more CP's than I know what to do with in the opening. If I open with CS, I'd most likely build to 5CP's quickly regardless. And if I CS/EA - I won't be able to build enough CP's for a strong KS in the initial lock down.
I can see how against mages, you'd premed, garrotte, shiv, ShS the blink and land a beautiful 5pt kidney shot...I don't see room for an EA.
Suppose we focus fire on a priest, I can, CS, build CP's, KS, then kick and gouge their casts while my mage nukes them...
I just don't see where Premed or EA fit in, most cases.
I can see how it'd be worth it with a warrior/rogue/X team - where, as tyr pointed out, the rogue can really set up a target for a brutal hit from the warrior.
Any thoughts?
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Expose Armor & Premed with ShSRogue/Mage/PriestFollow
My opinion follows. My opinion includes having never set foot in the arena or raided.
As Shstep (specced 2/2 imp. EA), I love to premed -> CS -> hemo (if no initiative proc) -> 5 pt EA.
I much prefer to put up a 5 pt imp. EA on a clothie, getting them down to zero armor for 30 seconds. I never like going to KS first, because once the KS expires, you have nothing to show for it but whatever damage you dropped during the stun. 5 pt EA continues to pay off. 30 seconds is a long time in a pvp fight.
Since it was a premed to 5 points, and Relentless is 100% to proc, you still have plenty of energy to dump on top of that 5 pt EA.
Compared to you I am a total noob. Take it for what its worth.
As Shstep (specced 2/2 imp. EA), I love to premed -> CS -> hemo (if no initiative proc) -> 5 pt EA.
I much prefer to put up a 5 pt imp. EA on a clothie, getting them down to zero armor for 30 seconds. I never like going to KS first, because once the KS expires, you have nothing to show for it but whatever damage you dropped during the stun. 5 pt EA continues to pay off. 30 seconds is a long time in a pvp fight.
Since it was a premed to 5 points, and Relentless is 100% to proc, you still have plenty of energy to dump on top of that 5 pt EA.
Compared to you I am a total noob. Take it for what its worth.
Well, the opening is a balance act between what you can throw in and what you let them slip out. In the case of a priest, I'd rather keep them locked down for longer so that they couldn't remove a polymorph on one of their team members.
But you raise a good point though - 30 seconds is a lifetime...so against a Shaman, maybe I'd use it instead of a KS initially.
But you raise a good point though - 30 seconds is a lifetime...so against a Shaman, maybe I'd use it instead of a KS initially.
Most smart mages wont blink out of Cheapshot anyway. As you and I know you can totally tear into a mage during a KS, especially as a Muti rogue. A smart mage will save the Blink for a KS, and use Ice Block to stop the blind.
The ideal Mage - Rogue fight from a rogues point of view is:
Cheapshot>*Blink*>KS>*Iceblock*>Blind-Sap - Restart the fight.
Of course without the Iceblock you would pretty much have a dead mage here. But the blind-sap would force the mage into blowing his cold snap early. You still probably have Sprint & prep at hand (assuming you had to Blind-Vanish-Sap). This gives you a massive edge in the cooldown fight.
A bad situation for us would be something like:
Cheapshot>*Water elemental* + *Frost Nova*>Kidneyshot>*Blink*>Blind> *Iceblock*
This is usually the point when you are ******* The mage can sit in his Iceblock & because he already has his water elemental out you can't vanish since he will be expecting it & will just drop a long range frost nova ontop of you as soon as he sees the vanish animation. If he still has his Trinket up you are in an even worse situation.
The point I'm getting at is that against a bad mage a stunlock rushdown approach is far more effective since they won't know how to handle it.
Against an experience frost mage the chances are that your Expose armor will do far more damage. By leaving stuns out of your Move sequence entirely the mage is much less likely to be using iceblock to wait you out. If you stick close to him with sprint up, being able to mash away at Hemo will probably yeild more dps since you aren't trying to control him in a situation where he can out manouve/outlast you and he still has two other team mates who will likely be beating on you the whole time anyway.
I have a fair amount of 1v1 frost mage experience so I can vouch for the whole move sequence thing. As for how it works i'm not too sure about 3v3 settings but maybe what i've said has some truth to it. Who knows?
The ideal Mage - Rogue fight from a rogues point of view is:
Cheapshot>*Blink*>KS>*Iceblock*>Blind-Sap - Restart the fight.
Of course without the Iceblock you would pretty much have a dead mage here. But the blind-sap would force the mage into blowing his cold snap early. You still probably have Sprint & prep at hand (assuming you had to Blind-Vanish-Sap). This gives you a massive edge in the cooldown fight.
A bad situation for us would be something like:
Cheapshot>*Water elemental* + *Frost Nova*>Kidneyshot>*Blink*>Blind> *Iceblock*
This is usually the point when you are ******* The mage can sit in his Iceblock & because he already has his water elemental out you can't vanish since he will be expecting it & will just drop a long range frost nova ontop of you as soon as he sees the vanish animation. If he still has his Trinket up you are in an even worse situation.
The point I'm getting at is that against a bad mage a stunlock rushdown approach is far more effective since they won't know how to handle it.
Against an experience frost mage the chances are that your Expose armor will do far more damage. By leaving stuns out of your Move sequence entirely the mage is much less likely to be using iceblock to wait you out. If you stick close to him with sprint up, being able to mash away at Hemo will probably yeild more dps since you aren't trying to control him in a situation where he can out manouve/outlast you and he still has two other team mates who will likely be beating on you the whole time anyway.
I have a fair amount of 1v1 frost mage experience so I can vouch for the whole move sequence thing. As for how it works i'm not too sure about 3v3 settings but maybe what i've said has some truth to it. Who knows?
Open on a mage with CS? What are you, new?
How to beat a mage as Shadowstep:
Sap, Premed, Garrotte, Shiv - Keep your combo points for the inevitable blink.
After blink, ShS, five point kidney, hemo until they ice block.
during Ice block, blind the water elemental, bandage (a total ******* move but hilarious and effective nonetheless), /poke, restealth and try to get out of nova range.
If he doesn't nova you out of stealth, repeat the above steps.
If he does, CloS, Sprint, shiv, hemo/eviscerate until dead.
How to beat a mage as Shadowstep:
Sap, Premed, Garrotte, Shiv - Keep your combo points for the inevitable blink.
After blink, ShS, five point kidney, hemo until they ice block.
during Ice block, blind the water elemental, bandage (a total ******* move but hilarious and effective nonetheless), /poke, restealth and try to get out of nova range.
If he doesn't nova you out of stealth, repeat the above steps.
If he does, CloS, Sprint, shiv, hemo/eviscerate until dead.
I have no idea why any mage would blink out of crippling poison.
A simple frost nova would solve that problem.
I have always used cheapshot because sometimes it will force the mage to blink. You should try it sometime. As a ShS rogue being able to start the fight with Premed>Cheapshot for 5 combo points is more to my style than with garrote. The only reason I don't like garrote is because I usually use blind after they blink my Kidneyshot. If I use garrote as my opener this means I now can't blind.
Blind will 9/10 force them to Iceblock which will in turn force them to use Cold snap.
I suppose we just have different styles of rushdown, I like to save my garrote for when I have already used blind, this way there is no risk of me being cornered in a situation where I need to use blind or die... except I have garrote up.
This never really cropped up for me as an issue when I did 2v2 since Usually my blind was saved for Blind>Sap.
This really shouldn't work against anyone with a brain. The Ele works as the same way as a hunter's pet. You *can* blind him & restealth, but as soon as blind ends the elemental will send a frostbolt at you unless you are in a duel & you can run away far enough for you to leave its detection range. If you don't get away far enough then as soon as blind ends you can bet that a long-range frost nova will be flying in your direction.
If you try to bandage whilst the ele is blinded and the mage is in Iceblock he deserves to lose. Most of them will just drop block and whip you with their CoC. If they sit there and watch you bandage & restealth they are truly idiotic. Soon as block drops you can bet your **** there will be an arcane explosion on its way to break your stealth.
There just simply isn't enough time to do all that. In 2v2 or 3v3 do you think his team mates are just going to stand there and watch you bandage & reastealth?
A simple frost nova would solve that problem.
I have always used cheapshot because sometimes it will force the mage to blink. You should try it sometime. As a ShS rogue being able to start the fight with Premed>Cheapshot for 5 combo points is more to my style than with garrote. The only reason I don't like garrote is because I usually use blind after they blink my Kidneyshot. If I use garrote as my opener this means I now can't blind.
Blind will 9/10 force them to Iceblock which will in turn force them to use Cold snap.
I suppose we just have different styles of rushdown, I like to save my garrote for when I have already used blind, this way there is no risk of me being cornered in a situation where I need to use blind or die... except I have garrote up.
This never really cropped up for me as an issue when I did 2v2 since Usually my blind was saved for Blind>Sap.
Quote:
also: blind the water elemental, bandage (a total @#%^ move but hilarious and effective nonetheless), /poke, restealth and try to get out of nova range.
This really shouldn't work against anyone with a brain. The Ele works as the same way as a hunter's pet. You *can* blind him & restealth, but as soon as blind ends the elemental will send a frostbolt at you unless you are in a duel & you can run away far enough for you to leave its detection range. If you don't get away far enough then as soon as blind ends you can bet that a long-range frost nova will be flying in your direction.
If you try to bandage whilst the ele is blinded and the mage is in Iceblock he deserves to lose. Most of them will just drop block and whip you with their CoC. If they sit there and watch you bandage & restealth they are truly idiotic. Soon as block drops you can bet your **** there will be an arcane explosion on its way to break your stealth.
There just simply isn't enough time to do all that. In 2v2 or 3v3 do you think his team mates are just going to stand there and watch you bandage & reastealth?
Well, yes, in 3v3 of course I wouldn't play it like that...but you brought up dueling.
Garrotte is a three second silence, don't forget. you shiv crippling because it's a fast combo point and it's easier to stay on them until you see what their next move is. Heh, shiv is not meant to force a blink - that's silly. But against a mage, you want crippling up as much as possible, for obvious reasons.
So in the beginning of the fight, they're silenced, crippled, and taking damage fast. The mage's knee-jerk reaction nine out of ten times, is to spam blink...which is effective against everything BUT a ShS rogue.
You save your KS for after the blink, because otherwise it's wasted.
You force the blink by frontloading a bunch of damage. When they blink, and you lolstep KS SMASH, they're going to die unless they iceblock and let their pet soften you up.
Blind pet. Bandage. restealth.
And yes, there's a pretty damn good chance they'll just arcane asplode or nova or whatever else to pull you right back out of stealth. But sometimes you get lucky.
If they break their own iceblock, it doesn't make them any less screwed. You still have CloS and trinket ready to break any snares - which is plenty IF YOU KEEP CRIPPLING UP.
As an alternative, when they iceblock you can go eat the elemental, and blind the mage once he comes out. Maybe even get a few ticks of first aid after the ele drops but blind is still up.
Or start in on the ele, blind the mage, finish the ele, vanish sap the mage, bandage, restealth.
As ShS, mages are not hard.
As muti though...good luck.
Edited, Feb 14th 2008 11:57am by EonSprinter
Garrotte is a three second silence, don't forget. you shiv crippling because it's a fast combo point and it's easier to stay on them until you see what their next move is. Heh, shiv is not meant to force a blink - that's silly. But against a mage, you want crippling up as much as possible, for obvious reasons.
So in the beginning of the fight, they're silenced, crippled, and taking damage fast. The mage's knee-jerk reaction nine out of ten times, is to spam blink...which is effective against everything BUT a ShS rogue.
You save your KS for after the blink, because otherwise it's wasted.
You force the blink by frontloading a bunch of damage. When they blink, and you lolstep KS SMASH, they're going to die unless they iceblock and let their pet soften you up.
Blind pet. Bandage. restealth.
And yes, there's a pretty damn good chance they'll just arcane asplode or nova or whatever else to pull you right back out of stealth. But sometimes you get lucky.
If they break their own iceblock, it doesn't make them any less screwed. You still have CloS and trinket ready to break any snares - which is plenty IF YOU KEEP CRIPPLING UP.
As an alternative, when they iceblock you can go eat the elemental, and blind the mage once he comes out. Maybe even get a few ticks of first aid after the ele drops but blind is still up.
Or start in on the ele, blind the mage, finish the ele, vanish sap the mage, bandage, restealth.
As ShS, mages are not hard.
As muti though...good luck.
Edited, Feb 14th 2008 11:57am by EonSprinter
Just a quick note, Their ele only has about 4k hp, it doesnt scale like hunter or warlock pets. It also doesn't have any resil, so about 2-3 good hemos will destroy it, alowing you to vanish or w/e you like.
Pity killing their ele only really works against nab mages :<
Pity killing their ele only really works against nab mages :<
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