i think that judgement of light, instead of its current effect, should have a chance effect to grant 1 rage pt. wait that is a horrible idea and doesn't make sense.
this is the kind of thinking that should have went into SotC/JotC. my seal grants me AP, yet my judgement grants me holy spell dmg. wtf, why? wanna make it viable for others? lets tack on some invisible +dmg instead of modifying the seal itself.
does blizzard use "Jump to Conclusions" for their Ret ideas? gawd, all we really want is our damn stapler.
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SotC has always bugged me. they way the seal works is complete trash. the judgment itself doesnt make any sence when you look at the Seal's effect . . . and the talented Improvement, despite its usefullness, makes no sense either. . .
at first i thought i could use the seal vs magic immune mobs, but then i realized that the holy damage from SoB and SoC isnt really flagged as magic.
so as of now, the only thing i have ever figured for SotC is to use it to skill up weapons. . . .
at first i thought i could use the seal vs magic immune mobs, but then i realized that the holy damage from SoB and SoC isnt really flagged as magic.
so as of now, the only thing i have ever figured for SotC is to use it to skill up weapons. . . .
I've never quite understood SotC either, there doesn't seem to be a complete set of reasoning behind it.
Increased attack speed, but reduced damage... ok that's a balancing factor that makes sense, i suppose. It's usefulness isn't very clear, and situational at best.
Now at the same time as it's reducing damage, it's also increasing attack power. What, why? Also, the judgment is completely unrelated to the effects of the seal. This makes the whole thing make even less sense, and it's intended usefulness even less clear.
In practice it becomes a seal that is only good for it's judgment. If that was the intent behind it's creation, which seems silly, then why bother with all the strange effects of the seal itself?
/boggle
Increased attack speed, but reduced damage... ok that's a balancing factor that makes sense, i suppose. It's usefulness isn't very clear, and situational at best.
Now at the same time as it's reducing damage, it's also increasing attack power. What, why? Also, the judgment is completely unrelated to the effects of the seal. This makes the whole thing make even less sense, and it's intended usefulness even less clear.
In practice it becomes a seal that is only good for it's judgment. If that was the intent behind it's creation, which seems silly, then why bother with all the strange effects of the seal itself?
/boggle
Yeah, it is a weird one. It does actually increase your DPS when you use it (the attack power and speed increase end up being enough to increase the decreased damage), but not enough to use it for anything other than the judgement and skilling up weapons. Well, and if you're in a weird mood, it lets you get a little bit more out of reckoning + 2-hander (which I was only doing to skill it up for fighting casters).
Just some thoughts on this:
As for the use of the seal, isn't it true that with 40% added attack speed you get 40% more procs of all those procs per minute enchantments/judgements/buffs-on-proc? I think it does, which makes it a good seal for regaining more health/mana per minute (with judged light/wisdom) or to have (for example) the crusader enchantment procced more often etc?
As for the logical "synergy"(?) between the seal and its judgement:
- improvement talents are in the ret tree, so it is (probably) intended to be a talent for Retadins
- ret is all about procs and lacks in the department of survival or size of the mana pool
- so perhaps it is meant to be used as such: when needed, judge light/wisdom, switch to seal of the crusader, regain health/mana at 40% increased rate, when you have enough, judge it and put up your seal of command again.
- or perhaps even (I don't think so though, this probably is BS) you can use judged SotC, seal SotC and when something that you really want to proc actually procced (40% faster chance), switch to seal of command.
As for the use of the seal, isn't it true that with 40% added attack speed you get 40% more procs of all those procs per minute enchantments/judgements/buffs-on-proc? I think it does, which makes it a good seal for regaining more health/mana per minute (with judged light/wisdom) or to have (for example) the crusader enchantment procced more often etc?
As for the logical "synergy"(?) between the seal and its judgement:
- improvement talents are in the ret tree, so it is (probably) intended to be a talent for Retadins
- ret is all about procs and lacks in the department of survival or size of the mana pool
- so perhaps it is meant to be used as such: when needed, judge light/wisdom, switch to seal of the crusader, regain health/mana at 40% increased rate, when you have enough, judge it and put up your seal of command again.
- or perhaps even (I don't think so though, this probably is BS) you can use judged SotC, seal SotC and when something that you really want to proc actually procced (40% faster chance), switch to seal of command.
Quote:
As for the use of the seal, isn't it true that with 40% added attack speed you get 40% more procs of all those procs per minute enchantments/judgements/buffs-on-proc?
Nope... I know Seals have a set "proc per minute" rate which means; they will proc more often (higher percentage of hits) with a slower weapon. This is one reason to use a slow 2-hander for SoC. And... they will proc less often (lower percentage of hits) when you swing a faster weapon.
So; for JoL/JoW, you will have almost a 100% proc rate with a very slow 2-hander, if you use SotC you will reduce the proc rate and also loose out on the added chance to proc by having either SoL/SoJ on instead.
I never use SotC, and only judge it when I'm tanking a boss that might take awhile. Even then... I might choose JoW.
Kz
KZ, I do understand the PPM mechanics (see below). I was merely under the impression (as is with all haste effects to my understanding) that the PPM (proc chance per swing is more accurate) are determined considering the BASE weapon speed. Thus a haste effect of 40% added swing speed, shouldn't that translate to a 40% increased number of "real" procs every minute?
Example:
- Weapon with base speed 2.0 (for sake of argument)
- Effect on proc with a Blizzard base of 6 procs per minute
- Without haste effects, this would translate to a 2*6/60=20% chance per swing to proc
My question now is: isn't it true that if you get a 40% haste effect, your 20% chance per swing stays the same (based on base weapon speed) but you swing every 0.6*2=1.2 seconds instead of every 2 seconds, meaning that your EXPECTED procs per minute at that speed is 20%*60/1.2=10 instead of the original 6.
If the chance to proc based on the Blizzard base PPM is recalculated after you get a haste effect (thus lowering the 20% to match an expected 6 procs per minute again)... then I rest my case.
Example:
- Weapon with base speed 2.0 (for sake of argument)
- Effect on proc with a Blizzard base of 6 procs per minute
- Without haste effects, this would translate to a 2*6/60=20% chance per swing to proc
My question now is: isn't it true that if you get a 40% haste effect, your 20% chance per swing stays the same (based on base weapon speed) but you swing every 0.6*2=1.2 seconds instead of every 2 seconds, meaning that your EXPECTED procs per minute at that speed is 20%*60/1.2=10 instead of the original 6.
If the chance to proc based on the Blizzard base PPM is recalculated after you get a haste effect (thus lowering the 20% to match an expected 6 procs per minute again)... then I rest my case.
Immunois:
I don't have the solid data to prove one way or another, but I'm sure someone has & put it in a sticky at some time (I've read it somewhere...). My post is also based on experience from trying that method & not liking the returns. But that's just for judgments, I can't speak for enchants or other proc effects.
I always ended up going back to the "judge one - re-apply one" method. If I realy needed mana, then I would: JoW+SoW with a 1-hander, and vice-versa for JoL/SoL. Swiching to a 1-hander helps keep the mob alive long enough to fill my mana bar up.
I could be wrong but... if it was "worth" it I'm sure it would be all over the stickies as a stratagy while grinding/grouping/raiding/ect... and it's not ; ;
Believe me though, I wish it was a good seal lol.
IMO they should combine Seal of Justice and Seal of the Crusader, along with the judgment effects. Then remove deminishing returns from the stun & it might just become handy for anyone to use.
Kz
I don't have the solid data to prove one way or another, but I'm sure someone has & put it in a sticky at some time (I've read it somewhere...). My post is also based on experience from trying that method & not liking the returns. But that's just for judgments, I can't speak for enchants or other proc effects.
I always ended up going back to the "judge one - re-apply one" method. If I realy needed mana, then I would: JoW+SoW with a 1-hander, and vice-versa for JoL/SoL. Swiching to a 1-hander helps keep the mob alive long enough to fill my mana bar up.
I could be wrong but... if it was "worth" it I'm sure it would be all over the stickies as a stratagy while grinding/grouping/raiding/ect... and it's not ; ;
Believe me though, I wish it was a good seal lol.
IMO they should combine Seal of Justice and Seal of the Crusader, along with the judgment effects. Then remove deminishing returns from the stun & it might just become handy for anyone to use.
Kz
Killzon, don't understand me wrong, I never use SotC myself (except for weapon skillups). I was merely looking for SOME use of it.
I do agree with you that whatever use there might be, it must not give enough return to be actually worth using it, otherwise it would be common knowledge.
Oh well, back to the drawing board it seems.
*fumbles with the SotC-useful-in-ANY-way?-notes and discards them straight into his archive, very much resembling his garbage bin*
I do agree with you that whatever use there might be, it must not give enough return to be actually worth using it, otherwise it would be common knowledge.
Oh well, back to the drawing board it seems.
*fumbles with the SotC-useful-in-ANY-way?-notes and discards them straight into his archive, very much resembling his garbage bin*
I think I understand what you're trying to say Immunios, but I highly doubt that's the case. With 40% haste you should see more procs simply because of the fact that you're swinging more, but I highly doubt haste has any direct bearing on the standard PPM figure. I would still expect it to be a 42% (I think that's the number if I remember correctly) proc chance on all auto-attack swings.
As for the OT: I understand what you're saying tommy, but you have to remember, while Imp. SotC may be in the Ret tree, SotC is a Paladin spell, not a Retribution talent. Any non-Ret Paladin is going to get far more mileage out of the holy spell damage increase than an AP increase.
This whole conversion of Ret Pallies from spell damage to AP is a fairly recent movement. I think it's going in the right direction, but it's a pretty radical change and will take some time for Blizzard to fully take it into account and work it into the game. At the very least you all still need to remember that Retribution is a spec in a hybrid class, and probably the least overall representative of said class, so we don't want to change too many mechanics too hastily.
As for the OT: I understand what you're saying tommy, but you have to remember, while Imp. SotC may be in the Ret tree, SotC is a Paladin spell, not a Retribution talent. Any non-Ret Paladin is going to get far more mileage out of the holy spell damage increase than an AP increase.
This whole conversion of Ret Pallies from spell damage to AP is a fairly recent movement. I think it's going in the right direction, but it's a pretty radical change and will take some time for Blizzard to fully take it into account and work it into the game. At the very least you all still need to remember that Retribution is a spec in a hybrid class, and probably the least overall representative of said class, so we don't want to change too many mechanics too hastily.
gaudion wrote:
I think I understand what you're trying to say Immunios, but I highly doubt that's the case. With 40% haste you should see more procs simply because of the fact that you're swinging more, but I highly doubt haste has any direct bearing on the standard PPM figure. I would still expect it to be a 42% (I think that's the number if I remember correctly) proc chance on all auto-attack swings.
I am not sure you do, because I do not understand this to be honest. You say with 40% haste you should see more procs simply because of the fact that you're swinging more. But if this is the case, there IS an advantage of using SotC, so that can't be what you want to tell me...
One more try from another perspective, which is combined in 1 question (I HOPE /smile):
*************************
Is the proc chance per hit of any PPM-proccable(?), that is calculated by the formula:
proc chance per hit = coded procs per minute by blizzard * weapon speed / 60
calculated with the BASE weapon speed or with the INCREASED weapon speed?
*************************
To elaborate a bit:
The REAL number of procs per minute are:
REAL procs per minute = proc chance * swings per minute
Now, if the answer to the above question is INCREASED weapon speed, assuming a 2.0 speed weapon (but any will do), haste of 40% and a coded procs per minute by blizzard of 6 (but any will do), then the above equates to:
proc chance per hit = 6 * (2.0*60%) / 60 = 12% per hit
REAL procs per minute = 12% * 60 / (2.0*60%) = 6
which means, no gaining procs from haste (always 6 per minute real procs).
If the answer to the above question is BASE weapon speed, assuming a 2.0 speed weapen, hast of 40% and a coded procs per minute by blizzard of 6, then the above equates to:
proc chance per hit = 6 * (2.0) / 60 = 20% per hit
REAL procs per minute = 20% * 60 / (2.0*60%) = 10
which means 4 extra hits per minute due to the haste!
Now tell me, which one is true? /smile
Quote:
They added a normalized weapon speed (1.7 for daggers, 2.4 for 1h weps, 3.3 for 2h weps) so that fast, high dps weapons weren't outdone by slow, low dps weapons merely because of speed. Seal of Command (and WindFury) were not normalized, and retain their weapon speed.
SoC is normalized on proccing about 7 times per minute. This means that you get more out of it with a high top end damage weapon (each extra swing will mean more). As a side effect, is also makes it more reliable, as the slower the weapon, the higher the chance to proc (but still only about 7 times per minute). The formula for SoC proc rate is: [ 7 / ( 60 / Weapon Speed )
So a 2.0 speed weapon would proc 23.33% of the time [ 7 / (60 / 2) ]. A 3.0 speed weapon would proc 35% of the time [ 7 / (60 / 3) ]. The nice slow 3.8 speeds have a ~44% chance to proc [ 7 / (60 / 3.8) ].
SoC is normalized on proccing about 7 times per minute. This means that you get more out of it with a high top end damage weapon (each extra swing will mean more). As a side effect, is also makes it more reliable, as the slower the weapon, the higher the chance to proc (but still only about 7 times per minute). The formula for SoC proc rate is: [ 7 / ( 60 / Weapon Speed )
So a 2.0 speed weapon would proc 23.33% of the time [ 7 / (60 / 2) ]. A 3.0 speed weapon would proc 35% of the time [ 7 / (60 / 3) ]. The nice slow 3.8 speeds have a ~44% chance to proc [ 7 / (60 / 3.8) ].
taken from wowwiki.
this would suggest that a PPM such as JoW would NOT gain an advantage from any haste buffs, as a 1H is normallized at 2.4, etc. however SoC does get bonuses..ie windfury and +haste.
Quote:
As for the OT: I understand what you're saying tommy, but you have to remember, while Imp. SotC may be in the Ret tree, SotC is a Paladin spell, not a Retribution talent. Any non-Ret Paladin is going to get far more mileage out of the holy spell damage increase than an AP increase.
good point. still leaves the seal vs judgement bafoonery unanswered. maybe change SotC to just AP and add a spell seal to Holy(Seal of the Divine)? or vice versa but make SoC a globally trained spell.
You seem to be a little unclear on how the PPM system works, Immunious.
SoC is set to proc an average of seven times a minute. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that no matter what speed you swing it that you're going to see an exact average of seven procs in any 60-second period. The game doesn't keep track of 60-second periods. What it basically boils down to is that the mechanic is in place to assign a % chance to proc based on your weapon speed. Simply put, faster weapons have lower chance to proc per swing and slower weapons have a higher chance.
There is no way to alter the actual PPM system (and there's no evidence to support that in that section you pulled from wowwiki either, tommy), but you can change the actual number of procs you can see over time with haste rating as long the PPM system is unaffected by haste rating and continues to operate off of the base swing speed of the weapon. I have no idea whether or not this is true myself.
Please read this next part carefully, I'd rather not have to go over it again:
Assuming the PPM system is unaltered by haste rating, you can assume that a 3.60 speed weapon is always going to have a little over a 40% chance to proc SoC. From there, it's just common sense. A person swinging more times within a 60-second period is obviously going to proc SoC more than someone who isn't swinging as often; thus, an obvious increase in the number of SoC procs you would see.
EDIT: After reading over your post again, I think you may be even more confused than I initially thought you were.
You can't have SotC and SoC active at the same time. They're both seals. JotC doesn't give you the attack speed increase that SotC does.
Edited, Feb 13th 2008 2:13pm by Gaudion
SoC is set to proc an average of seven times a minute. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that no matter what speed you swing it that you're going to see an exact average of seven procs in any 60-second period. The game doesn't keep track of 60-second periods. What it basically boils down to is that the mechanic is in place to assign a % chance to proc based on your weapon speed. Simply put, faster weapons have lower chance to proc per swing and slower weapons have a higher chance.
There is no way to alter the actual PPM system (and there's no evidence to support that in that section you pulled from wowwiki either, tommy), but you can change the actual number of procs you can see over time with haste rating as long the PPM system is unaffected by haste rating and continues to operate off of the base swing speed of the weapon. I have no idea whether or not this is true myself.
Please read this next part carefully, I'd rather not have to go over it again:
Assuming the PPM system is unaltered by haste rating, you can assume that a 3.60 speed weapon is always going to have a little over a 40% chance to proc SoC. From there, it's just common sense. A person swinging more times within a 60-second period is obviously going to proc SoC more than someone who isn't swinging as often; thus, an obvious increase in the number of SoC procs you would see.
EDIT: After reading over your post again, I think you may be even more confused than I initially thought you were.
Immunios wrote:
I am not sure you do, because I do not understand this to be honest. You say with 40% haste you should see more procs simply because of the fact that you're swinging more. But if this is the case, there IS an advantage of using SotC, so that can't be what you want to tell me...
You can't have SotC and SoC active at the same time. They're both seals. JotC doesn't give you the attack speed increase that SotC does.
Edited, Feb 13th 2008 2:13pm by Gaudion
Gaudion, I think you are more or less saying the same as I do.
I should have renamed REAL procs per minute to AVERAGE NUMBER of procs per minute, because indeed the system doesn't count 60 secs that is something I am fully aware of.
Gaudion, I think I never suggested that two seals could be used at the same time, I called "any PPM-proccable" (again, this can't be a word, seriously /smile) meaning for example fiery, weapon special procs, maybe even judgements that have a proc chance per minute.
To recap what I did: trying to find ANY use of SotC outside of weapon skillups. Whatever use there might be, it can't be worth it to actually USE it. Otherwise it would be common knowledge.
Anyway, I will close it here. I am glad you took the time to read my try-to-theorycraft Gaudion. /bow respectfully
I should have renamed REAL procs per minute to AVERAGE NUMBER of procs per minute, because indeed the system doesn't count 60 secs that is something I am fully aware of.
Gaudion, I think I never suggested that two seals could be used at the same time, I called "any PPM-proccable" (again, this can't be a word, seriously /smile) meaning for example fiery, weapon special procs, maybe even judgements that have a proc chance per minute.
To recap what I did: trying to find ANY use of SotC outside of weapon skillups. Whatever use there might be, it can't be worth it to actually USE it. Otherwise it would be common knowledge.
Anyway, I will close it here. I am glad you took the time to read my try-to-theorycraft Gaudion. /bow respectfully
Edit: nevermind, thought there was a bug on my previous post!
/goodbye to this thread
Edited, Feb 14th 2008 5:59am by Immunios
/goodbye to this thread
Edited, Feb 14th 2008 5:59am by Immunios
Darn, sorry guys I couldn't resist. I found the following article about procs, haste and whatsoever (no clue if the source is reliable, never heard of it):
http://theholylight.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/procs-per-minute/
It states (among a LOT of useful things) the following:
Haste Effects and Procs!
Attack Speed increasing effects DO NOT decrease your % chance to proc, your chance to proc an attack is based off your BASE weapon speed, so increasing the attack speed does not have any effect on your chance to hit.
Haste effects increase your PPM over the course of a minute.
For example: If you are using a 3.8 speed weapon with a 44% chance to proc Seal of Command and you receive a 30% increase to attack speed.
You are attacking at a 2.66 speed rate, if you are attacking every 2.66 seconds, but you are still maintaining a 44% chance to proc Seal of Command via 3.8 weapon. You PPM will effectively be raised.
So, the answer to my earlier question is: proc chance is based on BASE weapon speed, thus SotC does indeed increase the average expected amount of procs per minute by 40%!
At least 1 use found...
http://theholylight.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/procs-per-minute/
It states (among a LOT of useful things) the following:
Quote:
Haste Effects and Procs!
Attack Speed increasing effects DO NOT decrease your % chance to proc, your chance to proc an attack is based off your BASE weapon speed, so increasing the attack speed does not have any effect on your chance to hit.
Haste effects increase your PPM over the course of a minute.
For example: If you are using a 3.8 speed weapon with a 44% chance to proc Seal of Command and you receive a 30% increase to attack speed.
You are attacking at a 2.66 speed rate, if you are attacking every 2.66 seconds, but you are still maintaining a 44% chance to proc Seal of Command via 3.8 weapon. You PPM will effectively be raised.
So, the answer to my earlier question is: proc chance is based on BASE weapon speed, thus SotC does indeed increase the average expected amount of procs per minute by 40%!
At least 1 use found...
Quote:
judgements that have a proc chance per minute.
SoL and SoW each have a base 40% chance to proc so they don't have PPM. And yes, SotC along with other haste modifiers will increase your PPM as your % chance to proc is based on your weapon speed before modifiers, not after.
However, boosting your speed so that Mongoose might proc is much much inferior to just having a damaging seal on your weapon.
So SotC is still useless.
CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:
Quote:
judgements that have a proc chance per minute.
SoL and SoW each have a base 40% chance to proc so they don't have PPM.
Just a typo I think- you probably meant that JoL and JoW each have a 40% chance to proc. SoL and SoW have a weapon speed-dependent proc rate like all the others. If you've already judged Light or Wisdom, a faster attack speed (e.g., with SotC) will mean more successful procs of JoL and JoW.
It's still not worthwhile, but I don't think Immunios claimed it would be.
Nope, I even agreed that it would not make it USEFUL, merely that there is ONE THING I can think of that it actually enhances. There are much better seals.
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