Not sure if anyone's covered this before, I have looked, but can't seem to find a clear answer to this question.
My situation is simple .. I levelled Fire for 60 levels ... loved the it, very competant build for levelling ... big numbers, impact procs ... big Pyros ... ignite procs ... 2 and 3 shotting same level mobs .. euphoria.
Then at level 60 (or thereabouts), I decided to give frost a try ... I guess it was because I had finally replaced all my +fire damage gear with better +damage gear ... meaning I wouldn't be gimping my frost damage.
I couldn't believe it ... an increase from about 290 dps to around 350 dps (over the course of a night's questing) ... my first Frostbolt crit was higher that my highest Fireball crit ... My mana never seemed to move (ok, it did, but compared to fire ... it was an insane amount better). I would wander through an area and drops mobs so quickly, they would be sprawled in a chain of corpses behind me as I left the area. It was amazing. ofc, the neat little tricks like Bubbles, my water ele and Ice Barrier make it so much better as well.
Why the hell is this, I mean, isn't fire supposed to be the uber-damage spec. It doesn't make sense, or .... is fire something that scales with +damage, and at the level I am now, frost is just better because of my low(er) +spell damage stat.
tbh, I can't ever see myself going back to fire, I am doing insane damage now as frost (ran ramparts the other night and owned the damage meters ... fully 50% higher than the 'lock and rogue) ... or am I short-sighted there .. will fire become better when I go higher.
This is quite relevant as, when I hit 70 (or maybe evern way before), I need to start thinking about tailoring direction .. Spellfire .. or Frozen shadowweave. I don't think I'll raid with this toon, he IS an alt after all, but I always like to place my best efforts into my toons, and this is a situation that demands a "best effort"
Thanks all .. laters
Edited, Feb 12th 2008 12:12pm by robertlofthouse
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Why is my frost better than Fire damage ?!Follow
43 posts
Very interesting question which I will be keeping a close eye on myself.
I myself was frost and specced into fire at lv 62 to try it out, but I must say I was not all that impressed with the numbers and mana useage.
Just makes me wonder why so many lv 70 mages are fire.
I myself was frost and specced into fire at lv 62 to try it out, but I must say I was not all that impressed with the numbers and mana useage.
Just makes me wonder why so many lv 70 mages are fire.
Could you post the fire spec you were using prior to level 60, and the frost spec that you use currently? That will have a big impact on us being able to divine what's going on. Also, an armory profile would be helpful.
Well, I think the big reason is that Frost is literally ALL about crits. With shatter and being able to freeze targets in place and then proc more shatter crits... and the +crit damage talent, Frost has some potential to be very nasty in pvp and world pve.
The biggest problem with Frost in raids and such.... is that bosses are immune to being frozen. You've lost a BIG BIG BIG chunk of your crit potential (and makes ice lance a complete waste essentially). Also most bosses are immune to (I forget precise names of effects cause they're all so similar with frost) having their movement slowed. Frost is all about control of the mob for survivability and with that control gaining high burst damage with crits. I can fairly easily 4-5 shot mobs now with ice lance. Frostbolt x2 or 3... frost nova.... frostbolt and icelance as it ends to get shatter possibility on both... and the mob is dead.
I try that on a boss and I won't do half the damage I do on a normal mob because of boss immunity. If they removed those immunities from bosses, you'd probably see a LOT more raiding frost mages, not that you can't do pretty well as frost as it is now, but generally a fire or fire/arcane mage will out-dps a frost mage.
The biggest problem with Frost in raids and such.... is that bosses are immune to being frozen. You've lost a BIG BIG BIG chunk of your crit potential (and makes ice lance a complete waste essentially). Also most bosses are immune to (I forget precise names of effects cause they're all so similar with frost) having their movement slowed. Frost is all about control of the mob for survivability and with that control gaining high burst damage with crits. I can fairly easily 4-5 shot mobs now with ice lance. Frostbolt x2 or 3... frost nova.... frostbolt and icelance as it ends to get shatter possibility on both... and the mob is dead.
I try that on a boss and I won't do half the damage I do on a normal mob because of boss immunity. If they removed those immunities from bosses, you'd probably see a LOT more raiding frost mages, not that you can't do pretty well as frost as it is now, but generally a fire or fire/arcane mage will out-dps a frost mage.
Scholar
40 posts
Blasphemy!
I am interested in this as well since I am building my spellfire set even as we speak. ( Wow, rich man to poor man in no time ) but as a fire spec I may need to take a journey into the realm of the frost spec to get some more primal fires.
If what you say is true, my entire game is about to change.
I am interested in this as well since I am building my spellfire set even as we speak. ( Wow, rich man to poor man in no time ) but as a fire spec I may need to take a journey into the realm of the frost spec to get some more primal fires.
If what you say is true, my entire game is about to change.
Jiade wrote:
Well, I think the big reason is that Frost is literally ALL about crits. With shatter and being able to freeze targets in place and then proc more shatter crits... and the +crit damage talent, Frost has some potential to be very nasty in pvp and world pve.
.
.
That's probably a lot of it. But also remember that on mobs you're out soloing, odds are good you're gonna lose a LOT of your ignite damage to mobs that die before even the first tick.
Probably because you;re comparing Frost with better gear to fire with worse gear. Even at low gear levels, Fireball should outdamage Frostbolt (remember to count ignie in fire crits) though fire scales better with gear and is thus superior to frost at higher gear levels.
At lower gear levels frostbolt and waterbolt(averaged) together can outdamage fireball, but not frostbolt alone.
EDIT: Although it made it clearer, I could not live with my bad grammar.
Edited, Feb 12th 2008 12:21pm by Kavekk
At lower gear levels frostbolt and waterbolt(averaged) together can outdamage fireball, but not frostbolt alone.
EDIT: Although it made it clearer, I could not live with my bad grammar.
Edited, Feb 12th 2008 12:21pm by Kavekk
As much as I hate actually admitting this, fire WILL out damage frost in a raid/instance situation among equally geared mages.
Frost is awesome. I am Arcane/Frost because I love the +damage, +intellect, POM, AP, ICY Veins....its all fun.
I am however looking into respeccing into fire, but I just can't get away from how much I love frost. If played right frost will come close to fire, but not surpass it unless the mage that is specc'd fire is just a bad player.
If you are going to raid, I would go fire. Tailor your spellfire set and output some major damage. Don't make the mistake I made and be hardheaded and love frost and now have to put in a lot of time and money to respec my tailoring and craft a whole new outfit.
Frost raiding does fine up through Gruul, I am always near the top of the damage meters and my spec is uber mana efficient, but I am ready for the uber uber spell hits and crits.
Frost is awesome. I am Arcane/Frost because I love the +damage, +intellect, POM, AP, ICY Veins....its all fun.
I am however looking into respeccing into fire, but I just can't get away from how much I love frost. If played right frost will come close to fire, but not surpass it unless the mage that is specc'd fire is just a bad player.
If you are going to raid, I would go fire. Tailor your spellfire set and output some major damage. Don't make the mistake I made and be hardheaded and love frost and now have to put in a lot of time and money to respec my tailoring and craft a whole new outfit.
Frost raiding does fine up through Gruul, I am always near the top of the damage meters and my spec is uber mana efficient, but I am ready for the uber uber spell hits and crits.
Scholar
23 posts
haha I did the same and decided on the frost tailor gear for the sta for some pvp usage... ya great choice... but them I'll never grind out all that arena gear, and as you say: Frost is actually very effictive in Kara / early post kara. In fact for a noob raidier its almost ideal.
Thanks for all the replies folks ... Pol probably hit it on the head ... a lot of Fire damage comes from DoTs, and Mobs drop too fast for those DoTs to become effective.
Jiade has a very good point, in that frost w/ shatter, Winter's chill, etc .. is all about crits, which makes damage that much higher. HOwever, in raids, bosses are not going to be affected by the factors which affect mobs, making the big bonus that frost gives you pretty much null ... much the same way that mobs dying too quickly voids the advantage that fire would give you.
In response to Kavekk, nope, my gear was identical at the time of my respec. One day I was fire, the next day I was frost with the same gear ...
I reckon then, the bottom line is ... for questing - frost due to the control and crit potential ... for longer fights where the freezing / control effect is negated ... fire.
Now, I suppose, the only thing I need to answer myself is ... will I raid with my Mage !!!
Thanks again all
Jiade has a very good point, in that frost w/ shatter, Winter's chill, etc .. is all about crits, which makes damage that much higher. HOwever, in raids, bosses are not going to be affected by the factors which affect mobs, making the big bonus that frost gives you pretty much null ... much the same way that mobs dying too quickly voids the advantage that fire would give you.
In response to Kavekk, nope, my gear was identical at the time of my respec. One day I was fire, the next day I was frost with the same gear ...
I reckon then, the bottom line is ... for questing - frost due to the control and crit potential ... for longer fights where the freezing / control effect is negated ... fire.
Now, I suppose, the only thing I need to answer myself is ... will I raid with my Mage !!!
Thanks again all
To sum up everyones posts and answer the OPs questions I'll toss in a few words.
Your right to be seeing more damage dealt at your lvl with frost. There's really only 3 talents that cause this. Shatter, Ice Shards, and Frostbite. With the high amount of crits, higher crit damage, and ability to freeze targets more your DPS should be higher then fire out of boss fights.
At around 600 spelldamage though. You can go 40/21/0 and boost your DPS with fire without relying on shatter. Getting Spell Power will negate Ice Shards. The crit talents in arcane/fire trees will boost your crit chance on ALL spells and negate the 50% shatter will give frozen targets. Plus the extra mana you get from the arcane tree will help in early boss fights when you don't have the mana pool yet.
Then finally at 950-1000 spell damage deep fire will put out the most DPS. With this much damage and crit% the dots you will lay on a target will be massive. It's easy to get 30% crit with T4ish gear. This way you will crit and lay a new DoT on the target before the other one ticks off. Your hitting with a 4k crit fireball, every 2.5 sec with 350 ticking every 2 sec.
Your right to be seeing more damage dealt at your lvl with frost. There's really only 3 talents that cause this. Shatter, Ice Shards, and Frostbite. With the high amount of crits, higher crit damage, and ability to freeze targets more your DPS should be higher then fire out of boss fights.
At around 600 spelldamage though. You can go 40/21/0 and boost your DPS with fire without relying on shatter. Getting Spell Power will negate Ice Shards. The crit talents in arcane/fire trees will boost your crit chance on ALL spells and negate the 50% shatter will give frozen targets. Plus the extra mana you get from the arcane tree will help in early boss fights when you don't have the mana pool yet.
Then finally at 950-1000 spell damage deep fire will put out the most DPS. With this much damage and crit% the dots you will lay on a target will be massive. It's easy to get 30% crit with T4ish gear. This way you will crit and lay a new DoT on the target before the other one ticks off. Your hitting with a 4k crit fireball, every 2.5 sec with 350 ticking every 2 sec.
1 mre thing that was brought up but only briefly. You quested pretty much to outlands fire, but you had shatty pre-bc gear. once you hit lvl 60 you're usually rocking %60-%70 outlands gear which is substantially better (ex. chest piece having 7int and +10 dmg pre-bc to chest having 24int and +35 damage in outlands)
i stayed fire all the way to 70 an i still noticed the huge increase in damage around lvl 60.
also like said above, alot of fire dmg come from ignite which normal mobs usually are dead before it ticks
i stayed fire all the way to 70 an i still noticed the huge increase in damage around lvl 60.
also like said above, alot of fire dmg come from ignite which normal mobs usually are dead before it ticks
From my experience frost is better dps for farming at 70 because the cast time is short, if you go 40/0/20 your crits are massive, and also you can use fb/icelance combos on frozen targets. All this equals very quick killing.
For dps in heroics and raids deep fire is somewhat better than frost, because the base damage of a fireball is a lot higher and you have ignite and fireball tick and imp.scorch. All this equals nice dps in longer fights. Which is why a lot of 70s are fire for pve content.
For dps in heroics and raids deep fire is somewhat better than frost, because the base damage of a fireball is a lot higher and you have ignite and fireball tick and imp.scorch. All this equals nice dps in longer fights. Which is why a lot of 70s are fire for pve content.
Kuresta wrote:
1 mre thing that was brought up but only briefly. You quested pretty much to outlands fire, but you had shatty pre-bc gear. once you hit lvl 60 you're usually rocking %60-%70 outlands gear which is substantially better (ex. chest piece having 7int and +10 dmg pre-bc to chest having 24int and +35 damage in outlands)
i stayed fire all the way to 70 an i still noticed the huge increase in damage around lvl 60.
i stayed fire all the way to 70 an i still noticed the huge increase in damage around lvl 60.
It's a fair comment, and one which you would not be wrong about ... the thing is, by the time I decided to respec, I was pretty much 80% in bc gear already, and yes, I DID see a massive improvement in my Fire DPS while still fire spec'd due to this gear. I enjoyed that increased DPS for about half a level before I decided to see what Frost could do. Then my DPS improved again ;-)
koast wrote:
From my experience frost is better dps for farming at 70 because the cast time is short, if you go 40/0/20 your crits are massive, and also you can use fb/icelance combos on frozen targets. All this equals very quick killing.
For dps in heroics and raids deep fire is somewhat better than frost, because the base damage of a fireball is a lot higher and you have ignite and fireball tick and imp.scorch. All this equals nice dps in longer fights. Which is why a lot of 70s are fire for pve content
For dps in heroics and raids deep fire is somewhat better than frost, because the base damage of a fireball is a lot higher and you have ignite and fireball tick and imp.scorch. All this equals nice dps in longer fights. Which is why a lot of 70s are fire for pve content
Golly, I hadn't thought about that ... you get +100% bonus damage from Ice Shards, and +50% bonus from Spell Power ... that's insane, not to mention Arcane Power and Mind Mastery... those look like they could be big numbers :-D
Quote:
At lower gear levels frostbolt and waterbolt(averaged) together can outdamage fireball, but not frostbolt alone.
Maybe I'm just being really noob here, in which case please forgive me.
But whats waterbolt?
The ice minion thingy's bolt attack?
Edited, Feb 19th 2008 12:23pm by NeroSeekerOfSouls
NeroSeekerOfSouls wrote:
Quote:
At lower gear levels frostbolt and waterbolt(averaged) together can outdamage fireball, but not frostbolt alone.
Maybe I'm just being really noob here, in which case please forgive me.
But whats waterbolt?
The ice minion thingy's bolt attack?
Edited, Feb 19th 2008 12:23pm by NeroSeekerOfSouls
Yes, the water elemental's attack is called Waterbolt.
#17REDACTED,
Posted: Mar 18 2008 at 8:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This is an insane post. Fire is NOT made for long fights. thats why the ice mage is doing more damage on the meters. Fire specc'd mages are meant to kill things fast not deal alot of damage over time. switch back to fire and compare how long it takes you kill things vs frost.
iamastharath wrote:
This is an insane post. Fire is NOT made for long fights. thats why the ice mage is doing more damage on the meters. Fire specc'd mages are meant to kill things fast not deal alot of damage over time. switch back to fire and compare how long it takes you kill things vs frost.
also when making a post like this i agree with TheEngine
Scholar we beed to see your gear to make sure youre specc'd correctly for DPS.
also when making a post like this i agree with TheEngine
Scholar we beed to see your gear to make sure youre specc'd correctly for DPS.
What the hell are you talking about? Fire LIVES for long fights. Long fights means more time with Imp Scorch up. Long fights means more time during the less than 20% health golden time. Long fights means that fewer ignites go unticked because the mob died. Long fights means multiple combustions, multiple trinket usages.
Fire LIVES for long fights. Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.
22 posts
I think Poldaran got the answer with his last post. More than likely when you are leveling you aren't stacking 5/5 improved scorch. That is the source of fire mages damage.
Also, when the mobs are below 20% that is 20% more damage done. When raiding with 5/5 improved scorches my fireballs hit for 500 more damage than without. Then when the bosses get below 20% my fireballs hit for an insane amount.
So the source of the mages damage while specced fire you really aren't getting. The 5/5 improved scorches and the damage done when the boss is below 20%.
Also, when the mobs are below 20% that is 20% more damage done. When raiding with 5/5 improved scorches my fireballs hit for 500 more damage than without. Then when the bosses get below 20% my fireballs hit for an insane amount.
So the source of the mages damage while specced fire you really aren't getting. The 5/5 improved scorches and the damage done when the boss is below 20%.
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
iamastharath wrote:
This is an insane post. Fire is NOT made for long fights. thats why the ice mage is doing more damage on the meters. Fire specc'd mages are meant to kill things fast not deal alot of damage over time. switch back to fire and compare how long it takes you kill things vs frost.
also when making a post like this i agree with TheEngine
Scholar we beed to see your gear to make sure youre specc'd correctly for DPS.
also when making a post like this i agree with TheEngine
Scholar we beed to see your gear to make sure youre specc'd correctly for DPS.
What the hell are you talking about? Fire LIVES for long fights. Long fights means more time with Imp Scorch up. Long fights means more time during the less than 20% health golden time. Long fights means that fewer ignites go unticked because the mob died. Long fights means multiple combustions, multiple trinket usages.
Fire LIVES for long fights. Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about.
Perhaps he means long solo fights? You can nuke the crap out of stuff as fire and kill it before the DOT from Scorch does much for solo and kill it quick but if you are soloing tough things where you need a lot of CC and the like ice is better?
IDK. Trying to figure it out myself.
I just switched from Frost to Fire yesterday. I had frozen shadoweave wiht Frost and now I have spellfire as a fire mage. We ran Heroic SL yesterday, I can tell you there is no comparison between the damage I did as a frost mage to what I'm doing now. I regurally got 5400+ crits yesterday. I had to hold back a lot. Not use combustion or icy veins sometimes because of the aggro. Keeping the 5 scorchs up and getting the 40% continuing damage after crits is insane damage. I very reluctantaly changed specs when I started falling behind on the damage meters. I don't think that will be a problem now.
I also never had a problem with mana. We have a shammy in our group who drops totems to help with that.
I will respec once a week to 17/0/41 for arenas
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Quel%27dorei&n=Varilhigh
I also never had a problem with mana. We have a shammy in our group who drops totems to help with that.
I will respec once a week to 17/0/41 for arenas
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Quel%27dorei&n=Varilhigh
1 post
Arcan/fire = endgame pve build. thats all there is to say, frost is for solo and pvp.
waus wrote:
Arcan/fire = endgame pve build. thats all there is to say,
If by "Arcan/fire" you mean 2/47/11 +1, then yes.
Edited, Mar 26th 2008 2:04am by Poldaran
waus wrote:
Arcan/fire = endgame pve build. thats all there is to say, frost is for solo and pvp.
or if by endgame you mean kara with less than 800ish fire damage.
If this hasn't been covered already, it may also be due to the OP measuring this in solo. Things like shatter don't really proc much in instances or especially raids, because freezes break too fast. Also, if you're able to keep mobs from hitting you (even with burning soul) you're going to pump out more damage. Not to mention fire gets more damage in longer fights via stacking scorch (less time you spend on scorch, more time you spend on fireball) and via molten fury (if the mob goes from 25% to 6% then to dead, it doesn't matter that you had MF, whereas if it goes from 21% to 19% then it does matter).
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