PvP Retribution - Open discussion on talentsFollow

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZVGkhMhZVbIth0uVIRz

Here is a link to a build I've been working on for quite some time. I'm trying to optimize not the damage done, but bring a balance of utility/survivability and DPS together.

Let's start out in the Ret tree:
5/5 Benediction - I've always loved this talent, and Imp. Might is worthless unless you're in the 'every point counts' mode. More saved mana = more damage to be done.
2/2 Imp. Judgement - The more judging you do also ='s more damage. Also, the second tier is pretty skimpy.
3/5 Deflection - I've never judged SotC in a PvP environment. Too much wasted time and mana. I wouldn't put it in Imp. Might either, and you'll see why.
5/5 Conviction - Do I really need to explain this?
1/1 Seal of Command - Do I really need to explain this, too?
3/3 Pursuit of Justice - I've always picked up this talent when Retribution following the 2 -> 3 point conversion. You never know when that 3% will save your life, and it's always nice to be able to catch druids and the like.
3/3 Vindication - I selected this talent because I wouldn't take anything in the 4th tier. And 15% is quite a bit when you have 600 stamina, etc.
3/3 Two Handed Weapon Spec - 6% is a lot. 6% of 2000 is 120. That's quite a damage increase.
1/1 Sanctity Aura - Although it doesn't help as much as it used to, it adds up when you get a 1k Judgement, HoW, etc.
5/5 Vengeance - A staple of Retribution damage, it allows us more damage as we crit. With the new 30 sec. rule, it can stay up almost indefinately during a fight.
3/3 Sanctified Judgement - I judge a lot to maximize my damage in between white swings and CS. The more I judge, the more mana I burn through, and this helps me keep stable along with Benediction.
3/3 Sanctified Seals - More crits is more damage, and more Vengeance procs. Also saves a ton of mana when fighting a Shaman or any other dispeller, as it keeps our seals from being dispelled by 100%.
1/1 Repentance - Our only other CC, Repentance can save a life by stopping a heal, stopping a DPSer, etc. Very cheap is mana, with a reasonable CD.
2/3 Divine Purpose - 7% less critical strike damage may not seem like much, but when you have a rogue on you critting and critting and critting, it'll save your healer a lot of heartache, especially if you have low resilience.
1/1 Crusader Strike - The biggest staple of Retirbution after Seal of Command, it makes upa ton of your damage.

5/5 Redoubt or Devotion Aura - Doesn't truly matter where you put your points here, as both talents are extremely useless for a Retirbution Paladin.
3/3 Precision - If you miss, you do absolutely no damage to the target. This talent is definately more for PvE, but will become invaluable for PvP.
2/2 Guardian's Favor - With my team, saving the Resto Shaman is imperative. Making it so that the warrior can eat an ice mage with BoF is also very handy, and those 4 extra seconds count can win a battle.
1/5 Toughness - Simply a filler, but more armor is always liked.
1/1 Blessing of Kings - This blessing would be taken over any other, as more health, strength, more everything will equate to more than 220 AP or 41 Mp5.
3/3 Imp. Righteous Fury - 6% damage taken decrease adds up fast. Also able to subsititue to 4/5 Toughness instead.
2/2 Stoicism - Added with the 5% stun resist meta gem, you have the durability of an orc! Also staves away the dispel trolls.
3/3 Imp. hammer of Justice - 15 seconds is huge on a 1 minute CD. Add in the 10 second 4-piece bonus, and you are golden. More stuns equates to more survivability and control.

Let me know what you think.

/Wall of text crits you for 20k. You die.

Edited, Feb 11th 2008 10:46am by Dathur

i think this is where Gaudion was going with his arena support build. i'll still say though it sounds ok on paper, i think it wont help the way it is intended.

truth is i have respec'd, too many times. i used every talent combination in Ret, Prot, and half way down in Holy. however, i haven't touched more than 5 pts in Holy since tBC. my respec fee has remained 50g for almost a year now from going MT and back. along the way i've gotten a feel for balance vs inbalance as i kept talents along the way. you ever take a S1/S2 2H Prot into arena? great if you roll up to 5 rogues. not so great when you get chain feared and hit like a girl when you get your chance.

point being, there aren't enough talents to toughen you up vs any one class type. its more of a plethora of minor buffs and debuffs. 5% of one thing and 3% of another adds up to close to nothing. something substantial, like a spell reflect, lasting debuff, or an added escape tactic would have more meaning.

in the chaos that is arena, one needs to maximize what one sets out to do. if you need to be support, roll Holy. if you want burst dmg, spec dmg talents. if you want both, you probably will have a hard time makin it work.

FWIW, i spec'd out of precision, and what came with it, because i feel i gimped myself more in pvp by taking it. the loss in pve is not as obvious due to S3 gear and avg mob lvl.

i went as far as 20/41 for imp HoJ, stoicism, and spell warding(back when it was resists and i thought it was tier 4)...rest in ret. this was early tBC when all i wanted to do was eat warlocks. i kept this for BGs for a few weeks til i realized i wasn't able to stay alive vs anything effectively. i decided if im going down, im taking everything with me...thus lead to my last spec.

i wont give any advice i havent experienced myself. i haven't used that spec in arena...all i can say is see for yourself and prove me wrong.

Looking forward to it.

Also,
I didn't see "Seal of Vengeance" mentioned anywhere in here. thats a MAJOR part of DPS for a ret pally (lvl64+)


Heres my basic combo for some serious burst damage, try it out. (If its flawed let me know)

Attack:
1)Judgement of the Crusader
2)Crusader Strike
3)Seal of Vengeance
4)Consecration
(normal attack until your judgment is almost refreshed:)
5)Hammer of Justice(stun)
6)Seal of Command
7)Judgement of Command (which does not remove the Judgement of Crusader from your enemy)
Rinse & Repeat steps 2-7 using these judgements, stun+SoC & crusader strike whenever available.

Half time show:
Usually after about 2 of these combos my opponents begin to scramble. Occasionally I may have to bubble/heal myself if they did a massive amount of DPS by this point.

Finally:
Usually 2 more rounds of that combo and they're toast.

*Of course this is burst damage and using Seal of Vengeance back to back with Seal/Judgment of Command is a serious drain on mana. But having allot of +Int gear makes Ret-pally one of the toughest mofos in the game.

I rarely loose a battle 1 on 1 and I can't understand why so many players think less of Ret-pallies. Personally, I think allot of players don't realize when they're fighting a Ret/Holy/Prot pally and kinda lump all the cons of each together. I can't tell you how many times I've had warriors run up & stun me thinking I'm a healer just to get stunned right back and beat down, tucked their tails and ran away helpless. Usually during that "half-time" period I mentioned before. lol

What are some successful combos you guys use?


Edited, Feb 15th 2008 9:48am by ChanceTouchstone

not really short burst. sounds more like a 1 minute rotation you got there. the only time i mix in SoV is when i want to keep a rogue active. otherwise SoC will outdo any SoV dmg, especially being melee heavy now. JotC is overshadowed by a JoC openner. JotC also should NOT be automatic, it will cause a CD and you might be better off with JoJ in many cases.

i agree with the posted build in that imp SotC is almost worthless in arena.

Does Divine Purpose affect spell damage? The tooltip says "melee and ranged", which I took to mean all manner of physical attacks and wouldn't include spell damage going by the game's lingo. Is the tooltip just badly worded or is this the case?

It does indeed say "Melee and ranged," so I guess it doesn't affect spells.

Never mind the math then. Still useful vs. stabbies and kitties, I guess.

Yeah Tommygun, I think I was mistaken in reguards to JoC & JotC. I've leveled and bought ALL the available skill upgrades available every single time but when I made level 69 I had 4 new ranks of Seal of Command available to me which made it more powerful (obviously) and now its allot more effective. I had to wonder tho... why it wasn't available to me before. Theirs no way i over looked so many times so I have to wonder if it was a bug. (scratches head)

Either way, I'm doing more DPS now so I'm happy

Chance the stone wrote:


hmmm....idk about that, i think tht most will agree that SoC is MUCH better than SoV in most cases. SoV takes too long to set up and use, unless your fighting a boss.

You forgot Druids.

All movement buffs, including mounts.

if your mounted with it on, you simply move at walk speed on your mount.
druids are very fun to hit with it. because you can watch them change forms a dozen times before they get the hint that its not a "snare" so its not comming off with change forms. when your running right up next their cheetah form slapping their ars, its good times.

Sanctified Seal says prevent dispell by 100%. as of now i havent noticed it ever getting dispelled. so if your Ret at least, rogues cant sprint out of it. . . i think. . . c.c Edit: disregard, i miss interpreted the tool tip.

Edit: just remember that its not a "snare" so normal methods of breaking such a debuff do not apply. it is a "magic" last i checked so that limits the despell to a few classes. but as a Ret i think it will stick no matter what any one tries.

Edited, Feb 19th 2008 9:01am by RuenBahamut

Edited, Feb 19th 2008 10:32am by RuenBahamut