If you look at my main, I am still wearing a nice leather shoulder piece. It wasn't a roll Item but I instead decided to replace a Mail piece with this leather piece as it was a dramatic upgrade from my old low 60s shoulder's.
True, you may feel armor is more important and true your guild and you believe the reason you do. But for those same reasons we believe otherwise.
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Scolariman wrote:
OP wrote:
I have just finished a Blood Furnace run on the Aszune server with my feral druid. The final boss goes down and a very good feral leather item drops. Being the only leather wearer in the group it was definately a need role for me.
Scolariman wrote:
I thought I was talking about the original post by using examples of gear found in BF. I looked at the gear from the last boss, assumed (my bold for emphasis) it was a normal instance run at lower level 60's. First thing I saw was the shoulders.
Scolariman wrote:
Remembering my days at that level, and remembering I went to Slave Pens after BR, I looked to the gear there and saw the mail shoulders. My common sense told me I would rather have the Mail shoulders so that is how my opinion was formed.
How many times have you said in a group "Hey guys, this item is an upgrade for me, but give me a few minutes to browse Allakhazam to see if I can get something better somewhere else and then I'll be happy to pass"? I'll make an assumption now: The count of that event is zero.
Scolariman wrote:
Sounded like others talked about Leather Gear for hunters using them in just 5-mans where they shouldn't be hit that much because of the Tank holding agro. I know I said in another post "I don't PvP....". That should have been "I don't PvP a lot". So I'd rather have the Mail gear over the leather for extra armor incase I did PvP while leveling up. So I worked at getting the Mail gear and passing all the Leather to other classes.
Scolariman wrote:
I guess I started drawing lines earlier then others. Kara for example the leather gear in there would be the highest gear at that stage of progression for a rogue.
Myself and pretty much my entire guild believes the rogue has priority over the leather items because the hunter will be in there long enough to get his mail item. Then after the rogue gets the item the hunter has a right to roll on it next time it drops if they are still waiting on the mail gear.
Myself and pretty much my entire guild believes the rogue has priority over the leather items because the hunter will be in there long enough to get his mail item. Then after the rogue gets the item the hunter has a right to roll on it next time it drops if they are still waiting on the mail gear.
Scolariman wrote:
We have 2 Kara group running right now but we have enough DPS for at least 3. So by giving it to the classes that really need the item to "finish" their gear needs will allow us to rotate another DPS into his slot. Where if the hunter had rolled on the leather item over the rogue it would delay moving that other DPSer into the group.
Though the original argument was...awkward... I do feel I need to agree. On my server, I lost several groups because hunters had created such a poor reputation of our class as ninja looters. It was actually one of the factors that made me drop the class (I only use it for occasional PvP now)
To further this, I've had my D3 set pieces ninjad 3 times by hunters while on my rogue, The leggings, tunic, and shoulders. Leather armor (though a good choice for dps) were all taken from me after clarifying that I was searching for the said items (the times I've been victimized by needy hunters is not limited to these items though), I've yet to see the leggings and shoulders drop after many attempts (not that it matters now with all of my pretty epics)
Just throwing all that out there I guess. I'm trying my best not to gripe about losing the rolls, but I just find it odd that so many huntards (not to be confused with any of you, just the idiot population of them) can't seem to look outside of their own needs for such things. I personally never rolled on gear that would have been better suited for a different class that was present in the group. I will not deny having rolled and won leather in the past, but never against, say, a rogue or druid.
To further this, I've had my D3 set pieces ninjad 3 times by hunters while on my rogue, The leggings, tunic, and shoulders. Leather armor (though a good choice for dps) were all taken from me after clarifying that I was searching for the said items (the times I've been victimized by needy hunters is not limited to these items though), I've yet to see the leggings and shoulders drop after many attempts (not that it matters now with all of my pretty epics)
Just throwing all that out there I guess. I'm trying my best not to gripe about losing the rolls, but I just find it odd that so many huntards (not to be confused with any of you, just the idiot population of them) can't seem to look outside of their own needs for such things. I personally never rolled on gear that would have been better suited for a different class that was present in the group. I will not deny having rolled and won leather in the past, but never against, say, a rogue or druid.
Jonofthedead wrote:
I'm trying my best not to gripe about losing the rolls, but I just find it odd that so many huntards (not to be confused with any of you, just the idiot population of them) can't seem to look outside of their own needs for such things. I personally never rolled on gear that would have been better suited for a different class that was present in the group. I will not deny having rolled and won leather in the past, but never against, say, a rogue or druid.
So my bark is a lot worse than my bite on this subject, but I do hate seeing Hunters either called greedy or huntards or ninjas for rolling on upgrades when in a group and participating as an equal member. It just gets my back up, because it's been that way basically forever. Are you a level 1-40 Hunter? Every Rogue or Druid or Shaman calls you a ninja for rolling for leather, because they are in melee range and you're not. "LOLZ, noob Huntarz don't need armorz..." And all of those plus Warriors and Paladins will scream bloody murder over any melee weapon you want to roll on, because a Hunters primary weapon is ranged. "I meleez and you don't, ninja Huntard!" Post 40 it's Rogues and Shaman for Leather and Mail, and again just about anyone on weapons.
So while I understand all the arguments of those classes, the bottom line is that a Hunter in 10 level old armor using a 10 level old weapon(s) isn't going to contribute much to a group. And then there's that little issue of having worked with the group as a supposedly equal member to earn the drops they are all screaming about the Hunter ninjaing, i.e. taking a equal chance on the roll for. So then the situation becomes self-perpetuating: "Hunters want to ninja our loots, and they don't even contribute much. Best not to even invite them to groups."
Edited, Feb 20th 2008 6:24am by Kompera
#81REDACTED,
Posted: Feb 20 2008 at 5:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And if that hunter were in our guild with leather on he would have been told "Run this other instance for this gear because it would be an upgrade on that leather item". At level 70 if they showed up with leather on because it was better than any pre-kara mail item they could find there wouldn't be an issue. But while leveling there are so many more options for a hunter with the availability of Mail that I feel for my playstyle there really isn't a need for leather.
Well shit, I go away for a short time and all manner of people get uppity. Not to mention, the regulars keep these discussions going instead of using a quick, forceful verbal headbutting to provide quick resolution.
It can all be boiled down to this:
An item drops that two people can use. Something better may or may not drop later on, who knows? But right here and now there's one item, two prospective users. If the item is an upgrade, you roll. There you go. Problem solved. The loser headbutts the monitor, and resigns himself to run the instance again or just go on with whatever gear he has until the next usable item drops.
There are of course tons of other things that might turn things around, guild run, semi-guild run, deals made in the beginning and so on. But for any random pug, this is how it works. If you get pissy about the roll, you just made four people /ignore you and look elsewhere for a fifth wheel in the next instance they run.
Scolarikid: You have been outmatched repeatedly throughout this thread. You are vainly attempting to keep the discussion alive, but it has in fact expired several posts ago. You aren't resuscitating it, you are keeping it on life support until someone pulls the plug. Consider it pulled, because no one is going to suddenly change opinions on this.
It can all be boiled down to this:
An item drops that two people can use. Something better may or may not drop later on, who knows? But right here and now there's one item, two prospective users. If the item is an upgrade, you roll. There you go. Problem solved. The loser headbutts the monitor, and resigns himself to run the instance again or just go on with whatever gear he has until the next usable item drops.
There are of course tons of other things that might turn things around, guild run, semi-guild run, deals made in the beginning and so on. But for any random pug, this is how it works. If you get pissy about the roll, you just made four people /ignore you and look elsewhere for a fifth wheel in the next instance they run.
Scolarikid: You have been outmatched repeatedly throughout this thread. You are vainly attempting to keep the discussion alive, but it has in fact expired several posts ago. You aren't resuscitating it, you are keeping it on life support until someone pulls the plug. Consider it pulled, because no one is going to suddenly change opinions on this.
Scolariman wrote:
Even if I didn't know what dropped in the next instace or what quest rewards were available. I would just assume, once again, that blizzard has put MAIL gear in the game that would be a nice upgrade for me. To say that others might not assume that is just stupid. Do you think people see a leather drop and say to themselves "There won't be any more mail drops for me, I'll take this." I would hope they are smart enought to know other mail items would drop, even if they didn't know what those items were.
Gear is based on finding statistics that will improve your performance in a given role. Tanks can, of course, wear cloth. But the fact that the role they are filling is that of tank means that they really shouldn't. But hunters don't depend so strongly on high armour. They are looking, primarily, stats like agility and ap - statistics that improve the damage they will deal.
Just because a hunter can wear mail, it doesn't mean that they have to. You make it sound like any mail item, with any stats on it, is much better than a leather item with good hunter stats.
I don't say to myself "There won't be any more mail drops for me, I'll take this" but I might say "this piece has the exact stats I'm looking for and in higher amounts than my current equipment has. I'll roll on it"
I'm not taking it. I'm rolling, to give myself as much equal chance as the other rollers have, because it is an upgrade. Me rolling does not guarantee I will get it. It's simply giving me the chance to upgrade my gear.
And you always seem to insist that the hunter must go elsewhere to find gear. There are other leather pieces all over the game too. Why is it inconceivable that a rogue might say, "There are other leather items in [such and such], I'll go grab them instead"?
If you do so much research into loot, surely you know where better leather gear is. Why doesn't the rogue go get that, instead of the item the hunter and druid are need rolling on? Insisting that they should is, of course, ridiculous. But it's just as ridiculous to say it to a hunter. You're basically saying that, in every instance, they should pass up an upgrade - just because there's an even better one later on. How will they ever get any gear?
Rolling need with a rogue isn't stealing anything. It's two players, each with 50/50 chance, hoping for an upgrade.
I do agree, though, that I treat PUGs just as I would a guild run. I don't treat those party members with any less consideration just because they're strangers.
Quote:
Scolarikid: You have been outmatched repeatedly throughout this thread.
How is it that I'm "outmatched"? Stating my opinion on how myself and my guild treats loot vs other people's method of looting (PUG or Guild runs). You say both classes should roll on the leather item. Some people feel the same way which would make that statement correct. Others have posted that they would pass to another class before they rolled on it, which would make my statements on passing correct.
My posts I thought were to show others how some people treat loot. So once you get to 70 and start raiding you're not thinking that there is only one logical way to handle loot.
Example: Last week in our Kara run "Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless" droped from the Chess event. Instantly the raid leader says "Congrats Rogue" and hands it off to the rogue. Our hunter could have used it and would like to get them. You might say "That's wrong" but only if you handle loot differently. To us it's right.
If that hunter had been a new guild member with only one opinion on how loot should be done they might flip out. So by posting my loot opinions it shows that your way isn't the only way it is done.
You "regulars" are not the only people who come to these forums for information. After reading this forum and different Guild forums I've been in I knew early on that I might not get to roll on leather items depending on the group I was with. So I got used to passing on leather to wait for a mail item. Was it wrong of me to do? No, because that is how I play.
-------------
Edit:
The original poster must appears to have only had the opinion that "Leather should be passed on by hunters". You posted on what you thought was right to show them that his way wasn't the only way. Which was what I was doing by showsing how I handle it.
Edited, Feb 20th 2008 10:09am by Scolariman
Scolariman wrote:
Quote:
Scolarikid: You have been outmatched repeatedly throughout this thread.
How is it that I'm "outmatched"? Stating my opinion on how myself and my guild treats loot vs other people's method of looting (PUG or Guild runs).
It's not your actual opinion, that you have been outmatched, it's your arguement and reasonings for that opinion that, to put it simply, are retarded.
Other people in this thread have posted agreeing with your side with much, much better arguements, that have been acknowledged as valid points for an oppinion.
Your arguement however is "the hunter should get his gear somewhere else" is just dumb.
Edited, Feb 20th 2008 11:32am by SynnTastic
Scolariman wrote:
I'm not saying I would never use leather either. My boots are leather out of Kara but I only rolled because we didn't have a rogue or druid in the group. I would never roll vs those classes on a leather item.
How is my argument of going for other gear bad?
If a warrior wanted to roll on a DPS mail item you were going after as a hunter wouldn't you want to tell them "There are some nice Plate DPS Gloves in this other instance that would be better for you."?? Wouldn't that be better than having them roll on an item you wanted. One way if they take your advice you are guaranteed to get the item you want that you've worked hard at getting. The other hand you have a 50% chance of having to run the instance again where you might not see the item again for another 3+ runs.
Blood Furnace is a 61-63 instance. Slave Pens is a 62-64 instance. If you can run the one you should have no problem running the other.
Assumptions were made by everyone and I assumed people would want to run more instance as to not get bored doing the same one over and over. People assumed that others don't look online for gear or know about sites like this. I would say the population of people who do use these sites outways the number who don't. So I assumed people would know what was available to them.
Every zone I've been in people are spamming "Check Thottbot", "Check Wowhead", "Check Allakhazam". I would think by the time a person hits Outlands they would have heard that enough to actually use the advice given to them.
Your arguement is pointless and mute. IF A WARRIOR, was in need of a pair of DPS Mail What ever the %&*# it is your saying, a hunter obviously wouldn't be needing it as Warriors DPS stuff involves .... hummmmm, Maybe strength? POINTLESS.
Your arguement is mute.
Go away.
Your arguement is mute.
Go away.
#88REDACTED,
Posted: Feb 20 2008 at 9:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Edited, Feb 20th 2008 12:26pm by Scolariman
Havent seen any DPS mail gloves that would be a real upgrade to any warrior I know... and I know some poorly geared warriors. Quested items give them more what they are looking for than anything Mail at that level range will... Everything in the low 60s gives mainly agil or has the +spell damage on it. I have passed on a quite a few things due to the fact it was a spell damage item that would have been pretty nice on my hunter if it had just a bit of AP or crit instead.
Just showing you what your arguement looks like to everyone else. seriously. It is irrelivent. If a DPSer needs and item roll need. I don't give a damn what class they are or use they have of it. Unless it's a Dungeon set for a specific class theres no reason not to.
Just showing you what your arguement looks like to everyone else. seriously. It is irrelivent. If a DPSer needs and item roll need. I don't give a damn what class they are or use they have of it. Unless it's a Dungeon set for a specific class theres no reason not to.
Quote:
Havent seen any DPS mail gloves that would be a real upgrade to any warrior I know... and I know some poorly geared warriors. Quested items give them more what they are looking for than anything Mail at that level range will... Everything in the low 60s gives mainly agil or has the +spell damage on it. I have passed on a quite a few things due to the fact it was a spell damage item that would have been pretty nice on my hunter if it had just a bit of AP or crit instead.
You are right, most mail gear wouldn't be an upgrade for the plate quest reward gear in the early 60's.
But you're assuming they know about the Quest rewards that are plate. But when I assume hunters know about Mail quest items or drops in other instances people bash me about in this post...."Some people don't know what drops in other instances".
Edited, Feb 20th 2008 1:16pm by Scolariman
They are bashing you because your logic is screwed. My point is I haven't seen a warrior need a Mail piece in outland due to the fact that all the pieces through quests fill the items better than any mail piece can.
However. If you have looked at most of the mail items you get through hellfire's quests. Most of them are shammy style mail pieces with a few good items for hunters here and there. (I hear blades edge has a better grouping of items for hunters than this place) So it is quite possible that a leather gloves or bracers might pop up that are better for a hunter and a rogue. (the rogue might have gotten a better upgrade from quests as well. Remember this is all theoretical)
So what is the big deal with both of them needing. Hunter's CAN wear mail...
but that doesn't say they have to. The increased armor helps the pet as well... but not as much as say 5-10 more stam or agility. (you see where I am getting at?)
No my friend, they are not bashing you because of your view, but the logic you show them is so screwed up no one sees it as a liable reason.
Even if you were to say the Mail gloves that the hunter had were way better than the rogue's and a nice leather gloves dropped, Then due to the fact the hunter already has say a Blue BoP mail from a quest or an instance prior to this one, and the rogue has some BoE of the bandit green on and has stats sitting in the 60 level range, then yes the hunter should bow out due to the fact his gear is already way better and the upgrade for him may only be slight vs the great improvement to the rogue.
This seems to me a better way to explain it than just saying hunters should aways pass on leather for a rogue even if it's a good upgrade for hunter as well.
Obviously
Agil, +AP, +Crit, +hit and +stam are things a hunter would want way before worrying about armor.
*EDIT* You also gotta remember that most of the gear you refer to is drops from another place. Why should a hunter wait to run something else or hope a different item drops when this one is sitting here for his chance to get it. That's everyone elses point.
Edited, Feb 20th 2008 10:42am by HitashLevat
However. If you have looked at most of the mail items you get through hellfire's quests. Most of them are shammy style mail pieces with a few good items for hunters here and there. (I hear blades edge has a better grouping of items for hunters than this place) So it is quite possible that a leather gloves or bracers might pop up that are better for a hunter and a rogue. (the rogue might have gotten a better upgrade from quests as well. Remember this is all theoretical)
So what is the big deal with both of them needing. Hunter's CAN wear mail...
but that doesn't say they have to. The increased armor helps the pet as well... but not as much as say 5-10 more stam or agility. (you see where I am getting at?)
No my friend, they are not bashing you because of your view, but the logic you show them is so screwed up no one sees it as a liable reason.
Even if you were to say the Mail gloves that the hunter had were way better than the rogue's and a nice leather gloves dropped, Then due to the fact the hunter already has say a Blue BoP mail from a quest or an instance prior to this one, and the rogue has some BoE of the bandit green on and has stats sitting in the 60 level range, then yes the hunter should bow out due to the fact his gear is already way better and the upgrade for him may only be slight vs the great improvement to the rogue.
This seems to me a better way to explain it than just saying hunters should aways pass on leather for a rogue even if it's a good upgrade for hunter as well.
Obviously
Agil, +AP, +Crit, +hit and +stam are things a hunter would want way before worrying about armor.
*EDIT* You also gotta remember that most of the gear you refer to is drops from another place. Why should a hunter wait to run something else or hope a different item drops when this one is sitting here for his chance to get it. That's everyone elses point.
Edited, Feb 20th 2008 10:42am by HitashLevat
Don't get warriors involved into this... it's painfully obvious you don't have a clue what the class is about anyway.
Please, just let this die already. Synn, I like you. You have no sense of humor, we've established that long ago, but I really like you. Now, despite that fact that you really want to get to 1k posts, I urge you to stop posting in this threat.
Hitash, you've gotten 1k just now... mission acomplished... just shh!
Scolariman, I've seen you before. You were a scholar. Now you're not. Take a hint.
North, I love you... you know I do.
Please, just let this die already. Synn, I like you. You have no sense of humor, we've established that long ago, but I really like you. Now, despite that fact that you really want to get to 1k posts, I urge you to stop posting in this threat.
Hitash, you've gotten 1k just now... mission acomplished... just shh!
Scolariman, I've seen you before. You were a scholar. Now you're not. Take a hint.
North, I love you... you know I do.
#93REDACTED,
Posted: Feb 20 2008 at 11:13 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So the warrior should be the one that waits and runs something else or hopes a different item drops? The warrior should wait and do the quests that give Plate gear but the Hunter shouldn't wait to get Mail gear from questing or another drop?
Utarius wrote:
Please, just let this die already. Synn, I like you. You have no sense of humor, we've established that long ago, but I really like you. Now, despite that fact that you really want to get to 1k posts, I urge you to stop posting in this threat.
I hate you. /sarcasm I have a sense of humor damnit, I laughed when I read this....
I was done posting in this thread with that last post, because I'm not going to repeat why his arguement is retarded, but I had to comment on this post of yours. Plus forums has been slow lately, it was good to have a long thread pop up, at least it didn't get to the flame bashing leet speak :-P
Edit: look see I'm resisting the urge to respond to the above response, it's hard but I'm resisting.
Edited, Feb 20th 2008 2:17pm by SynnTastic
Only 2 posts away, come on. :)
We want to hear your thought about my post. And the posts that say "Hunter's don't have to wait for Quest rewards or other drops...But Warriors do!!"
We want to hear your thought about my post. And the posts that say "Hunter's don't have to wait for Quest rewards or other drops...But Warriors do!!"
Have to post now sorry.
Scolariman you are just plain retarded, or oblivious, or you just don't read.
See we are saying if you need it roll, regardless of armor type.
You are the one saying they should find their gear elsewhere.
You are the one coming up with stupid excuses and reasonings for them to go somewhere else to find their gear.
You should read your own sig.
Because we(those that believe that hunters should be allowed to roll on leather) have at least acknowledged other people's oppinion and their reasoning behind why it should be prioritized to rogues first as being valid(not including yours because your arguement is just stupid). However, you go on arguing the same point, despite us having repeated ourselves time and again, and you conitnue coming up with a dumber post again and again. I'm tempted to try and attach a limbo sound bite to this thread to see just how low you will go into the depths of stupidity to come up with faulty reasoning.
With that being said, I am not at 999 posts and will not post in this thread again. :-)
Scolariman you are just plain retarded, or oblivious, or you just don't read.
I wrote:
If I am tanking a group with a fury warrior, rogue, hunter and a feral druid(yeah I know that's a 5 man party, but let's just pretend we are badass and don't need a healer lol) and a great piece of leather drop that's an upgrade for all of them. To me the most fair thing is to let them all have a chance at the piece.
Hitashlevit wrote:
Just showing you what your arguement looks like to everyone else. seriously. It is irrelivent. If a DPSer needs and item roll need. I don't give a damn what class they are or use they have of it. Unless it's a Dungeon set for a specific class theres no reason not to.
See we are saying if you need it roll, regardless of armor type.
You are the one saying they should find their gear elsewhere.
You are the one coming up with stupid excuses and reasonings for them to go somewhere else to find their gear.
You should read your own sig.
Quote:
close-mind·ed (klsmndd, klz-) or closed-mind·ed (klzd-)adj.
-Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas.
-Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas.
Because we(those that believe that hunters should be allowed to roll on leather) have at least acknowledged other people's oppinion and their reasoning behind why it should be prioritized to rogues first as being valid(not including yours because your arguement is just stupid). However, you go on arguing the same point, despite us having repeated ourselves time and again, and you conitnue coming up with a dumber post again and again. I'm tempted to try and attach a limbo sound bite to this thread to see just how low you will go into the depths of stupidity to come up with faulty reasoning.
With that being said, I am not at 999 posts and will not post in this thread again. :-)
Wow Synn, That is awesome. Nice way of putting it there. I had to re-read what you wrote for a second cause I was like... wait I didn't say it like that! lol. Good call man.
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