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Do we really generate that much threat?Follow
Scholar
34 posts
I'm currently leveling a rogue alt, just got into OL and is finally running some instances. Never ran an instance pre-58, no-one looking for groups on my server at that level. Anyway I'm swords combat specced. But my question is, do we really generate that much threat? I mean I've run ramps and BF like 6 times the last two days and I'm using fient EVERY time its on Cooldown but it seems like as soon as I use SnD I pull aggro. Now my main, soon to be dailies *****, is a 70 prot warrior so I know a thing or two about tanking, and admittedly the tanks I've grouped with aren't the best of the bunch. All I want to know is if there's anyway of lowering my threat a bit more. Or if I'm doing things right but I'm grouped with the 'nubsause' tanks for a while. Thanks in advance if anyone helps me.
I have a regular tank and priest that I instance with in Outlands who are both very good at their classes and only very rarely do I worry about my threat. As a matter of fact, I didn't even have feint on my toolbar (or keybound) until I started pug'ing with other tanks later in the game. I added it while in a pug in BFD (if memory serves) and have needed it occasionally in pugs ever since.
I didn't change my tactics from my usual tank to the pug. My weapons didn't change.... same rotations.... and I'm always top of the damage meter. All I can think of is that some tanks are just not very good at holding hate. And, honestly, it seems that threat is a bit more squirrely in Outland than it was in the old world.
Best I can suggest is that you use the DOTs, wait 1 sec after the tank starts hitting, feint, cross your fingers and pray.
Good luck out there!
I didn't change my tactics from my usual tank to the pug. My weapons didn't change.... same rotations.... and I'm always top of the damage meter. All I can think of is that some tanks are just not very good at holding hate. And, honestly, it seems that threat is a bit more squirrely in Outland than it was in the old world.
Best I can suggest is that you use the DOTs, wait 1 sec after the tank starts hitting, feint, cross your fingers and pray.
Good luck out there!
The chances are you are PUGing with warriors who aren't prot spec and therefore don't have shield slam.
Shield slam is a massive amount of threat at the beginning of a fight, and a very nice boost every time you have the rage once the fight is going.
Warriors without shield slam have a much harder time generating initial threat and their threat gain throughout the fight is much more linear, whereas warriors with shield slam will have linear threat gain with spikes from shield slam/revenge back to back.
You may want to consider just holding back for about 7 seconds on boss fights before joining in. 7 seconds should be enough time for the warrior to get in 3 sunders and a revenge. Then, when the boss gets to 70-80% HP just vanish and start all over. If you are still pulling hate after a vanish, add that tank to your DO NOT GROUP WITH list because they really suck.
Shield slam is a massive amount of threat at the beginning of a fight, and a very nice boost every time you have the rage once the fight is going.
Warriors without shield slam have a much harder time generating initial threat and their threat gain throughout the fight is much more linear, whereas warriors with shield slam will have linear threat gain with spikes from shield slam/revenge back to back.
You may want to consider just holding back for about 7 seconds on boss fights before joining in. 7 seconds should be enough time for the warrior to get in 3 sunders and a revenge. Then, when the boss gets to 70-80% HP just vanish and start all over. If you are still pulling hate after a vanish, add that tank to your DO NOT GROUP WITH list because they really suck.
I haven't had to use feint at all in any groups I've been in. Sure, every now and then I pick up aggro, but the tank usually gets it right back in a second. I've noticed that some rogues stay back or pull a mob away from the tank, which isn't good. This is why I stay right next to them, that way if I do aggro, they're able to pull back.
I think I would have to agree with the two above. The warriors you group with may not have the abilities to keep aggro, or they just really suck.
EDIT : Spelling errors
Edited, Feb 8th 2008 3:54pm by xNocturnalSunx
I think I would have to agree with the two above. The warriors you group with may not have the abilities to keep aggro, or they just really suck.
EDIT : Spelling errors
Edited, Feb 8th 2008 3:54pm by xNocturnalSunx
We have an innate threat reduction and a complete threat wipe, no you shouldn't be pulling aggro unless you started too quick, chain-crit early, or the tank sucks/is not prot. The tank spec shouldn't really matter, I have done 70 instances with Fury/Arms before and didn't pull off the good ones either way.
Yeah it's most likely the tanks. Usually I'll wait a little bit longer to engage the mob if I get in a group where I'm pulling agro off the tank.
Good point about shield slam. From what I've heard it's a must-have warrior tank ability.
But... In my opinion any warrior claiming to be a tank in Outland damn well better be prot spec'd. I have nothing at all against Fury or Arms warriors (actually just started a fury war myself) and I've seen them tank lower-level instances. But by the time you're running BF and Ramps you're going to be in a world of problems without a serious investment in the prot tree. Most leveling warriors I know in-game agree that respec'ing should happen around level 60.
Of course, I don't play a warrior in Outland and can only refer to what I've heard/been told from players who do. So, grain of salt. And if there's a differing opinion out there, please share it.
But... In my opinion any warrior claiming to be a tank in Outland damn well better be prot spec'd. I have nothing at all against Fury or Arms warriors (actually just started a fury war myself) and I've seen them tank lower-level instances. But by the time you're running BF and Ramps you're going to be in a world of problems without a serious investment in the prot tree. Most leveling warriors I know in-game agree that respec'ing should happen around level 60.
Of course, I don't play a warrior in Outland and can only refer to what I've heard/been told from players who do. So, grain of salt. And if there's a differing opinion out there, please share it.
Blessing of Salvation is your friend.
An example happened last night. Was in Slabs with a few friends and kept passing up my tank friend's threat (although I didn't gain aggro) because she did a good job keeping it on her. This was a good run, because I managed to be on top of the chart in damage and able to produce more dps without having to back off. (Which is weird because she's much more geared than I am, and I was surprised that I was at the top of the damage meter).
Edited, Feb 9th 2008 8:45am by xNocturnalSunx
Edited, Feb 9th 2008 8:45am by xNocturnalSunx
I can put out around 900+ dps on a fight that is rogue friendly. 900 dps=a lot of threat. Even with our passive threat reduction, Blessing of Salvation is great. Even with both of these, I would pull the boss onto myself if I didn't use vanish at some point in the fight.
My standard procedure is to let the tank get ~10k threat up on the target then start attacking. This gives a nice buffer zone in case I have a bundle of crits or a lot of sword procs. Then once I hit about even to the tank on threat I Vanish and all my threat goes away and I get to start all over from zero. Works wonders.
At your level, ~2k threat built up by the tank should be fine. Also try to run with people who have Omen so you can watch your threat.
My standard procedure is to let the tank get ~10k threat up on the target then start attacking. This gives a nice buffer zone in case I have a bundle of crits or a lot of sword procs. Then once I hit about even to the tank on threat I Vanish and all my threat goes away and I get to start all over from zero. Works wonders.
At your level, ~2k threat built up by the tank should be fine. Also try to run with people who have Omen so you can watch your threat.
Nocthil wrote:
At your level, ~2k threat built up by the tank should be fine. Also try to run with people who have Omen so you can watch your threat.
Omen was irritating last night.. all I kept hearing was that warning sound.
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
Omen was irritating last night.. all I kept hearing was that warning sound.
You can configure the warning sound / red screen flash to go off at different threat threshold boundaries.
I think I remember reading somewhere (please correct me on exact numbers) that in order to pull threat for melee you have to have 120% of the tanks threat... So you don't actually pull hate until you are over the threat that the tank is generating, not as soon as you match it.
So if your omen is set to go off when you are at 90% chances are you are just skirting the edges of *pushing it*... at least if 120% is your boundary then you still have a fair amount of leeway.
I honestly have very very little experience with threat meters but from what I have seen & from what I have heard I think that the above is true.
If thats true Flubgaurd, then set it at 100-110% for taunt-able, since Vanish wipes threat so the tank after taunt should have no issue regaining the mob's focus.
I think on my Rogue, Omen was set on 95% when I was still Daggers if I had Salv, 85% if I had Might/Kings.
I think on my Rogue, Omen was set on 95% when I was still Daggers if I had Salv, 85% if I had Might/Kings.
In melee range, it takes 110% of the tanks aggro to pull it off. Outside the 5 yard range, it's 130%.
Haven't found too much of an issue with threat. It was a lot harder when I was 60 then 70.
Raided SSC yesterday and was 2nd top dps. I didn't have salv either. I dps using feint rarely. On fights when agro is an issue I will generally dps using feint until the boss is down 10-15% then vanish and go all out without worrying about feint. By the time vanish is up again I am riding the tanks threat and re-vanish.
Raided SSC yesterday and was 2nd top dps. I didn't have salv either. I dps using feint rarely. On fights when agro is an issue I will generally dps using feint until the boss is down 10-15% then vanish and go all out without worrying about feint. By the time vanish is up again I am riding the tanks threat and re-vanish.
Velustu wrote:
All I want to know is if there's anyway of lowering my threat a bit more. Or if I'm doing things right but I'm grouped with the 'nubsause' tanks for a while.
Every tank has his given threat generation, and unless your healer overaggros the tank, which usually ends the adventure, you need to adapt.
- get salvation if available - this usually solves all aggro problems
- use different poisons: anesthetic instead of instant for bosses, numbing and crippling for the trash (if things are really bad, maybe even double anesthetic)
- use CC finishers and feint
- vanish at the right moment: I would say at 80% with good tank, 70% with bad one. Until then hold it.
- change AP food to stamina (heh)
- use threat meters - sometimes the tank will have one! Duh...
Now that is not quite serious, but there is threat reduction cloak enchant...
Quote:
Good point about shield slam. From what I've heard it's a must-have warrior tank ability.
But... In my opinion any warrior claiming to be a tank in Outland damn well better be prot spec'd. I have nothing at all against Fury or Arms warriors (actually just started a fury war myself) and I've seen them tank lower-level instances. But by the time you're running BF and Ramps you're going to be in a world of problems without a serious investment in the prot tree. Most leveling warriors I know in-game agree that respec'ing should happen around level 60.
But... In my opinion any warrior claiming to be a tank in Outland damn well better be prot spec'd. I have nothing at all against Fury or Arms warriors (actually just started a fury war myself) and I've seen them tank lower-level instances. But by the time you're running BF and Ramps you're going to be in a world of problems without a serious investment in the prot tree. Most leveling warriors I know in-game agree that respec'ing should happen around level 60.
Shield Slam isn't actually all that. The bigger difference is Defiance (15% more threat). Either way, expect while leveling that not all of your tanks will be specced for it (or any good, which is interchangeable). Adapting to that is going to be your problem.
But respeccing to Prot at 60 unless you have a dedicated group is, frankly, retarded. And if you have a dedicated group, it won't be a surprise to the people running with you.
It's not that shield slam by itself is that good, but when a tank can throw out a shield slam, followed up by a revenge within the first 10 seconds of a fight.
Those 2 abilities alone should give him well over 2k threat, and probably closer to 4k if the shield slam happens to crit.
I admit if your tank isn't level 70, the chances he is prot spec are slim to none, which means he probably doesn't have shield slam. He should still be tanking in defensive stane and should still be able to throw out a couple of sunders and hopefully a revenge before you have to start DPS.
If your healer is good, you can make the fights in any 5-man go on as long as your healer has mana. Let the tank get some threat before starting DPS. And on boss fights vanish in the 70-80% boss health range.
Those 2 abilities alone should give him well over 2k threat, and probably closer to 4k if the shield slam happens to crit.
I admit if your tank isn't level 70, the chances he is prot spec are slim to none, which means he probably doesn't have shield slam. He should still be tanking in defensive stane and should still be able to throw out a couple of sunders and hopefully a revenge before you have to start DPS.
If your healer is good, you can make the fights in any 5-man go on as long as your healer has mana. Let the tank get some threat before starting DPS. And on boss fights vanish in the 70-80% boss health range.
Well rogue isn't the most agro magnet (For example spriest build agro way better due to grp regen)
Another thing to note as that best DPS buff is Blessing Of Salvation, rogue (esp good geared) can't deal effective damage without it.
So you will benefit gretly from grouping with paladin
Another thing to note as that best DPS buff is Blessing Of Salvation, rogue (esp good geared) can't deal effective damage without it.
So you will benefit gretly from grouping with paladin
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
Nocthil wrote:
At your level, ~2k threat built up by the tank should be fine. Also try to run with people who have Omen so you can watch your threat.
Omen was irritating last night.. all I kept hearing was that warning sound.
I have mine set to the sound of a crowd cheering. It makes me laugh every time it triggers.
Quote:
But respeccing to Prot at 60 unless you have a dedicated group is, frankly, retarded. And if you have a dedicated group, it won't be a surprise to the people running with you.
I stand corrected. After asking around again the majority opinion was that arms or fury could be fine for tanking up to raiding (read: 70) with some specific gear switching. Only a minority strongly suggested respec'ing at 60; mainly for learning purposes and that a single group role is easier to gear for.
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
Quote:
But respeccing to Prot at 60 unless you have a dedicated group is, frankly, retarded. And if you have a dedicated group, it won't be a surprise to the people running with you.
I stand corrected. After asking around again the majority opinion was that arms or fury could be fine for tanking up to raiding (read: 70) with some specific gear switching. Only a minority strongly suggested respec'ing at 60; mainly for learning purposes and that a single group role is easier to gear for.
there is absolutely no need for a warrior tank to respec prot before level 70. the main draw of the prot tree is more TPS; second is additional mitigation/oh **** buttons. any warrior tank with the correct gear should be able to tank up to and including level 70 regular instances, even in a 17/44 dual wield fury spec.
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