So a blue post says that Envenom will no longer get rid of your stack of Deadly
Poison.
Does this do anything for Envenom's spot as whipping boy of the rogue finishers?
Edit: Based on my crude math, envenom does more damage than rupture at around 667 AP.
Edited, Feb 6th 2008 4:37pm by Bigdaddyjug
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You still have to use deadly poison.
PvE buff, same ole same ole in PvP.
PvE buff, same ole same ole in PvP.
Shao, I was referring to PVE, sorry if I didn't specify.
I figured anybody whose response was worth a damn would realize it had to apply to PVE since any rogue worth his salt should be using wound/crip in PVP (and possibly weapon swapping to Shiv on mind numbing).
So, is it a buff or will it just be an alternative way of achieving similar DPS?
Edit: Also need to point out that Envenom costs 35 energy, whereas Rupture costs 25.
Edited, Feb 6th 2008 4:49pm by Bigdaddyjug
I figured anybody whose response was worth a damn would realize it had to apply to PVE since any rogue worth his salt should be using wound/crip in PVP (and possibly weapon swapping to Shiv on mind numbing).
So, is it a buff or will it just be an alternative way of achieving similar DPS?
Edit: Also need to point out that Envenom costs 35 energy, whereas Rupture costs 25.
Edited, Feb 6th 2008 4:49pm by Bigdaddyjug
Possibly useful for the two or three Mutilate Rogues still doing PvE. Otherwise, no. Without DP, at no point does Envenom outdamage Rupture.
Wow, RP you totally confused me there.
Situation:
Rogue in a Kara raid, Deadly MH, Instant OH. Rogue has about 1600 AP raid buffed.
Goes into a 2s/5x cycle, ruptures on the first 5x as his deadly poison isn't stacked to 5 yet. Every 5x cycle after the first there is a full stack of deadly on the target so rogue uses envenom instead of rupture. With 1600 AP envenom does about 200 more damage than rupture, but costs 10 more energy.
Is 200 more damage per 2s/5x cycle with each cycle costing 10 more energy going to lead to a DPS increase? Is the extra 10 energy per cycle going to cause any issues with keeping the cycles up?
Situation:
Rogue in a Kara raid, Deadly MH, Instant OH. Rogue has about 1600 AP raid buffed.
Goes into a 2s/5x cycle, ruptures on the first 5x as his deadly poison isn't stacked to 5 yet. Every 5x cycle after the first there is a full stack of deadly on the target so rogue uses envenom instead of rupture. With 1600 AP envenom does about 200 more damage than rupture, but costs 10 more energy.
Is 200 more damage per 2s/5x cycle with each cycle costing 10 more energy going to lead to a DPS increase? Is the extra 10 energy per cycle going to cause any issues with keeping the cycles up?
So get Vile Poison then?
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboyZGcV0bVzxMGkt
Evenom should hit harder then Rupture with this - even more so if it crits - and there's no dps lost because you need to re-apply Deadly.
I would think the lost of 1 point in Lethality is more then made up by having your Deadly Poison do 20% more damage. Even more so if you're not paired with a Shaman (for whatever reason) since the 20% increase will help your instant poison.
What do you think, O all knowing Rp? ;P
While it's not awesome in pvp or anything, I usually use MindNumbing/Deadly when I do 3 (warrior MS and hamstring make wound/crip redundant) and a cold blood Envenom is already more useful then a cold blood evis when dealing with mail+ target... this would only make it better.
Edited, Feb 6th 2008 6:42pm by Tyrandor
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboyZGcV0bVzxMGkt
Evenom should hit harder then Rupture with this - even more so if it crits - and there's no dps lost because you need to re-apply Deadly.
I would think the lost of 1 point in Lethality is more then made up by having your Deadly Poison do 20% more damage. Even more so if you're not paired with a Shaman (for whatever reason) since the 20% increase will help your instant poison.
What do you think, O all knowing Rp? ;P
While it's not awesome in pvp or anything, I usually use MindNumbing/Deadly when I do 3 (warrior MS and hamstring make wound/crip redundant) and a cold blood Envenom is already more useful then a cold blood evis when dealing with mail+ target... this would only make it better.
Edited, Feb 6th 2008 6:42pm by Tyrandor
maybe useful in 1v1 vs warriors, since i deadly and tank them, but use other finishers... this would prove a nice buff to me at least
With vile poisons I can definitely see an increase in PVE DPS.
I like it. I think I have a new spec for 2.4 patch.
I like it. I think I have a new spec for 2.4 patch.
Did PvE rogues really need a DPS increase? From what I remember they owned everyone already anyway...
Where's the pvp love :/
Where's the pvp love :/
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
So get Vile Poison then?
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboyZGcV0bVzxMGkt
Evenom should hit harder then Rupture with this - even more so if it crits - and there's no dps lost because you need to re-apply Deadly.
I would think the lost of 1 point in Lethality is more then made up by having your Deadly Poison do 20% more damage. Even more so if you're not paired with a Shaman (for whatever reason) since the 20% increase will help your instant poison.
What do you think, O all knowing Rp? ;P
While it's not awesome in pvp or anything, I usually use MindNumbing/Deadly when I do 3 (warrior MS and hamstring make wound/crip redundant) and a cold blood Envenom is already more useful then a cold blood evis when dealing with mail+ target... this would only make it better.
Edited, Feb 6th 2008 6:42pm by Tyrandor
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboyZGcV0bVzxMGkt
Evenom should hit harder then Rupture with this - even more so if it crits - and there's no dps lost because you need to re-apply Deadly.
I would think the lost of 1 point in Lethality is more then made up by having your Deadly Poison do 20% more damage. Even more so if you're not paired with a Shaman (for whatever reason) since the 20% increase will help your instant poison.
What do you think, O all knowing Rp? ;P
While it's not awesome in pvp or anything, I usually use MindNumbing/Deadly when I do 3 (warrior MS and hamstring make wound/crip redundant) and a cold blood Envenom is already more useful then a cold blood evis when dealing with mail+ target... this would only make it better.
Edited, Feb 6th 2008 6:42pm by Tyrandor
Yeah, I meant VP. I also failed to compensate for crits here.
Looking at 5-point Envenom with 5/5 VP vs. 5-point Rupture with Mangle (PvE, obviously) and a 30% crit rate...
(900 + AP * 0.15) * 1.3 * 1.2
(1000 damage + AP * .24) * 1.3
1404 + AP * .234
1300 + AP * .312
104 = .078 * AP
1333 = AP
Above 1333 AP, Rupture is still superior (assuming Mangle, of course). *shrug*
Yeah, envenom will be better than rupture, especially at T5/T6 gear levels. We were already seeing rogues at those levels situationally using Evis as a finisher because of crit%s and scaling, but this is going to be better than rupture almost always, because it ignores armor, and can crit in addition to normal damage.
Especially if you have an Enhancement Shaman with you. Wait for Stormstrike to go up, and bam.
Mut rogues are going to be drooling over this.
Especially if you have an Enhancement Shaman with you. Wait for Stormstrike to go up, and bam.
Mut rogues are going to be drooling over this.
Theophany the Sly wrote:
Yeah, envenom will be better than rupture, especially at T5/T6 gear levels. We were already seeing rogues at those levels situationally using Evis as a finisher because of crit%s and scaling, but this is going to be better than rupture almost always, because it ignores armor, and can crit in addition to normal damage.
Especially if you have an Enhancement Shaman with you. Wait for Stormstrike to go up, and bam.
Mut rogues are going to be drooling over this.
Especially if you have an Enhancement Shaman with you. Wait for Stormstrike to go up, and bam.
Mut rogues are going to be drooling over this.
Quote:
Above 1333 AP, Rupture is still superior (assuming Mangle, of course). *shrug*
Rupture ignores armor too.
Raid buffed rogues aren't going to only have 30% crit, RP. Maybe unbuffed, but buffed is a whole different story.
Then again, they're not going to have 1333 AP either, but you didn't prove your point by just randomly assigning 30% crit.
If you also didn't include Vile Poisons, you should. 20% damage isn't insignificant.
Do the math right, don't randomly throw out numbers.
Then again, they're not going to have 1333 AP either, but you didn't prove your point by just randomly assigning 30% crit.
If you also didn't include Vile Poisons, you should. 20% damage isn't insignificant.
Do the math right, don't randomly throw out numbers.
I think this throws a monkey wrench at envenom/blind.
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
So a blue post says that Envenom will no longer get rid of your stack of Deadly
Poison.
Poison.
I'd rather see Envenom no longer get rid of my stack of Combo Points.
Theophany the Sly wrote:
Raid buffed rogues aren't going to only have 30% crit, RP. Maybe unbuffed, but buffed is a whole different story.
Then again, they're not going to have 1333 AP either, but you didn't prove your point by just randomly assigning 30% crit.
If you also didn't include Vile Poisons, you should. 20% damage isn't insignificant.
Do the math right, don't randomly throw out numbers.
Then again, they're not going to have 1333 AP either, but you didn't prove your point by just randomly assigning 30% crit.
If you also didn't include Vile Poisons, you should. 20% damage isn't insignificant.
Do the math right, don't randomly throw out numbers.
I did include VP. Hence the problem.
But let's go with 40% crit for ***** and giggles.
(900 + AP * 0.15) * 1.4 * 1.2
(1000 damage + AP * .24) * 1.3
1512 + AP * .252
1300 + AP * .312
212 = .060 * AP
3533 = AP
So, with a rather whopping 40% critrate you'd only need 3500 AP... which, in terms of full raid buffs, still isn't terribly high.
Still not seeing the benefit, or any real DPS increase in terms of raid rotations.
AHEM:
significant upgrade to mutilate instant damage.
The buff will also make backstab more like feint #2.
Not my words.
significant upgrade to mutilate instant damage.
The buff will also make backstab more like feint #2.
Not my words.
Well then, that makes the change pretty damn useless.
I'm tempted to say it's fake because of that... why make a useless change? But if we follow that logic, envenom wouldn't have made it in the game at all.
I'm tempted to say it's fake because of that... why make a useless change? But if we follow that logic, envenom wouldn't have made it in the game at all.
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