I'm not to worried about my stats for tanking heroics, but more how to actually do it. Now for heroics, I'm talking about just heroic ramps/furnace since my gear is still a little soft; all blues and gem/enchanted but still not anything special.
I usually start out the normal dungeons using avenger shield to pull and start building some easy aggro, then hit concecrate and go from there. I usually end up pulling 3 or 4 mobs at a time and don't have any problem holding aggro or even just surviving. With heroics though, I know that the mobs are quite a lot stronger.
I tried running heroic ramps a few days ago, and just couldn't quite get the hang of it since the rogue I was with would always sap, making it impossible to pull with avenger shield and making gaining aggro a little more difficult. Long story short, didn't do to well, only got to first boss before group fell apart due to time constraints.
So I've been thinking that having a hunter as cc would be better for me since I could then always pull with avenger shield and just have hunter trap one mob while the other 2 (usually in groups of 3 it seems) use me as a punching bag and the dps guys just do their thing.
How do other pally tanks handle beginning heroics where your gear is not bad, but nothing epic? Also if I can't find a hunter for cc and am stuck with a rogue, should I let him sap the target and then just pull the other mobs by running into their aggro radius?
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Tell the rogue to wait to sap AFTER the avenger's shield pull. AV is random in its targets, and cc should be applied post pull.
You can do it with the rogue, he just has to know when to sap.
You can do it with the rogue, he just has to know when to sap.
hcddog wrote:
Tell the rogue to wait to sap AFTER the avenger's shield pull. AV is random in its targets, and cc should be applied post pull.
You can do it with the rogue, he just has to know when to sap.
You can do it with the rogue, he just has to know when to sap.
might help if you knew how to sap.
sap cant be used in combat or on a target in combat.
To address the OPs question, do you really need to pull with AS?
Edited, Feb 5th 2008 8:54pm by KTurner
TBH that's the way that I've just become used to while tanking the non-heroic dungeons, easy way to start gaining aggro, especially when some of my dps guys are a little more well geared than I am. But I am completely open to any ideas.
Have been thinking about just having rogue sap and then running up to target to gain aggro, then use avenger shield/consecrate. Any thoughts?
Have been thinking about just having rogue sap and then running up to target to gain aggro, then use avenger shield/consecrate. Any thoughts?
I generally need the threat from the AS, so I either go without a rogue (my preference), or make sure I have adequate coverage from the other members for CC.
No one EVER NEEDS the thread from AS. Is it nice? Yes. Can you tank without it? Definately. Just tell the others not to dps for a few seconds as you get yourself set up. Communication is key here.
When you still have lower quality gear and need some CC go with Mage, then Hunter, then Warlock, then if all else fails, get a Rogue. Avoid sap whenever possible, but if you really need a sap, just make sure the DPS knows to give you a couple more seconds for aggro since you will be Judgement pulling.
Also, I may be wrong and sorry if so, but the way you stated that you were starting with Ramps/BF made it seem to me that you were doing so because, 'They were the lowest level regular instances, they should be the easiest Heroics.' Don't let that fool you. I actually find that Slave Pens and Mech are the easiest Heroics to do. This thinking is particularly flawed when looking at Caverns of Time: Black Morass is MUCH easier than Old Hillsbrad on Heroic mode.
No offense or disrespect intended, just want to make sure any misconceptions that may be there are clear :)
Also, I may be wrong and sorry if so, but the way you stated that you were starting with Ramps/BF made it seem to me that you were doing so because, 'They were the lowest level regular instances, they should be the easiest Heroics.' Don't let that fool you. I actually find that Slave Pens and Mech are the easiest Heroics to do. This thinking is particularly flawed when looking at Caverns of Time: Black Morass is MUCH easier than Old Hillsbrad on Heroic mode.
No offense or disrespect intended, just want to make sure any misconceptions that may be there are clear :)
KTurner wrote:
hcddog wrote:
Tell the rogue to wait to sap AFTER the avenger's shield pull. AV is random in its targets, and cc should be applied post pull.
You can do it with the rogue, he just has to know when to sap.
You can do it with the rogue, he just has to know when to sap.
might help if you knew how to sap.
sap cant be used in combat or on a target in combat.
To address the OPs question, do you really need to pull with AS?
Edited, Feb 5th 2008 8:54pm by KTurner
whoops, shows how much I know about rogues.
Nevermind :P
No you're totally right maul, I have always heard from fellow guildies that since ramps/furnace are the first instances you'll hit in outland, then it should be the same for heroics. So a very basic, just good enough to maybe enter kara, geared pally could tank heroic slave pens? Don't think I'll even try tanking heroic mech quite yet, think I'll wait till I have a few epics and a little experience being an OT for kara groups.
I would think so. Slave Pens was my first Heroic, but I already had a few items from Kara before I attempted it. It just really intimidated me at first, and sometimes still does. Old Hillsbrad is the only one I haven't completed yet (only had a group once, and they sucked :S). But I think as long as you're uncrittable with a good amount of health, you should be fine to go into SP at the very least.
maskofdeath wrote:
So a very basic, just good enough to maybe enter kara, geared pally could tank heroic slave pens?
Slave pens is certainly one of the easier ones. Not too much damage, but definitely a ramp up. Mech's hardest part on heroic(not including the pain in the *** fire *****) is the damage done by the destroyers(or whatever they're called) while their hands are all glowy. I believe you could just have a rogue stun them for the duration of that, though we never have a rogue to try.
Im no tanking expert yet, and because of this i rarely use AS just because i forget.
I ran regular SV with a T5 rogue last weekend and aggro wasnt a problem just using the basics. We didnt need any CC of course, but the point is aggro was fine.
Unfortunately as i pile on the tank gear my spell damage just keeps plummeting. /cry. got that jade whatchamacallit chest piece in mech last night, first try woot
I ran regular SV with a T5 rogue last weekend and aggro wasnt a problem just using the basics. We didnt need any CC of course, but the point is aggro was fine.
Unfortunately as i pile on the tank gear my spell damage just keeps plummeting. /cry. got that jade whatchamacallit chest piece in mech last night, first try woot
Heroic Mech is by far the easiest farm for pally(<3 demons). easiest with a lock. i've downed the 'fire *****' at least 15 times, only once with a warrior tank. save your stun for the Destroyer's 1st charged fist and you might have CD for the last fist. the rest is cake.
for KT, those badge rewards are sweet and include +spell. i replaced my chest last week. one of the best purchases i've made yet.
for KT, those badge rewards are sweet and include +spell. i replaced my chest last week. one of the best purchases i've made yet.
You can expect your spell damage to plumit down to just your weapon as you gear through Karazhan, but as soon as you start getting Tier gear and enough Badges it will go back up: with Badges you can get chest, belt, boots (did I miss anything?). If you're a Blacksmith though I'd recommend the pattern from SSC/TK for boots (it's BoE) and I also recommend getting the crafted belt (plans for that are BoP, but the item itself is BoE) if you know someone who you can use their Vortexs.
You really do have to be careful with AS in heroics with those occasional bounce offs being treacherous to pulls. I love hunters for this exact reason. Misdirection is a lovely pull if available. If you dont have a hunter just resort to body pulls and LOS any casters.
Definitely try Slave Pens first. Its by far the most straight forward heroic you will run early on. I would leave ramps and BF until having successfully run Underbog and Mechanar.
If I can help it I'd rather not group with a rogue. As good as their dps is it doesnt complement paladin tanking, especially when they start stun locking. (sigh) How many times must they be told not to stun lock?
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Mech's hardest part on heroic(not including the pain in the *** fire *****) is the damage done by the destroyers(or whatever they're called) while their hands are all glowy. I believe you could just have a rogue stun them for the duration of that, though we never have a rogue to try.
If you have a rogue (or a dps warrior) (or a shaman) you can interrupt their casting of that. You'll find it a lot easier. :)
I personally almost never use AS. It's too unpredictable. When I first started tanking Heroics, I started with Slave Pens and Underbog. Those were cake, and moved up to Ramps. I'm actually still on Ramps/Mech.
Since I play a BE I use Mana Tap to it's full advantage. If there's a caster, I'll tap it and then toss up Holy Shield so I can get aggro before my SoR is up (My mana pool is TERRIBLE so I almost always judge Wisdom.)
Only time I use AS is against bossed, and sometimes I won't even do that because of the mana consumption.
Since I play a BE I use Mana Tap to it's full advantage. If there's a caster, I'll tap it and then toss up Holy Shield so I can get aggro before my SoR is up (My mana pool is TERRIBLE so I almost always judge Wisdom.)
Only time I use AS is against bossed, and sometimes I won't even do that because of the mana consumption.
Jungabon wrote:
I personally almost never use AS. It's too unpredictable. When I first started tanking Heroics, I started with Slave Pens and Underbog. Those were cake, and moved up to Ramps. I'm actually still on Ramps/Mech.
Since I play a BE I use Mana Tap to it's full advantage. If there's a caster, I'll tap it and then toss up Holy Shield so I can get aggro before my SoR is up (My mana pool is TERRIBLE so I almost always judge Wisdom.)
Only time I use AS is against bossed, and sometimes I won't even do that because of the mana consumption.
Since I play a BE I use Mana Tap to it's full advantage. If there's a caster, I'll tap it and then toss up Holy Shield so I can get aggro before my SoR is up (My mana pool is TERRIBLE so I almost always judge Wisdom.)
Only time I use AS is against bossed, and sometimes I won't even do that because of the mana consumption.
It is unpredictable, but that should only be an issue when using CC before the pull. Sometimes it bounces off to some random critter walking around nearby, but unless you have a pather coming close (in which case you shouldn't be pulling anyway), there's no reason it's unpredictability should be a reason not to use AS. I'm not saying you have to or that it's wrong not to, but I like to be thorough. Some newer tank may see that and go, "Oh, I could potentially bounce AS and get 2 groups, so I won't use it." Very very rarely should that be an issue cause groups are spread too far apart for that to happen.
And about your mana pool: yea, mine is terrible too :P That's why we get it back by being healed ;) ;)
Ialaman wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Mech's hardest part on heroic(not including the pain in the *** fire *****) is the damage done by the destroyers(or whatever they're called) while their hands are all glowy. I believe you could just have a rogue stun them for the duration of that, though we never have a rogue to try.
If you have a rogue (or a dps warrior) (or a shaman) you can interrupt their casting of that. You'll find it a lot easier. :)
We almost never run with those, and I've tried counterspelling it to no avail, so I wasn't sure that kick/pummel/earth shock would work, but I was pretty sure I'd seen em stunned before.
New heroic pala:
With all blue i started off in heroic SP, which went fine, then tried UB which was ok. Both times it was scary as hell, close to wipes a fair few times. Ramps went ok the the caster pull after the first boss was just nasty and caused a break up after one wipe...
Now i've moved on and did mech, here the destoyers and their "charged fist" just broke me, got around this my having it hamstung/slowed and me using AV and judging SoR every cooldown and for the most part not being hit (running like hell on the charged fist).
My comments about group - Don't get a druid healer, it's just not nice, they have drop form to give you big heals making them burn their mana pretty fast (at least at low gear levels it just doesn't work for me).
Get mage(s) if you can, sheep works so well with paladin tanking. Hunter trapping is tricky as they have to really fight to get over your AV agro, seduce is ok but expect problems when the sucubus gets one shotted.
I think being uncrushable is a lot less important than having a slightly larger HP pool in heroics, if you have any items you can swap easily to get HP, and using elixirs and food helps (elixir of mastery and the 250hp and 10hp5 one), i have two stam trinks (furies deck and the heroic UB trink) aswel as defense ones.
Spell wise - Holy shield always up, if you pull with AV you can BoW judge then SoR, otherwise bring plenty of water ^^ I find having the reduced judgement CD a godsend for bringing up your agro quickly.
Hope thats some help.
With all blue i started off in heroic SP, which went fine, then tried UB which was ok. Both times it was scary as hell, close to wipes a fair few times. Ramps went ok the the caster pull after the first boss was just nasty and caused a break up after one wipe...
Now i've moved on and did mech, here the destoyers and their "charged fist" just broke me, got around this my having it hamstung/slowed and me using AV and judging SoR every cooldown and for the most part not being hit (running like hell on the charged fist).
My comments about group - Don't get a druid healer, it's just not nice, they have drop form to give you big heals making them burn their mana pretty fast (at least at low gear levels it just doesn't work for me).
Get mage(s) if you can, sheep works so well with paladin tanking. Hunter trapping is tricky as they have to really fight to get over your AV agro, seduce is ok but expect problems when the sucubus gets one shotted.
I think being uncrushable is a lot less important than having a slightly larger HP pool in heroics, if you have any items you can swap easily to get HP, and using elixirs and food helps (elixir of mastery and the 250hp and 10hp5 one), i have two stam trinks (furies deck and the heroic UB trink) aswel as defense ones.
Spell wise - Holy shield always up, if you pull with AV you can BoW judge then SoR, otherwise bring plenty of water ^^ I find having the reduced judgement CD a godsend for bringing up your agro quickly.
Hope thats some help.
Maulgak wrote:
It is unpredictable, but that should only be an issue when using CC before the pull. Sometimes it bounces off to some random critter walking around nearby, but unless you have a pather coming close (in which case you shouldn't be pulling anyway), there's no reason it's unpredictability should be a reason not to use AS. I'm not saying you have to or that it's wrong not to, but I like to be thorough. Some newer tank may see that and go, "Oh, I could potentially bounce AS and get 2 groups, so I won't use it." Very very rarely should that be an issue cause groups are spread too far apart for that to happen.
And about your mana pool: yea, mine is terrible too :P That's why we get it back by being healed ;) ;)
And about your mana pool: yea, mine is terrible too :P That's why we get it back by being healed ;) ;)
Well one of the main reasons why it's too unpredictable for me to find it useful for pulling trash is I play with a Hunter at almost all times. He's like my instance buddy, and there's been a few times where we wiped because he didn't have the raw power to get aggro off me fast enough and I just simply took too much damage.
But then again that was when we first started to do Heroics and he was in mostly blues. Just got out of the habit of using it.
Ah true. If you're needing a Hunter to trap, probably best not to use AS unless you know you can avoid his trap target. Other thing, make sure the Hunter has Might instead of Salv.
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