Wait a second, you clearly forgot we're comparing mages to locks right here, so did you even bother checking, if the classes you have problems with give us mages an even harder time?
Probably I shouldn't even post here, because all the last week my latency was so bad, that even afk players are a problem for me. (and of course I'm depressed and pissed off)
BUT: As a SL/SL lock with decent gear, (especially resil above 400) you just shouldn't take much damage at all... I mean what am I supposed to say? Lock gear has in average more stam, and in some cases more resil, not to mention the additional benefit to stam you get. Also there is soullink. So if you are whining about all those massive crits you take, then think what playing a mage is like in the same situation and go figure... Can't really say much more about it...
As for the spells, I also often have problems with instants. I probably get out one frostbolt, when noone focuses me yet, a fireblast, probably nova + Icelance, but with the insane spelldamage my PvP-gear has (hear the silent drippling of irony?) he won't have lost too much hp compared to his ~12k. Then I go on with CoC and AE or AM (I'm afraight to expose my arcane school...). Many classes can be done like this, but its:
a)mana-consuming
b)frustrating to spam **** because of the lack of thought-trough spells
c)It takes long, because all the aoe does mostly crap damage
d)the dps is too low to bring down certain healers, although it must be said, that vs most healers casting is also possible, making it a bit fairer. Still sucks if some hunter is shooting you, while you have no good instants to finish off some healer.
I'm still of the opinion, that a decent lock will just pretty much lock down any mage, and do solid dps, while the mage is busy defending and won't have much chance at all to do any real damage.
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11 posts
Why is that everyone forgets about CS and SS. those are the key to beating any other caster class. CS the lock, Nova the Demon, PoM, Pyro, Fire Blast, mana shield, when they hit you with fear again Ice block. i mean im not seeing why a Lock is trouble for any mages that skillfully use the spells at their disposal.
Quote:
Why is that everyone forgets about CS and SS. those are the key to beating any other caster class. CS the lock, Nova the Demon, PoM, Pyro, Fire Blast, mana shield, when they hit you with fear again Ice block. i mean im not seeing why a Lock is trouble for any mages that skillfully use the spells at their disposal.
Lol... yeah, if the lock just stands there. If you get the drop on the lock, you can CS him, frost nova the pet (which doesn't stop it from silencing you), and if the lock has reslience, then your POM Pyro won't hit for nearly as much. When you get dotted up, ice block, come out of it and you get deathcoiled, followed by another fear and a bunch of dots, followed by a /lol.
I've said it a million times, as both a mage and a lock, good mages get beat by average locks. A good mage can beat a bad lock, but locks just have all the right tools to beat a mage. Similarly, rogues have all the right tools to beat locks AND mages.
As far as the lock vs. Mage DPS race goes, it's skewed so far in favor of locks it's not really funny. Warlock gear is itemized better in T5, and their set bonuses are to die for, while mages still waste massive amounts of itemization on spirit across their sets and their set bonuses are a sick joke.
My raid stacks the mage group. Ele-shaman, Spriest, 3 mages, every time. The locks (of which there are 3-4) get a resto shaman and possibly a resto druid in their group. In spite of this (and the fact that we use curse of shadows > Elements > Recklessness, meaning only a 4th lock gets a DPS curse) we have 3 locks that go well into the 1k DPS range. I normally finish around 3rd-5th on damage done, another lock is ALWAYS 1st, and the other 2 top 5 spots are filled by another lock, a hunter, and one of a couple rogues (Or that Ele Shaman, now that I think about it). We're all over 1k DPS, but some fights favor certain things.
Edited, Mar 18th 2008 3:08pm by Loki
My raid stacks the mage group. Ele-shaman, Spriest, 3 mages, every time. The locks (of which there are 3-4) get a resto shaman and possibly a resto druid in their group. In spite of this (and the fact that we use curse of shadows > Elements > Recklessness, meaning only a 4th lock gets a DPS curse) we have 3 locks that go well into the 1k DPS range. I normally finish around 3rd-5th on damage done, another lock is ALWAYS 1st, and the other 2 top 5 spots are filled by another lock, a hunter, and one of a couple rogues (Or that Ele Shaman, now that I think about it). We're all over 1k DPS, but some fights favor certain things.
Edited, Mar 18th 2008 3:08pm by Loki
Kavekk wrote:
That was fast.
No, but seriously, Trinket out of KS. 4sec stun vs 6 sec stun.
As for the Mage thing, remove CoC and AE as damage spells. CoC is used defensively as a snare (as it does sh*t damage/mana) and AE is rarely used at all, save for rank 1 spam to unstealth Rogues. We go OOM a lot. Icelance is great - apart from the fact it's awful damage unless the target is frozen, which requires the use of another instant.
So basically, we're left with one instant as 17/0/44 that does damage. Let's take sl/sl and see how many it has:
Siphon Life
CoA
Corruption
Frost spec is incredibly reliant on casting to do damage - casting interruptable spells with puhsback. As sl/sl even after you have put up your insatants you can just cast uninterruptable (in any fashion) Drain Life.
By the way, all other classes will seem hard until you get at least as good gear as them. The only one which remains hard is Rogue (for Warlocks).
No, but seriously, Trinket out of KS. 4sec stun vs 6 sec stun.
As for the Mage thing, remove CoC and AE as damage spells. CoC is used defensively as a snare (as it does sh*t damage/mana) and AE is rarely used at all, save for rank 1 spam to unstealth Rogues. We go OOM a lot. Icelance is great - apart from the fact it's awful damage unless the target is frozen, which requires the use of another instant.
So basically, we're left with one instant as 17/0/44 that does damage. Let's take sl/sl and see how many it has:
Siphon Life
CoA
Corruption
Frost spec is incredibly reliant on casting to do damage - casting interruptable spells with puhsback. As sl/sl even after you have put up your insatants you can just cast uninterruptable (in any fashion) Drain Life.
By the way, all other classes will seem hard until you get at least as good gear as them. The only one which remains hard is Rogue (for Warlocks).
Large quote, forgive me.
Anyhow. Any rogue worth his salt isn't going to KS a mage unless he or she sees you Blink. It is on a cool down isn't it? And even then I probably won't use KS on you, or Cheap Shot for that matter. Trinkets, blink. They get you out of my stuns. Instead I'll use things that hurt, eviscerate, envenom, rupture. Envenom is very nice, with the right spec and the right timing you can get a good 4k + crit.
Rogue vs. Mage and a Cheap Shot or Kidney Shot= Fail in open BGs like AV.
Garrote is much better, then I can beat on you for 3 or 4 seconds spamming Sinister Strike :D
Almost forgot, I love leveling my Mage! I don't have to cook, or purchase food.
Should have rolled one to begin with :)
Edited, Mar 18th 2008 10:35pm by Carmeliens
I think you all worry way too much about which class is 'better'. You can swing your DPS-*****' all you like, bottom line is, it's about having fun. If you have fun with a warlock, good for you.
If you have fun with a mage, have a cookie. Both have their roles to fulfill, both are equally important. Personally, I don't care about my DPS, I only care about not ******** up a pull. You can have the best geared warlock, but what good is he if he doesn't play up to his potential? Would you take him to a raid over a mage that doesn't have the best gear, but you know will be on the ball? Same question vice-versa.
Jesus, everyone needs to take a damn pill and just, God forbid, enjoy the game.
If you have fun with a mage, have a cookie. Both have their roles to fulfill, both are equally important. Personally, I don't care about my DPS, I only care about not ******** up a pull. You can have the best geared warlock, but what good is he if he doesn't play up to his potential? Would you take him to a raid over a mage that doesn't have the best gear, but you know will be on the ball? Same question vice-versa.
Jesus, everyone needs to take a damn pill and just, God forbid, enjoy the game.
"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible c*** : me."
Regarding CC:
The advantage of Sheep is it's a fire-and-forget spell; it's only 1.5 sec of lost DPS time and you can stack a re-Sheep on top of a polymorphed target to renew the duration.
Seduce isn't nearly as strong, as the mob can move and the Succubus herself can run into problems (stuns, aoe damage, direct damage from the mob she's seducing). But on the other hand it also doesn't eat up your own cast time to seduce something, and as a Warlock you're able to CC a ton of other stuff.
Basically in common practice Mages have better CC, but Warlocks have far greater CC potential (particularly in the rare situation where you have a Humanoid, a Demon/Elemental, and a fearable mob in a pull; you can flexibly choose to deal reduced DPS output in favor of CCing 3 mobs at once!)
The advantage of Sheep is it's a fire-and-forget spell; it's only 1.5 sec of lost DPS time and you can stack a re-Sheep on top of a polymorphed target to renew the duration.
Seduce isn't nearly as strong, as the mob can move and the Succubus herself can run into problems (stuns, aoe damage, direct damage from the mob she's seducing). But on the other hand it also doesn't eat up your own cast time to seduce something, and as a Warlock you're able to CC a ton of other stuff.
Basically in common practice Mages have better CC, but Warlocks have far greater CC potential (particularly in the rare situation where you have a Humanoid, a Demon/Elemental, and a fearable mob in a pull; you can flexibly choose to deal reduced DPS output in favor of CCing 3 mobs at once!)
11 posts
tuskerdu wrote:
Don't have a lock, becuz I leveled a hunter to 58 before getting bored and a buddy warned me playstyle is somewhat similar (pet tanks while you dps) and I should try something else. Very happy to have rolled a mage.
Tuskerdu your wrong locks lvl nothing like hunters. hunters are generally send pet autoshot and so forth, Whilst locks usually drain tank multiple mobs.
Quote:
Tuskerdu your wrong locks lvl nothing like hunters. hunters are generally send pet autoshot and so forth, Whilst locks usually drain tank multiple mobs.
I beg to differ. My lock was a hunter-lock until around lvl 45, when I started drain-tanking. At the low levels it is almost identical to hunter leveling. Send pet in, dot dot dot, life tap, drain life. Aggro is on the pet at all times. Compare the dots with autoshot and there ya go (though my hunter uses arcane shot, multi-shot, etc. in addition to autoshot).
Also, drain-tanking is usually on 1 mob. If you're deep affliction, you can dot 4-5 mobs up at once, then drain life on the highest life one to get them all to die around the same time, but it is not nearly like drain-tanking.
Meh... technicalities.
LOL
Mages have far more Instacasts/Fastcasts than Warlocks.
Now I love this topic because they are so similar and so far different.
The best way I can put this breifly and shortly is this:
Where a Mage has direct and immediate control over a battle in terms of Crowd Control, Damage and Survivability, a Warlock has MUCH less direct and immediate Control, but substantionally more indirect control and inimmediate damage.
If you don't care to read anymore that that will answer your question. Let me explain, however.
_______________________________________________________________
Having played high-end both I find that Fear not only works on a greater array of targets as a CC option, but can be coupled with the fact that Damage can be done over time to these targets as they run aimlessly. At the same time, a Sheeped monster causes little immediate threat and requires little "real" attention. A feared monster can change paths entirely within seconds and pull another set of monsters. Furthermore, the Warlock's Succubus' Seduce adds another CC Option, as well as Banish, however these add even more to the Warlocks 'worry list'. Properly specced/geared Warlocks can CC many more targets than Mages in a 'better' fashion than Mages, its just MUCH more difficult.
For PVP a Mage's skill is often noticable by their ability to move... litterally. Jumping, strafing, and timing spells to the millisecond are all important PVP tactics for a Mage. As a Warlock movement is usually a bad idea unless its in a mad attempt to DoT up multiple opponents. Warlocks require a bit more multimanagement, ability to keep timers in your head, the ability to call upon a myriad of different spells for different situations (is harder than it sounds) and to remember all your options (something I still have yet to master.) Where Mage would be a First Person Shooter, Warlock would be a Turn-Based RPG.
In Damage reguards, the only Mage type I have encountered that can produce the DPS when it counts (PVP and Boss Encounters) are Arcane Mages. Frost has some nasty abilities, and Fire can spit some mad damage in general, but I have yet to be topped by a Frost/Fire Mage in a Boss fight on my Warlock, and I cause MUCH more fuss in PVP. The ability to instant-DoT multiple targets, CC with a wide selection of options, cast a unique Targeted Point-Blank Area of Effect, all while holding a selection of different Pets to encompass multiple situations proves to be a one-up on a Mage's ability. Properly geared/set Arcane Mages can deal a *good* deal more damage than *any* specced Warlock, however they depend on multiple variables and a lot of external assistance, where Warlocks only need Heals thrown on for LT.
The Flip-side, however, is that most Warlock damage requires a certain killtime (be it either long or short depending on the spec). A "good" group going through a Regular Instance will show an Affliction warlock doing lower numbers than a Heroic even with great skill, you will also find lowered efficiency. A "good" group going through a Heroic Boss Fight will show Destruction locks running out of Mana and options as too long of fights eventually wear on Destruction's ability to burst and requirement to rest (unless healed.) Meanwhie any Spec of Mage not only has multiple Mana recovery options, they also have a abilities to retain Mana regeneration through casting, and perform excellently at any inextreme battle. This really makes Mage's a very strong 1v1 PVPer as well (Locks only being able to beat Mages due to Felpuppy's Spell-Lock and Devour Magic abilities.)
Fact is, Mage will perform better and have direct control durring any mid-length fights, while Warlocks excel at very Long (Affliction/Demo) or very short (Destruction) fights and require much more attention but more options when talking about CC options.
Neither are easy, neither are boring, and neither can be simplified to a button-smashing class. The worst thing I can say here is that neither of them play at 70 like they do at 1-60, so telling you to 'try' both out wont help. If you're REALLY interested you can try making one of each in the new 2.4 World Tourney thing so you can try out the high-end game in high-end gear and see what you like.
Edited, Mar 26th 2008 3:26am by tzsjynx
Mages have far more Instacasts/Fastcasts than Warlocks.
Now I love this topic because they are so similar and so far different.
The best way I can put this breifly and shortly is this:
Where a Mage has direct and immediate control over a battle in terms of Crowd Control, Damage and Survivability, a Warlock has MUCH less direct and immediate Control, but substantionally more indirect control and inimmediate damage.
If you don't care to read anymore that that will answer your question. Let me explain, however.
_______________________________________________________________
Having played high-end both I find that Fear not only works on a greater array of targets as a CC option, but can be coupled with the fact that Damage can be done over time to these targets as they run aimlessly. At the same time, a Sheeped monster causes little immediate threat and requires little "real" attention. A feared monster can change paths entirely within seconds and pull another set of monsters. Furthermore, the Warlock's Succubus' Seduce adds another CC Option, as well as Banish, however these add even more to the Warlocks 'worry list'. Properly specced/geared Warlocks can CC many more targets than Mages in a 'better' fashion than Mages, its just MUCH more difficult.
For PVP a Mage's skill is often noticable by their ability to move... litterally. Jumping, strafing, and timing spells to the millisecond are all important PVP tactics for a Mage. As a Warlock movement is usually a bad idea unless its in a mad attempt to DoT up multiple opponents. Warlocks require a bit more multimanagement, ability to keep timers in your head, the ability to call upon a myriad of different spells for different situations (is harder than it sounds) and to remember all your options (something I still have yet to master.) Where Mage would be a First Person Shooter, Warlock would be a Turn-Based RPG.
In Damage reguards, the only Mage type I have encountered that can produce the DPS when it counts (PVP and Boss Encounters) are Arcane Mages. Frost has some nasty abilities, and Fire can spit some mad damage in general, but I have yet to be topped by a Frost/Fire Mage in a Boss fight on my Warlock, and I cause MUCH more fuss in PVP. The ability to instant-DoT multiple targets, CC with a wide selection of options, cast a unique Targeted Point-Blank Area of Effect, all while holding a selection of different Pets to encompass multiple situations proves to be a one-up on a Mage's ability. Properly geared/set Arcane Mages can deal a *good* deal more damage than *any* specced Warlock, however they depend on multiple variables and a lot of external assistance, where Warlocks only need Heals thrown on for LT.
The Flip-side, however, is that most Warlock damage requires a certain killtime (be it either long or short depending on the spec). A "good" group going through a Regular Instance will show an Affliction warlock doing lower numbers than a Heroic even with great skill, you will also find lowered efficiency. A "good" group going through a Heroic Boss Fight will show Destruction locks running out of Mana and options as too long of fights eventually wear on Destruction's ability to burst and requirement to rest (unless healed.) Meanwhie any Spec of Mage not only has multiple Mana recovery options, they also have a abilities to retain Mana regeneration through casting, and perform excellently at any inextreme battle. This really makes Mage's a very strong 1v1 PVPer as well (Locks only being able to beat Mages due to Felpuppy's Spell-Lock and Devour Magic abilities.)
Fact is, Mage will perform better and have direct control durring any mid-length fights, while Warlocks excel at very Long (Affliction/Demo) or very short (Destruction) fights and require much more attention but more options when talking about CC options.
Neither are easy, neither are boring, and neither can be simplified to a button-smashing class. The worst thing I can say here is that neither of them play at 70 like they do at 1-60, so telling you to 'try' both out wont help. If you're REALLY interested you can try making one of each in the new 2.4 World Tourney thing so you can try out the high-end game in high-end gear and see what you like.
Edited, Mar 26th 2008 3:26am by tzsjynx
Quote:
Properly geared/set Arcane Mages can deal a *good* deal more damage than *any* specced Warlock, however they depend on multiple variables and a lot of external assistance, where Warlocks only need Heals thrown on for LT.
Speaking from experience with a SSC mage (deep arcane) vs SSC mage (deep fire), the deep fire build will do more damage than a deep arcane build on boss fights. The only thing that arcane mages would do is out-do the warlock (or other mages) on spike dps, but for average DPS over a boss fight, it will be lower than a fire mage with equal gear. And warlocks almost always outdps mages in my old horde guild. I'm fairly sure that's still the case, but I haven't raided on my mage now in 4 months.
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