i've been in outlands for 4 levels now, and whenever i'm questing i always go LFG for whatever. a few nights ago, i get a whisper:
whipser: what spec war?
me: prot
whisper: boo
so then this person spams general chat for the next 30 minutes with "LF DPS for ramps". i check out the group, they have a 65 pally tank. wtf? is the difference in dps really going to matter in ramps with a 65 tank? finally, no takers and i get another whisper: can you dps at all?
me: well, i do carry a weapon
i get an invite, join the group and the run is very easy. i keep up battle shout, hamstring and devastate (no threat problem with 65 pally). yes, i'm last on dps meter, but not terribly.
the next night, another whisper (different person): what spec war?
me: prot
whisper: k, nvmd
me: because i'm prot?
whisper: just looking for dps
i check out the group, another prot pally tank and i never hear back from them.
the next night, another whisper: what spec?
me: prot
whisper: hmm, me too (pally)
<long pause>
whisper: ok you tank, i think i can heal ramps
run goes fine. i die once by the first boss, but we get a tree druid to heal and the rest is easy.
so, i have two questions:
1) where did all the prot pallys come from and are they now the preferred tanking class?
2) why are people so picky about what classes to bring to the early outland instances? does it really matter if you down vazruden in 3 minutes or 3.5 minutes?
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prot being excluded?Follow
Scholar
27 posts
I dont know what server your playing on .. but imma prot warrior and the people on my server love me. there is a HUGE shortage of tanks on my server so i can get into ANY group i want.
Kronikthedemonik wrote:
I dont know what server your playing on .. but imma prot warrior and the people on my server love me. there is a HUGE shortage of tanks on my server so i can get into ANY group i want.
agree. Back when I was running instances and Heroics getting a party was pretty easy. Might just be having bad luck man. Actually I do take that back. I remember replying to a shout a few times and they'd ask what spec. I'd say Prot, and get passed on because they already had a tank. Prot =/= DPS in a instance
Now granted they should have said something in the LFM shout, but eh what can ya do. I know back in my FFXI days on some days there would be a huge lack of healers lfg, on other days there would be a huge lack of tanks, and on small occasions there would be days where you could not find DPSers.
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2) why are people so picky about what classes to bring to the early outland instances? does it really matter if you down vazruden in 3 minutes or 3.5 minutes?
The only reason I can think of is because we really don't have any CC abilities. They could be looking for a mage, rogue, or lock? Later in Heroics you'll most certianly be turned down for DPS spot as a Prot Warrior lol
Edited, Feb 2nd 2008 3:06am by GYFFORD
9 posts
I have to disagree with you on the pallys are better tanks. I easily pull agro off a prot pally with my prot warrior. I also have quite a bit more health than a prot pally, and with shield bash to cancel spells and rage building as pally's mana drops I can't see why someone would choose a pally over a warrior to tank. Maye the "fact" that "prot pallies are far superior to warriors for 5 man tanking" is because you've grouped with a lot of crap warriors. While everything about a pally is easier.
Whether or not pally tanks are preferred is not why pally tanks seem to be in these groups, it's because the pallies were there first. If I'm in a group with a shaman healer, and a holy priest is looking for group, I probably won't pick it up, since we've already got a shaman. Even though I HATE shamans, because the shaman was there first.
As far as "2) why are people so picky about what classes to bring to the early outland instances? does it really matter if you down vazruden in 3 minutes or 3.5 minutes?" goes...I've seen fights in VC where the healer went OOM due to lack of DPS, also CC is very important in outlands instances. However idk why they'd want a warrior if they wanted CC...but the DPS issue still stands. There may not be enrage timers in non-heroics, but there still is the issue of healer's mana.
As far as "2) why are people so picky about what classes to bring to the early outland instances? does it really matter if you down vazruden in 3 minutes or 3.5 minutes?" goes...I've seen fights in VC where the healer went OOM due to lack of DPS, also CC is very important in outlands instances. However idk why they'd want a warrior if they wanted CC...but the DPS issue still stands. There may not be enrage timers in non-heroics, but there still is the issue of healer's mana.
Pallies are able to start the fight with a full mana pool allowing them to grab aggro quickly, usually rage has to build up. But one of the primary reasons I have seen is due to the pally's ability on all the trash mobs with aoe, where pallies excel on multiple mobs and warriors on single mobs. Additionally, pallies have a second life in Lay on Hands, so if a boss is close to dying and the group wipes the pally is there and can finish it off and is able to rez as well. In addition, (not always recommended) but bubble and heal the healer of they pull aggro for some reason has saved many a party. So I think primarily due to what else they bring to the table and the cc AOE aspect of holding down four or even five trash mobs can allow the dpsers to just take the group out, without much worry of any of the mobs getting pulled off the pally.
I have a pally as well in addition to my warrior, and to say or imply that playing a pally is easy, well, its been the most difficult class to play for me. Not hard but quite extensive system of seals, targeting party members with use of our "taunt and bubble" can make for some interesting and involved times.
But one person may have said it, you've had a run of bad luck, or there is already a tank and they needed DPS, Ive found recently alot of groups start out with a healer and tank then look for DPS and/or CC to fill out the rest of the group. I think either class has its own merits for tanking and each are spectacular in their own way. Consider yourself lucky, you have three talent trees that are quite viable, not so much with the paladin class, although I here they are fixing the lawl ret tree in Lich king - called the death knight, lmao.
I have a pally as well in addition to my warrior, and to say or imply that playing a pally is easy, well, its been the most difficult class to play for me. Not hard but quite extensive system of seals, targeting party members with use of our "taunt and bubble" can make for some interesting and involved times.
But one person may have said it, you've had a run of bad luck, or there is already a tank and they needed DPS, Ive found recently alot of groups start out with a healer and tank then look for DPS and/or CC to fill out the rest of the group. I think either class has its own merits for tanking and each are spectacular in their own way. Consider yourself lucky, you have three talent trees that are quite viable, not so much with the paladin class, although I here they are fixing the lawl ret tree in Lich king - called the death knight, lmao.
Scholar
27 posts
I got the same issue, at my server, moonglade. There are tons of people that started tanks due to lack of tanks for heroics and now im almost everytime out of job. I love tanking and i hate when someone comes and say's no i tank. Yesterday we had such a pally in our midst. I said go ahead and he went. The healer healed. The pally died in like 6 seconds. And i went back in def stance started to do my TC, devastate and my demo shout. in sec's i had full agro of all and before tadaa the pull our pally made killed our pally in no time and i stayed alive. So far that he tanked. He gave back tanking to me again and we survived and ended the instance good. Today i was playing on my priesty (70) and i was helping a prot warrior and prot pally with quests. The pally wanted to tank the elite and all i did was SW:P and wand and after 10 sec of the the pally that was tanking, i pulled agro. I hadnt healed yet and even fading away didn't help. The pally was half at mana cause all the tricks he used and i pulled agro. First and last time he tanked a elite in the party. I agree, pally's suck at tanking! They are very very good with AOE and multiple mob pulls and soloing. But for tanking and keeping agro they suck!
Hope i pissed a lot of people off :> But for those who want to convince me im wrong, come to moonglade(rp) and wisp holthazar.
Hope i pissed a lot of people off :> But for those who want to convince me im wrong, come to moonglade(rp) and wisp holthazar.
If you pulled aggro off the pally tank like that, then it's not that paladins suck at tanking, it's that that pally sucks at tanking.
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If you pulled aggro off the pally tank like that, then it's not that paladins suck at tanking, it's that that pally sucks at tanking.
Indeed.
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The healer healed. The pally died in like 6 seconds.
Plus in heroics, if the pally doesnt understand that he/she has to have pretty much the same type of gear, ie defense and avoidance stats, basically all blues at a minimum for heroics, then it will be a tough time.
Additionally, it is not advisable to AOE in heroics, there should be CC. So I doubt that pally was geared, knew what they were doing and did not realize that heroics are just as or in some cases can be more difficult that a raid as you have ten or more in a raid as opposed to the five in heroics. Pallies should not use AOE in heroics, CC is essential, and they MUST be geared for it or they will NOT be effective AT all. A properly geared pally, with some CC, that would not have happened.
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I know back in my FFXI days on some days there would be a huge lack of healers lfg, on other days there would be a huge lack of tanks, and on small occasions there would be days where you could not find DPSers.
I was a WHM who always went /anon xD
Anyways, Pally tanks are nice to have. It's nice that people realise that warriors are not solely made for tanking. Pallies excel in multi mob tanking. You'll be seeing a lot of that in Shattered Halls *shudder* but when it comes to single mob/boss tanking, warriors have a variety of skills that allow us to survive even the hardest hits.
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i've been in outlands for 4 levels now, and whenever i'm questing i always go LFG for whatever.
As you progress further into the game, you'll see that it's nice for a pally or druid to take over your tanking job for awhile.
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1) where did all the prot pallys come from and are they now the preferred tanking class?
2) why are people so picky about what classes to bring to the early outland instances? does it really matter if you down vazruden in 3 minutes or 3.5 minutes?
2) why are people so picky about what classes to bring to the early outland instances? does it really matter if you down vazruden in 3 minutes or 3.5 minutes?
1) They've been around for awhile. Very viable if you know you're going to face more than 4 mobs in a single pull.
2) Picky is not the word. Outland instances are not like those on Azeroth. You will need CC and you will need to know the advantages and disadvantages of your class. I like tanking but I know my limit and instead of having "I'm a warrior and I'm the only proper tanking class in the game" mentality, I actually like to take a back seat once in awhile and let those feral druids and protection spec paladins take over.
This arguement is pretty similar to "Hey, I'm a good rogue but a fury warrior took my place" xD
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esterday we had such a pally in our midst. I said go ahead and he went. The healer healed. The pally died in like 6 seconds.
This is why it's helpful to have a tank that not only can tank, but knows how to and has some modicum of skill.
The problem is there's very little difference between a decent Protadin, a good Protadin and a great Protadin. Their gearing can get a little interesting, but playing one is almost snooze-worthy after trying to tank instances as a Prot Warrior. One-button AE aggro is a little rediculous, and that trend continues throughout most of what they do.
There is, by comparison, a much greater difference between a decent Prot Warrior and a good/great Prot Warrior... but gear selection isn't nearly as much of a headache as it can be with Protadins, especially while gearing up.
Of course, Badge gear very nearly negates all this so meh.
Well a group with intelligent CC members shouldn't have a problem working with a Protadin to allow him to use AE Tanking. The bonuses to Protadin's in 5-man BC instances is that they handle multi-target threat much better & quicker than a Warrior can. However they cannot take as much punishment as a Prot Warrior in the long run, and less mitigation & single target threat tools.
It's give and take, both have their pro's and con's. But in lower 5-man BC content, I would definitely prefer a Protadin over a Prot Warrior. With TC being usable in Def. Stance now, Warriors are a little better with AE Multi-target tanking. But they still can't come close to the benefit of a Protadin in the content range. However, once you get to big-baddies in 70+ & Heroic content in BC, having a Prot Warrior is a bonus, especially on boss fights. Their single target threat generation is fantastic, and they have tools to regain threat quickly in case of problems, as well as Intervene for saving a Healer on a big incoming crit heal.
It's give and take, both have their pro's and con's. But in lower 5-man BC content, I would definitely prefer a Protadin over a Prot Warrior. With TC being usable in Def. Stance now, Warriors are a little better with AE Multi-target tanking. But they still can't come close to the benefit of a Protadin in the content range. However, once you get to big-baddies in 70+ & Heroic content in BC, having a Prot Warrior is a bonus, especially on boss fights. Their single target threat generation is fantastic, and they have tools to regain threat quickly in case of problems, as well as Intervene for saving a Healer on a big incoming crit heal.
RPZip wrote:
One-button AE aggro is a little rediculous, and that trend continues throughout most of what they do.
Maybe Warrior's 51 point talent in WotLK will be called Shield Spin. It will be like Shield Slam but a 4 target AoE.
GYFFORD wrote:
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2) why are people so picky about what classes to bring to the early outland instances? does it really matter if you down vazruden in 3 minutes or 3.5 minutes?
The only reason I can think of is because we really don't have any CC abilities. They could be looking for a mage, rogue, or lock? Later in Heroics you'll most certianly be turned down for DPS spot as a Prot Warrior
That's the biggest problem with getting DPS invites as a warrior, especially if you're prot specced. You bring no CC or other useful things to the table and you're not specced for DPS either. Why would I invite a prot warrior for DPS when I could get someone who helps the party more instead? I don't know about you, but if I'm looking for DPS a prot warrior is pretty close to the bottom of the list.
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75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat
Items no one cares about: O
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75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat
Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
Like I always say, as far as heroics nobody want's a Rogue w/o Sap.(Which is what the fury war is, seriously, I noticed...lol) It's hard for me to get ANY invites except from friends when it comes to heroics.
But of course, its the warrior's way, as soon as I spec prot there are 50 million tanks available. I noticed on my server not much happens during the weekdays, people hardly ever even use the LFG tool. On the weekdends there's plenty of people on(yay the weekend warriors! lol), but then you're most likely to bump into many more noobs doing heroics with green gear from lv 60.
But of course, its the warrior's way, as soon as I spec prot there are 50 million tanks available. I noticed on my server not much happens during the weekdays, people hardly ever even use the LFG tool. On the weekdends there's plenty of people on(yay the weekend warriors! lol), but then you're most likely to bump into many more noobs doing heroics with green gear from lv 60.
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but if I'm looking for DPS a prot warrior is pretty close to the bottom of the list.
Yep, I'd prolly take a holy priest over us, at least they can MC and PW-Fort lol
cool, thanks for all the posts. i didn't mean to start a pally vs. warrior war; i think the following equations still apply:
well played pally tank > poorly played warrior tank
well played warrior tank > poorly played pally tank
having played both, i will say that they are both fun to tank with and completely different. pally has ret aura as well as consecration which actually affects everyone (vs. TC affecting only 4 targets - still don't get this one blizz), which make holding multiple mobs a bit easier. and of course salvation for anyone putting out too much threat. but they don't have a good alternative to shield bash which makes moving casters around quite a bit tougher for them.
so i'm not bashing protadins; it's just that i didn't run into many of them pre-outlands. is it a new fad, or a common time to respec? just wondering really.
well played pally tank > poorly played warrior tank
well played warrior tank > poorly played pally tank
having played both, i will say that they are both fun to tank with and completely different. pally has ret aura as well as consecration which actually affects everyone (vs. TC affecting only 4 targets - still don't get this one blizz), which make holding multiple mobs a bit easier. and of course salvation for anyone putting out too much threat. but they don't have a good alternative to shield bash which makes moving casters around quite a bit tougher for them.
so i'm not bashing protadins; it's just that i didn't run into many of them pre-outlands. is it a new fad, or a common time to respec? just wondering really.
many pali's choose to level as prot. it's not a new thing, as far as I can tell.
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so i'm not bashing protadins; it's just that i didn't run into many of them pre-outlands. is it a new fad, or a common time to respec? just wondering really.
It's not a new fad. It's just something that the paladin class is able to do other than being a Cleanse bot. Blizz made some adjustments to their protection tree and their able to tank pretty well now but by no means any should be discouraged from tanking. One thing about being a warrior, we're more flexible than what people give us credit for. Only role that we can't fill is a healer xD
mylandre wrote:
Only role that we can't fill is a healer xD
my warrior filled a roll with a healer the other day, a little bit of mayo and pepper she tasted very nice
Edited, Feb 5th 2008 4:43am by redbarronthesecond
Lady Karlina wrote:
That's the biggest problem with getting DPS invites as a warrior, especially if you're prot specced. You bring no CC or other useful things to the table and you're not specced for DPS either. Why would I invite a prot warrior for DPS when I could get someone who helps the party more instead? I don't know about you, but if I'm looking for DPS a prot warrior is pretty close to the bottom of the list.
People are too narrow-minded at times. I've run H Mech with two prot Warriors before and we got through it in super fast time. A second Warrior is a CC of sorts as he can tank mobs while the group takes down other targets. It may not work well in every heroic but sometimes you can do amazing things with the 'wrong' group combo if you just think creatively.
We even cleared up to close to the third boss in H Bot with three prot Warriors, a Shadow Priest and a Holy Priest and two of those tanks were undergeared going into their first heroic. We actually managed to take out the first boss there as well though it took forever and she had time to summon two sets of adds before we finally got her down. I'm not sure if we could have managed the second or third boss but were managing trash pulls pretty well and probably could have taken Laj down if we'd been able to stay later.
It does take a flexible group to take an extra prot Warrior as a third DPS but it can be done in some instances. I don't think it would work well in a PUG though. Some of our prot Warriors are talking about changing back to DPS spec but are worried that they won't be able to PUG stuff any more. They will still be more than welcome in guild runs and in Kara but our guild isn't big enough to be always running instances so a lot of people do rely on PUGs for gear.
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my warrior filled a roll with a healer the other day, a little bit of mayo and pepper she tasted very nice
O.o
Took me awhile to understand that one LMAO.
I agree with Morghast. I've only had one very successful Shattered Halls run and it was with 2 warriors. A better geared MT and I was OT. The MT would take on 2 and I would OT one and go after the ones that he couldn't keep. Not too bad considering that my gear wasn't that good at that time and I was Arms.
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