Just got Stormherald last night, and immediately slapped Executioner on it. I wish I had done more research, because after reading up some more this morning, and doing some of my own calculations, it would seem Savagery is better overall. This is with Blessing of Might added.
Normal (Unenchanted) = 552 DPS = 33120 DPM
Exec = 8610 DPM (active) + 24840 DPM = 33450 DPM
Savagery = 563 DPS = 33780 DPM
Very marginal, yes. But since it is proven that the more Armor Pen you have the better it gets, and Paladins don't get a lot Armor Pen on their gear (Looking at tiers), besides for the occasional melee DPS plate, it would see, Savagery will always be a better choice.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 9:24am by Dathur
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Savagery vs. Executioner (Some math)Follow
I want 8610 DPS and 24840 dps.... stormherald must be way more awesome than I thought.
Quote:
I want 8610 DPS and 24840 dps
based on patch notes for 2.4 these are the kind of numbers ret will see :O
Patch notes for 2.4, at least the ones released earlier were proven fake if I recall. If new ones have come up feel free to copy paste them here since I am not clicking on links.
I'd be interested in seeing those dps numbers spread over a PvE fight. As it stands 563 dps in a PvE fight is very very very low. In a PvP we all know damage is less important than stuns, CC and utility so who gives a rats ***.
As for Sav vs Exc well it depends. PvE or PvP and even then it depends. In PvE there are fights where bosses have no armor or enough not to matter so Executioner doesnt matter, then there are bosses where the armor is there and Executioner has been showing to pull a head. So its hit or miss and given that the numbers arent staggering enough to make you want to go with Exec a lot are still using Sav. But I think its finally starting to settle out. If you go over to elitist jerks there is an exceptional post on the matter that has more math than my grade 13 calculus text. Shouldn't be too hard to find.
I'd be interested in seeing those dps numbers spread over a PvE fight. As it stands 563 dps in a PvE fight is very very very low. In a PvP we all know damage is less important than stuns, CC and utility so who gives a rats ***.
As for Sav vs Exc well it depends. PvE or PvP and even then it depends. In PvE there are fights where bosses have no armor or enough not to matter so Executioner doesnt matter, then there are bosses where the armor is there and Executioner has been showing to pull a head. So its hit or miss and given that the numbers arent staggering enough to make you want to go with Exec a lot are still using Sav. But I think its finally starting to settle out. If you go over to elitist jerks there is an exceptional post on the matter that has more math than my grade 13 calculus text. Shouldn't be too hard to find.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Thyvene wrote:
Items
* Players will now be able to purchase level 70 Superior quality PvP items from reputation vendors.
* Items intended for Retribution Paladins have had their stats adjusted. Retribution Paladins should see an increase in dps as a result.
* Players can now only carry 80 Conjured Manna Biscuits at a time.
* Players will now be able to purchase level 70 Superior quality PvP items from reputation vendors.
* Items intended for Retribution Paladins have had their stats adjusted. Retribution Paladins should see an increase in dps as a result.
* Players can now only carry 80 Conjured Manna Biscuits at a time.
Here
bodhisattva wrote:
Patch notes for 2.4, at least the ones released earlier were proven fake if I recall.
There were some that were fake originally released, but there has been a few blue posts the last couple of days regarding the actual changes.
Dathur wrote:
Just got Stormherald last night, and immediately slapped Executioner on it. I wish I had done more research, because after reading up some more this morning, and doing some of my own calculations, it would seem Savagery is better overall. This is with Blessing of Might added.
Normal (Unenchanted) = 552 DPS = 33120 DPM
Exec = 8610 DPS (active) + 24840 DPS = 33450 DPM
Savagery = 563 DPS = 33780 DPM
Very marginal, yes. But since it is proven that the more Armor Pen you have the better it gets, and Paladins don't get a lot Armor Pen on their gear (Looking at tiers), besides for the occasional melee DPS plate, it would see, Savagery will always be a better choice.
Normal (Unenchanted) = 552 DPS = 33120 DPM
Exec = 8610 DPS (active) + 24840 DPS = 33450 DPM
Savagery = 563 DPS = 33780 DPM
Very marginal, yes. But since it is proven that the more Armor Pen you have the better it gets, and Paladins don't get a lot Armor Pen on their gear (Looking at tiers), besides for the occasional melee DPS plate, it would see, Savagery will always be a better choice.
Gah! You got stormherald, I go to look at your armory to check out your build (I keep trying to talk myself into leveling a Retadin) and you're specced holy! I wanted to see what a decent PvE Ret build would be (yes, yes, I know, lawl ret) since Tommyguns appears to be specced for PvP right now.
Ack. I haven't checked this post in a few days, and I didn't realized how screwed up the OP was.
I don't even remember quite the math, but it's the DPM (Damage per minute) that's important.
Oh, btw, I'm specced back to PvE Ret now.
I don't even remember quite the math, but it's the DPM (Damage per minute) that's important.
Oh, btw, I'm specced back to PvE Ret now.
Dathur wrote:
Ack. I haven't checked this post in a few days, and I didn't realized how screwed up the OP was.
I don't even remember quite the math, but it's the DPM (Damage per minute) that's important.
Oh, btw, I'm specced back to PvE Ret now.
I don't even remember quite the math, but it's the DPM (Damage per minute) that's important.
Oh, btw, I'm specced back to PvE Ret now.
What are you basing the executioner armor penn off of? it totally depends what armor you are ignoring. is the target fully sundered in your math?
and
Quote:
As it stands 563 dps in a PvE fight is very very very low.
qft. youch. 563 is very low in kara, and you are a ways past that.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 9:33am by KTurner
The numbers I'm using are not raid buffed, the target is not sundered, etc.
I used a site called maxdps.com where you punch in your numbers and it calculates your DPS. Raid buffed, I do around 700, not including Windfury. That includes the target being sundered.
Executioner gives me about 40 more DPS in a raid.
I used a site called maxdps.com where you punch in your numbers and it calculates your DPS. Raid buffed, I do around 700, not including Windfury. That includes the target being sundered.
Executioner gives me about 40 more DPS in a raid.
Hmm, well...
that site has a default armor of 3500 and from the "sources" ive read (hardly reliable but the best i can do) show raid boss armor to vary from about 6k to 9k. Vashj is 6k, VR is 9k.
sunders = -2600 so 3400 - 6400 respectively. On a softer target you are looking at about 5% more damage while executioner is active. on the harder target you are looking at 3.5% more damage while active.
messing with that calc, i was getting about a 10DPS increase with 70 AP. Now, im not seeing anyway to add executioner to the calculator. you can add armor penn, but that would be constant which executioner isnt. Im not sure this is mathematically accurate but if the proc rate of executioner is as low as 1ppm or 15/60 seconds or 25% of the time (very very conservative estimate here) could you say you have a constant (840*.25)=210 armor penn? With that value used in the calculator i see about a 6dps increase on 3500. However, i have noticed the actual time executioner is up seems much higher than 25%. maybe because of instants which carry the same proc chance (determined by the PPM).
However, since i know my previous "knowledge" that PPM was increased via haste was either wrong, or changed, im not sure instants improve proc rate at all anymore. But you get the idea.
Lets improve the executioner proc rate to 2ppm, which could be 30/60 or 50% (sounds more accurate to me) and you can use 840*.5=420 armor penn, total DPS goes up 16 on 3500 armor. and 11 on 6400 armor.
If anyone knows the actual proc rate of executioner that would help. i couldnt find anything. And if my math is wrong please correct me, i kinda went into ramble mode.
edit:
I think the 50% is much more accurate, and you can see executioner out DPSs savagery even on the harder 6400 armor target.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 10:52am by KTurner
that site has a default armor of 3500 and from the "sources" ive read (hardly reliable but the best i can do) show raid boss armor to vary from about 6k to 9k. Vashj is 6k, VR is 9k.
sunders = -2600 so 3400 - 6400 respectively. On a softer target you are looking at about 5% more damage while executioner is active. on the harder target you are looking at 3.5% more damage while active.
messing with that calc, i was getting about a 10DPS increase with 70 AP. Now, im not seeing anyway to add executioner to the calculator. you can add armor penn, but that would be constant which executioner isnt. Im not sure this is mathematically accurate but if the proc rate of executioner is as low as 1ppm or 15/60 seconds or 25% of the time (very very conservative estimate here) could you say you have a constant (840*.25)=210 armor penn? With that value used in the calculator i see about a 6dps increase on 3500. However, i have noticed the actual time executioner is up seems much higher than 25%. maybe because of instants which carry the same proc chance (determined by the PPM).
However, since i know my previous "knowledge" that PPM was increased via haste was either wrong, or changed, im not sure instants improve proc rate at all anymore. But you get the idea.
Lets improve the executioner proc rate to 2ppm, which could be 30/60 or 50% (sounds more accurate to me) and you can use 840*.5=420 armor penn, total DPS goes up 16 on 3500 armor. and 11 on 6400 armor.
If anyone knows the actual proc rate of executioner that would help. i couldnt find anything. And if my math is wrong please correct me, i kinda went into ramble mode.
edit:
I think the 50% is much more accurate, and you can see executioner out DPSs savagery even on the harder 6400 armor target.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 10:52am by KTurner
I still don't think I would take Savagery or Executioner over Mongoose for PvE DPS with as crit-reliant as Paladins are.
Gaudion wrote:
I still don't think I would take Savagery or Executioner over Mongoose for PvE DPS with as crit-reliant as Paladins are.
Using the same math basics in my previous post i would agree completely. Im seeing a 27DPS increase across the board. makes me think my math is completely messed up. where's rpzip when you need him.
Gaudion wrote:
I still don't think I would take Savagery or Executioner over Mongoose for PvE DPS with as crit-reliant as Paladins are.
i know you're way ahead of me dathur, but i'd have to agree with gaudion here. for PvE the extra crit should be much more dps depending on its proc rate. anyone know what the proc rate is for mongoose?
It's not all about the crit for Alliance Ret Paladins though, as it also has that Haste increase which is really incredible for Blood Elves.
Basically, 2/3 things that Mongoose brings is wasted on Alliance Retters: the AP from Agi, and the Haste.
But with Executioner, and the melee change to Crusader Strike, you gain a lot more from armor penetration, imo.
Leave Mongoose to Fury Warriors, Enh Shamans and Rogues.
And KTurner, I greatly appreciate your intuitive math on the subject of DPS increase. I just wish I could figure out how to work Ret Paladin spreadsheets.
EDIT: Maxdps.com shows that, afer a certain point, 8 crit does not equal 8 strength (or 17.6 AP with talents) in terms of DPS.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 2:32pm by Dathur
Basically, 2/3 things that Mongoose brings is wasted on Alliance Retters: the AP from Agi, and the Haste.
But with Executioner, and the melee change to Crusader Strike, you gain a lot more from armor penetration, imo.
Leave Mongoose to Fury Warriors, Enh Shamans and Rogues.
And KTurner, I greatly appreciate your intuitive math on the subject of DPS increase. I just wish I could figure out how to work Ret Paladin spreadsheets.
EDIT: Maxdps.com shows that, afer a certain point, 8 crit does not equal 8 strength (or 17.6 AP with talents) in terms of DPS.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 2:32pm by Dathur
Dathur wrote:
It's not all about the crit for Alliance Ret Paladins though, as it also has that Haste increase which is really incredible for Blood Elves.
Basically, 2/3 things that Mongoose brings is wasted on Alliance Retters: the AP from Agi, and the Haste.
But with Executioner, and the melee change to Crusader Strike, you gain a lot more from armor penetration, imo.
Leave Mongoose to Fury Warriors, Enh Shamans and Rogues.
And KTurner, I greatly appreciate your intuitive math on the subject of DPS increase. I just wish I could figure out how to work Ret Paladin spreadsheets.
EDIT: Maxdps.com shows that, afer a certain point, 8 crit does not equal 8 strength (or 17.6 AP with talents) in terms of DPS.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 2:32pm by Dathur
Basically, 2/3 things that Mongoose brings is wasted on Alliance Retters: the AP from Agi, and the Haste.
But with Executioner, and the melee change to Crusader Strike, you gain a lot more from armor penetration, imo.
Leave Mongoose to Fury Warriors, Enh Shamans and Rogues.
And KTurner, I greatly appreciate your intuitive math on the subject of DPS increase. I just wish I could figure out how to work Ret Paladin spreadsheets.
EDIT: Maxdps.com shows that, afer a certain point, 8 crit does not equal 8 strength (or 17.6 AP with talents) in terms of DPS.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 2:32pm by Dathur
ahh, see i assumed pallies got 1ap for 1agi too, so my previous number of 26dps is way off. still looking at an 18dps increase across the board, greater than executioner.
I'm curious as to where the 18DPS increase comes from, KTurner.
Ugh. I've always disliked math, but if it helps me improve, then so be it!
Ugh. I've always disliked math, but if it helps me improve, then so be it!
Dathur wrote:
I'm curious as to where the 18DPS increase comes from, KTurner.
Ugh. I've always disliked math, but if it helps me improve, then so be it!
Ugh. I've always disliked math, but if it helps me improve, then so be it!
well, im just using your maxdps calculator. figuring mongoose has the same proc as executioner (im using 2ppm) and that its up 30 seconds in a minute, or 50% of the time, you can take the values you gain (120 agi, or 4.8% crit and 31.4 haste rating) divide by 2 and assume you have that added to your stats 100% of the time. So plug in an extra 2.4% crit and 15.7 haste rating and see your new DPS. i used a 100 hit rating, 2500 AP, and 30% crit base. and a 130 DPS 3.8 wep.
again, i could be way off so dont go blow 600g on mongoose because of my math. its really really rough.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 12:59pm by KTurner
I think both Mongoose and Executioner are both on a 1 PPM, but I'm not sure (Never seen any actual numbers).
I'll post more of my findings.
I'll post more of my findings.
The things i've read say 1ppm as well, but you cant go completely off that as that is assuming only autoattacks. Since crusader strike and possibly other abilities can trigger the proc, and have the same proc chance (percentage chance to proc) as an autoattack, your true chance proc rate is greater than 1ppm.
Dunno about pallies completely. i can say that executioner/mongoose on my rogue is up a lot more often than 1ppm worth.
basically, with stormherald, 1ppm has a 6.3% chance to proc. Each autoattack has this chance, each ability that can proc it has that chance. You can do 10 CSs in a minute, and each CS has a 6.3% chance to proc it. Its all theory craft and we all know executioner can go off on 3 consecutive swings and just refresh itself, or you can go a minute without seeing a single proc.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 1:17pm by KTurner
Dunno about pallies completely. i can say that executioner/mongoose on my rogue is up a lot more often than 1ppm worth.
basically, with stormherald, 1ppm has a 6.3% chance to proc. Each autoattack has this chance, each ability that can proc it has that chance. You can do 10 CSs in a minute, and each CS has a 6.3% chance to proc it. Its all theory craft and we all know executioner can go off on 3 consecutive swings and just refresh itself, or you can go a minute without seeing a single proc.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 1:17pm by KTurner
Dathur wrote:
Basically, 2/3 things that Mongoose brings is wasted on Alliance Retters: the AP from Agi, and the Haste.
I wouldn't call the haste wasted on Alliance Pallies. As a melee class you can't possibly not benefit from swinging faster. Not as good for Alliance, sure, but not wasted.
Gaudion wrote:
Dathur wrote:
Basically, 2/3 things that Mongoose brings is wasted on Alliance Retters: the AP from Agi, and the Haste.
I wouldn't call the haste wasted on Alliance Pallies. As a melee class you can't possibly not benefit from swinging faster. Not as good for Alliance, sure, but not wasted.
I will ammend my post:
Seeing that a huge chunk of my damage comes from strictly white damage, I will have to agree with you, Gaudion. If only SoCommand scaled with Haste. =/
KTurner wrote:
Dunno about pallies completely. i can say that executioner/mongoose on my rogue is up a lot more often than 1ppm worth.
basically, with stormherald, 1ppm has a 6.3% chance to proc. Each autoattack has this chance, each ability that can proc it has that chance. You can do 10 CSs in a minute, and each CS has a 6.3% chance to proc it. Its all theory craft and we all know executioner can go off on 3 consecutive swings and just refresh itself, or you can go a minute without seeing a single proc.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 1:17pm by KTurner
basically, with stormherald, 1ppm has a 6.3% chance to proc. Each autoattack has this chance, each ability that can proc it has that chance. You can do 10 CSs in a minute, and each CS has a 6.3% chance to proc it. Its all theory craft and we all know executioner can go off on 3 consecutive swings and just refresh itself, or you can go a minute without seeing a single proc.
Edited, Feb 4th 2008 1:17pm by KTurner
For some reason, I see Executioner proc a lot more in BGs. And I hate that.
I do believe you are correct when you say that "Its all theory craft and we all know executioner can go off on 3 consecutive swings and just refresh itself, or you can go a minute without seeing a single proc."
Now I ask this, which may or may not have been explained, that PPM1 means that it will proc, on average, once per minute. Is this true?
Edited, Feb 5th 2008 8:14am by Dathur
This has been a great morning! I love math lol
Dathur wrote:
Now I ask this, which may or may not have been explained, that PPM1 means that it will proc, on average, once per minute. Is this true?
For autoattacks yes. From my understanding.
KTurner wrote:
Dathur wrote:
Now I ask this, which may or may not have been explained, that PPM1 means that it will proc, on average, once per minute. Is this true?
For autoattacks yes. From my understanding.
Great. So hopefully SoCommand and CS proc it, too. :)
Dathur wrote:
KTurner wrote:
Dathur wrote:
Now I ask this, which may or may not have been explained, that PPM1 means that it will proc, on average, once per minute. Is this true?
For autoattacks yes. From my understanding.
Great. So hopefully SoCommand and CS proc it, too. :)
Im pretty sure CS does. Cannot say for SoC. There is that ret pally hideout site or whatever. It was linked on the main forum a while ago, maybe somebody there will know for sure.
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