DPS's and Aggro-- I've never understood this...Follow

Hello, I'm a level 67 fire mage, and I got a newb question..

I picked the Fire spec pretty much randomly when I started my toon, not knowing at the time really what each spec's advantages were. I later learned that the advantage of a Fire mage is that, while not being as good at PvP or with PvE farming, it is very good in instances. The basis behind the Fire spec is high damage dealt.

However, whenever I use this at the full potential, I always draw aggro. The response to this is the obvious "Don't spam your spells, and wait for the tank to secure aggro." Well, I try to always wait for the tank to secure aggro (I'm almost always the last nuker in the party to begin attacking because of a paranoia about this), and I've of course learned not to spam Fireball or else my DPS will quickly pass the tank's and I will pull aggro. So, I either cast Fireball more slowly, or do more with Scorch.

And this is where I get confused: casting hard-hitting spells slowly does the same damage as casting weak spells quickly. So what is the point of having the hard-hitting spells at all? From what I read on the forums and on the wiki, Fireball is the be-all-end-all of instance spells. But why bother having all those Fire talents that increase damage done by Fireball if you have to cast more slowly as a result for fear of pulling aggro?

And furthermore, what is the point of ranged dps clothies anyway? If damage dealt roughly equals threat generated, then nobody should exceed the damage dealt by the main tank, (I know there are abilities that give tanks more threat and others less threat, but these don't seem to be *that* drastic), and therefore everybody would be better off rolling a plate wearing class and hitting at the enemy next to the main tank. 500 damage done by a warrior is no different than 500 damage done by a mage or warlock, except the former has better armor to protect themselves. Warriors and paladins can't do as much damage as mages or warlocks, but since mages and warlocks must rein their DPS back in anyway, what difference does it make?

This has always seemed to be a paradox to me. Everyone says that the dps must "do damage" while the tank holds aggro, which is completely misleading if the dps has to make sure not to exceed the tank's damage dealt. I'm sure there's an answer somewhere, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

I always stack 5 Scorches before I begin using Fireball, and every single time I have ever spammed Fireball on a boss after casting 5 Scorches (itself after waiting for the tank to gather threat) I have pulled aggro. Every single time. And I don't even have points into Empowered Fireball. On several occasions, casting Scorch 5 times at a leisurely rate (ie not spamming it) and then casting Fireball at a leisurely rate has also pulled aggro.

This is a good point, ppl always try to find out "why I suck as a mage" etc yet sometimes its the Tank that sucks. I've seen this myself in PUGs where the Tank cant gain enough agro in time so I'm left on the side lines waiting to start!

Get a threat meter, I don't know why any person would be leveling, especially in instances without one.

Watch where the tank is and how fast he is generating threat, once he has a few thousand (at lower levels) or 10k (at around 70) start casting, if you can surpass them easily then there is a problem. If you are slowly catching up stop casting for bit and wand if you want before you get invisibility.

Edited, Feb 1st 2008 8:57am by Anobix

Even soloing you should get and use a threat meter. It helps a lot for you to learn to judge what threat (and the ramp rates) you are putting out even if you are the only target. Any class with a pet also can optimize their DPS and tactics with a threat meter. It is fun to learn to "ride the line" close to the 130% limit. With that you can control when you choose to pause or even pull aggro (ping-pong aggro => moving aggro back and forth to cause the mob to run between 2 people rather than hitting them).

threat increasing and reducing talents and spells have a massive effect. let me make a small example to show how huge this is.

a tank hits for 1000 with shield slam. shield slam gives 307 base threat plus threat from damage.
total: 1307 threat.
the warrior is in def stance: +30% threat
1699 threat.
the warrior has defiance fully talented: +15% threat
1954 threat

now the mage:
fireball for 1000 damage
burning soul 2/2: -10% threat
900 threat
blessing of salvation: -30% threat
630 threat

so you see, they both did the same amount of damage, but the warrior tank generated more than 3 times the threat of the mage!

considering that the warrior has some threat generating abilities that do zero or minimal damage, you will end up doing hugely more damage without ever drawing aggro.

range will not help with threat generation, it only means that the threat threshold where the mob switches is 30% above the tank's.

also, mages and rogues can reset their threat to zero by using invisibility/vanish. some classes have periodic (feint) or temporary (fade) threat reduction skills.

Glad we could help.

1- Sometimes I need to use it more than just on boss fights. Running with an uber pally tank, as soon as he consecrates I am able to go all out. I rarely ever get close to his aggro, but If I ever get to 85% to 90% on the Omen meter, I hit invis. usually, waiting till the timer is down to 1 or 2 seconds you can start casting again. On major boss fights, Usually you should only have to wait 5-15 seconds for the tank to establish his aggro. then again, the general rule I use is when i get second on the threat meter I hit invisibility, sometimes I hit too many crits in a row and have to sit there for 5-10 seconds so that another dps can overtake my threat.
2- Generally you don't have to wait for the fade to hit, It will break you from combat ect. ect. I usually just start a cast again when the timer is down to 1 to 2 seconds, sometimes it doesn't catch and you do break combat, which is slightly annoying for me cause i have to right click the buff off.
I hope some of this helps :)

Fantastic post here from the wowhead Druid forum.

There is a terrific discussion about how threat and DPS can be gauged to show best use of DPS. Essentially, the DPSs job is to do as much damage as possible without gaining aggro. If you are able to come within 1 threat of your tank you are providing the best possible DPS (regardless if someone else in the party is beating you in overall DPS). The post also talks about the different threat reducing / increasing abilities and how best to stay within your own class imposed limits.


Really good stuff.

We ran ZA last night and had salve and tranquility of air. I never got past 60% of the tanks threat. It was amazing.