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Scholar
48 posts
Is there any way I can rationalize using Footman's Longsword in either hand as a Combat Swords rogue?
Level? Exact spec?
Details my friend, details!
At a first sight I would say yes, but not for a 70, oh no.
Details my friend, details!
At a first sight I would say yes, but not for a 70, oh no.
Scholar
48 posts
Sorry about that. I'm almost to 61, and I'm about halfway to Honored with Honor Hold (haven't done any instances in the citadel yet, either).
My armory.
My armory.
iamthemiku wrote:
Is there any way I can rationalize using Footman's Longsword in either hand as a Combat Swords rogue?
The stats on that sword are pretty good, but it's too fast for a mainhand and to slow for an offhand...
But if you don't have anything better, use it...
42 posts
do ramparts and get the blue sword off the first boss much better.
Prikker wrote:
iamthemiku wrote:
Is there any way I can rationalize using Footman's Longsword in either hand as a Combat Swords rogue?
The stats on that sword are pretty good, but it's too fast for a mainhand and to slow for an offhand...
But if you don't have anything better, use it...
Your an moran.
iamthemiku wrote:
Sorry about that. I'm almost to 61, and I'm about halfway to Honored with Honor Hold (haven't done any instances in the citadel yet, either).
My armory.
My armory.
Oh btw keep the foe reaver for now. Not because of the weapon speed (dumbass comment) but because of the dmg per hit. You want this as high as possible and the footman's is lower.
As combat swords it'll be a while before you get any upgrades. Most quests offer daggers or the swords are more warrior types.
If you go with aldor you can get a fairly good main-hand sword at exalted that should last you a while. (It's a little bit butt-ugly but it works). Or go for the S1 stuff.
Let's see:
Foe Reaver: average weapon damage 116, white dps 44.6
Footman's: average weapon damage 111, white dps 52.9
So you are advising to use a weapon that has 5 more damage per special attack (which is less than 2dps worth) but is over 8dps worse for autoattack?
How the heck did you arrive at that conclusion?
Another thing is how good would Footman's work in offhand. I am trying to understand how much DPS is 0.1 speed difference in offhand worth. Anybody has any idea? For deadly poison, sword spec and possibly combat potency...
Foe Reaver: average weapon damage 116, white dps 44.6
Footman's: average weapon damage 111, white dps 52.9
So you are advising to use a weapon that has 5 more damage per special attack (which is less than 2dps worth) but is over 8dps worse for autoattack?
How the heck did you arrive at that conclusion?
Another thing is how good would Footman's work in offhand. I am trying to understand how much DPS is 0.1 speed difference in offhand worth. Anybody has any idea? For deadly poison, sword spec and possibly combat potency...
Wytryszek wrote:
I am trying to understand how much DPS is 0.1 speed difference in offhand worth. Anybody has any idea? For deadly poison, sword spec and possibly combat potency...
Despite being called a moron in this thread, I'll try to answer.
According to elitistjerks:
On offhand theory: for rogues with Combat Potency, a fast offhand is extremely important to increase the frequency of Combat Potency procs. For these builds, you can compare offhands by equating each 0.1 increment of speed to roughly 10 extra weapon DPS in favor of the faster weapon.
To the OP:
I actually use a pair of these on my level 64 rogue. One of the posters above me mentioned that there are few good sword drops between 60 and 65 or so. This is absolutely true.
I wasn't lucky enough to ever get the Ramps sword to drop (I hope you are) and decided against keeping Foe Reaver. And I have yet to see another sword drop that was worth a damn.
If you can't get anything better to drop, don't feel bad about using a pair of these.
I actually use a pair of these on my level 64 rogue. One of the posters above me mentioned that there are few good sword drops between 60 and 65 or so. This is absolutely true.
I wasn't lucky enough to ever get the Ramps sword to drop (I hope you are) and decided against keeping Foe Reaver. And I have yet to see another sword drop that was worth a damn.
If you can't get anything better to drop, don't feel bad about using a pair of these.
if you are set on staying sowrds then yes get 2 of these, but if you dotn mind goign daggers, then buy ne, and keep the foe reaver till you go to UB/SP there are 2 VERY nice dagger in there.
and due to the lack of decent rogueish swords for leveling in outland, its easier to go daggers then get some nice swords when u hit 70.
and due to the lack of decent rogueish swords for leveling in outland, its easier to go daggers then get some nice swords when u hit 70.
1 post
well im a lvl 63 hemo rogue and my armory is in my sig, but im using a footmans as my offhand and I think its very effective, even after switching to hemo last lvl and losing duel wield specialization, but yea also go to ramparts and look for that shadowrend, its not going ot take too long, i got mine on the third run :)
MH sword from first boss in Ramps, OH sword from first boss in Mana-Tombs.
Prikker wrote:
Wytryszek wrote:
I am trying to understand how much DPS is 0.1 speed difference in offhand worth. Anybody has any idea? For deadly poison, sword spec and possibly combat potency...
Despite being called a moron in this thread, I'll try to answer.
According to elitistjerks:
On offhand theory: for rogues with Combat Potency, a fast offhand is extremely important to increase the frequency of Combat Potency procs. For these builds, you can compare offhands by equating each 0.1 increment of speed to roughly 10 extra weapon DPS in favor of the faster weapon.
The moran part was for when you said this;
Prikker wrote:
The stats on that sword are pretty good, but it's too fast for a mainhand and to slow for an offhand...
Edited, Feb 7th 2008 11:15am by MentalFrog
Its spelt Moron.......>_>
And Weapons can be too fast for MH, because faster generally means lower dmg range, you want high damage range in the MH the speed is not really important, unless your Hemo.
AkandotheWhite wrote:
Its spelt Moron.......>_>
Can you seriously not detect the sarcasm in: Your an moran?
Because if you can't then you really are an moran.
But he is neither. Weapons have basically 2 parametere - speed and damage per hit range. You can not make a choice based only on one of them - or you will make a mistake like MentalFrog did.
On the other hand, in case 2 weapons have the same DPS, it is clear that the slower one is better. Weapon DPS is what decides about the tier of the weapon - you can see that all blue one-handed weapons for lvl70 have 71.x dps. So if you are comparing which one is better, you more or less look at the speed only. Or at least I do.
Concerning the 0.1 speed differnce giving 10dps more - I can only say "wow". No wonder the DPS spreadsheet recommends Searing Sunblade so strongly, even for sword spec.
On the other hand, in case 2 weapons have the same DPS, it is clear that the slower one is better. Weapon DPS is what decides about the tier of the weapon - you can see that all blue one-handed weapons for lvl70 have 71.x dps. So if you are comparing which one is better, you more or less look at the speed only. Or at least I do.
Concerning the 0.1 speed differnce giving 10dps more - I can only say "wow". No wonder the DPS spreadsheet recommends Searing Sunblade so strongly, even for sword spec.
The 0.1 speed to 10 dps ratio is misunderstood.
It's 0.1 speed compared to +/- 10 damage in the weapons range...
For Example....
Weapon A has 100-110 damage range. And a Speed of 1.4
Weapon B has 100-100 damage range. And has a speed of 1.3
Now weapon B will produce more DoT. Note i've chosen the words DoT over Dps, as not to mislead people....
People tend to read DPS as Damage, when DPS is another speed.... Like KM/h or Miles/hour
Damage per second, is the damage times how often you hit, to give you the speed of damage output. Not Raw Damage. Many people know this, but don't really think about it when they're saying "BUT THIS HAS 2 MORE DPS SO IT'S BETTER!!!"
Edited, Feb 8th 2008 6:54am by AkandotheWhite
AkandotheWhite wrote:
The 0.1 speed to 10 dps ratio is misunderstood.
It's 0.1 speed compared to +/- 10 damage in the weapons range...
For Example....
Weapon A has 100-110 damage range. And a Speed of 1.4
Weapon B has 100-100 damage range. And has a speed of 1.3
Now weapon B will produce more DoT. Note i've chosen the words DoT over Dps, as not to mislead people....
People tend to read DPS as Damage, when DPS is another speed.... Like KM/h or Miles/hour
Damage per second, is the damage times how often you hit, to give you the speed of damage output. Not Raw Damage. Many people know this, but don't really think about it when they're saying "BUT THIS HAS 2 MORE DPS SO IT'S BETTER!!!"
I think you misunderstand what elitistjerks is saying. Or, you have another opinion.
Now let me make clear, I've never done any calculations on this subject. So I don't know if any of the assumptions is right. But what elitistjerks is saying:
If you compare two offhand weapons, you should add 10 DPS (not damage. DPS) to the fast weapon for every 0.1 speed it's faster than the slow weapon. Or, in their own words:
For example, Latro's Shifting Sword is effectively 91.8 DPS when compared against Fireguard.
Ofcourse, you also have to consider the stats (hit/agi/whatever) on a weapon before making a final judgement.
No, i read that and trust me, he's using what i said in my previous post to come up with another speculation that is correct in theory, but not in practice....
He's saying that a ~75dps dagger.. is actually 91 dps.....
So he's taken what i said, and written it completly wrong as misleading people....
Hense why, I didnt quote or link to Elitistjerks.
EDIT: Just like to point out why he is wrong...
I did mention it above, but i guess it's unclear?
DPS is a speed!
You cant change the "speed" of a weapon, but you can change the damage.. Hense why speed a faster weapon to DAMAGE RANGE ratio gives better results....
DPS has almost nothing to do with it, its just the answer to the equation people are getting confused about.
Edited, Feb 8th 2008 8:31am by AkandotheWhite
Edited, Feb 8th 2008 8:33am by AkandotheWhite
He's saying that a ~75dps dagger.. is actually 91 dps.....
So he's taken what i said, and written it completly wrong as misleading people....
Hense why, I didnt quote or link to Elitistjerks.
EDIT: Just like to point out why he is wrong...
I did mention it above, but i guess it's unclear?
DPS is a speed!
You cant change the "speed" of a weapon, but you can change the damage.. Hense why speed a faster weapon to DAMAGE RANGE ratio gives better results....
DPS has almost nothing to do with it, its just the answer to the equation people are getting confused about.
Edited, Feb 8th 2008 8:31am by AkandotheWhite
Edited, Feb 8th 2008 8:33am by AkandotheWhite
Man, you really should stop making a fool of yourself. And spend some more time pondering the relations between weapon speed, damage range and DPS.
Anyhow, coming back to the 0.1 speed and 10dps. I understand from the elitejerks post that the 10dps is attributed to the weapon, so to make weapon comparison easier. But the actuall DPS gain will be 7.5dps due to the offhand damage reduction.
Also, the 10dps is assuming combat potency. I wonder how big role it plays (because I am at the moment still using hemo).
I guess I could check myself by creating some artificial weapons in the DPS spreadsheet. Let's see if I ever get to do it.
Anyhow, coming back to the 0.1 speed and 10dps. I understand from the elitejerks post that the 10dps is attributed to the weapon, so to make weapon comparison easier. But the actuall DPS gain will be 7.5dps due to the offhand damage reduction.
Also, the 10dps is assuming combat potency. I wonder how big role it plays (because I am at the moment still using hemo).
I guess I could check myself by creating some artificial weapons in the DPS spreadsheet. Let's see if I ever get to do it.
Wytryszek wrote:
Anyhow, coming back to the 0.1 speed and 10dps. I understand from the elitejerks post that the 10dps is attributed to the weapon, so to make weapon comparison easier. But the actuall DPS gain will be 7.5dps due to the offhand damage reduction.
Exactly. It's only (and only) a rule of thumb to compare two weapons. The real increase in DPS is totally different ofcourse. Because the "real" DPS depends on AP, crit, etc, and also you use the energy from Combat Potency (gained by your offhand) to do damage with your mainhand.
Again: the "10 dps increase for 0.1 speed increase" is only a way to compare two offhand weapons.
Wytryszek wrote:
Also, the 10dps is assuming combat potency. I wonder how big role it plays (because I am at the moment still using hemo).
Referring to the same article:
For non-Combat Potency rogues, offhand weapon speed is less important, but can still impact DPS via poison procs and sword spec procs. For any rogue with sword spec, each 0.1 increment of speed can be equated to roughly 5 extra weapon DPS in favor of the faster weapon. For rogues without sword spec, you can convert each 0.1 increment to 2 extra weapon DPS for the faster weapon.
Well, your AP should not matter in the comparison of the actuall DPS, becase it is a linear addition. But hit and crit and god knows what else will indeed modify the "extra DPS". So I stand corrected, I was thinking too simplistic.
And I am also blind, I missed the other paragraph during the first reading.
Anyhow, fantastic reading. I am a bit ashamed I did not know about this page before. Everything in one place - I can just send all noobs from our guild to read it, instead of explaining the same stuff to each of them.
And I am also blind, I missed the other paragraph during the first reading.
Anyhow, fantastic reading. I am a bit ashamed I did not know about this page before. Everything in one place - I can just send all noobs from our guild to read it, instead of explaining the same stuff to each of them.
You've sidetracked to make me look stupid :(
Before we were talking about White dps, not energy benefits into damage gain ratio!
What i'm saying is that people are misunderstanding that elitistjerks said because it was written wrongly...
And White Damage isnt connected in the way that they're talking about!
Quote:
Let's see:
Foe Reaver: average weapon damage 116, white dps 44.6
Footman's: average weapon damage 111, white dps 52.9
So you are advising to use a weapon that has 5 more damage per special attack (which is less than 2dps worth) but is over 8dps worse for autoattack?
How the heck did you arrive at that conclusion?
Foe Reaver: average weapon damage 116, white dps 44.6
Footman's: average weapon damage 111, white dps 52.9
So you are advising to use a weapon that has 5 more damage per special attack (which is less than 2dps worth) but is over 8dps worse for autoattack?
How the heck did you arrive at that conclusion?
This is what i was replying to!
Quote:
I am trying to understand how much DPS is 0.1 speed difference in offhand worth.
So i answer and help out........... so you say.....
Quote:
Man, you really should stop making a fool of yourself. And spend some more time pondering the relations between weapon speed, damage range and DPS.
Thanks!
The only time i'm wrong is when you add energy/damage ratio into it... Talking about pure raw damage, as i mentioned in my previous post.... then it is by no means 10dps to 0.1 speed, it is much more commonly noted as damage range/speed not affecting the dps.
We can all agree its hard to explain exactly what we mean, and people will always take things differently than how you write them.
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