I dont have one. A damage meter that is. But of course in a raid group of 10 people someone has one. He shows it at the end of Kara. Its the per whole list, trash and all, the entire 4, 5 hours.
So basically I´m wondering if I just suck so much or if I am somehow right in thinking that fire mages are at a disadvantage on such a listing, because trash mobs die fast, you dont have time to put the 5 scorches which give 15%+ fire damage, and then also do some fireballs. You also need to give the tank a few seconds, while the rogue or the arcane mage have started from the beginning to beat the mob up, until I get 2 fireballs in the the mob is at 70%, 50%, 10%, dead.
I need to get a damage meter to see myself only straight up dps boss fights listings (such as Attumen, Maiden, Aran..). Gah >_>
(937 fire unbuffed, 150hit, 25%crit with MA, 2/48/11, on bosses 5xscorch>fbxn..refreshing scorch when needed, trinkets)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Fire Mages on trash damage meters
Fire Mages on trash damage metersFollow
trash is trash, as long as it dies before anyone else does that is all that matters. We have long cast times which generally leads to only 3 casts getting off (if that many). I believe I ready somewhere if the trash will take more than 15 second put up a couple of scorches, otherwise just spam fireball.
I have not taken my mage to Kara yet but with Heroics and regular instances I just fireball the trash and save the scorch stacking for boss fights.
There are multiple things you have to know to maximize DPS on trash. True, the trash doesn't matter, but it's fun to know. These are my secrets.
1)Know when a spell won't get off. Fireball that doesn't land before the mob dies does no damage. Start on the next mob or change spells(scorch/fireblast) depending on the situation. Use your best judgment.
2)Start early when applicable. But start with a pyro. By the time it goes off, your tank should have enough threat.
3)Getting a little high on threat and not enough time to invis? Arcane missiles. 2/2 Arcane subtlety. Don't leave home without it.
4)Other fire mages in the raid? If you all open with an Imp Scorch, it'll up every fire mage's DPS more than likely. Work together.
5)When all else fails, have a paladin BoP that pesky rogue early in a pull. Can't build combo points when you can't use melee attacks.
Again, use your best judgement. Adapt the strategies to fit your tank/raid.
1)Know when a spell won't get off. Fireball that doesn't land before the mob dies does no damage. Start on the next mob or change spells(scorch/fireblast) depending on the situation. Use your best judgment.
2)Start early when applicable. But start with a pyro. By the time it goes off, your tank should have enough threat.
3)Getting a little high on threat and not enough time to invis? Arcane missiles. 2/2 Arcane subtlety. Don't leave home without it.
4)Other fire mages in the raid? If you all open with an Imp Scorch, it'll up every fire mage's DPS more than likely. Work together.
5)When all else fails, have a paladin BoP that pesky rogue early in a pull. Can't build combo points when you can't use melee attacks.
Again, use your best judgement. Adapt the strategies to fit your tank/raid.
Something that might help you in optimizing your spell rotation and understanding where your damage comes from is wowwebstats.com. All you have to do is run a combatlog by typing, duh, /combatlog. Once you're done with the raid go to that site, create a profile and use the client to generate a report of the fight. You can maintain reports for your guild and such, and the client allows multiple combat logs for merged data in large raids.
To give you a sample of the reporting features, check out our last Gruul raid:
http://wowwebstats.com/k41sdojefi2ke
This tool is HUGE for class champions in a guild to get a sense of what your class-mates are doing right and wrong, and to coach appropriately. Personally I got a huge boost in my SP DPS by looking at what others were doing in spell rotation. And it gives me some talking points when working with the mages in my guild on spec/gear/spell rotation.
Damage meters are epeen, THIS is a learning tool.
Edited, Jan 31st 2008 9:33am by TheEngine
To give you a sample of the reporting features, check out our last Gruul raid:
http://wowwebstats.com/k41sdojefi2ke
This tool is HUGE for class champions in a guild to get a sense of what your class-mates are doing right and wrong, and to coach appropriately. Personally I got a huge boost in my SP DPS by looking at what others were doing in spell rotation. And it gives me some talking points when working with the mages in my guild on spec/gear/spell rotation.
Damage meters are epeen, THIS is a learning tool.
Edited, Jan 31st 2008 9:33am by TheEngine
TheEngine wrote:
Damage meters are epeen, THIS is a learning tool.
Indeed. I love wws reports.
For trash, I no longer even use scorch...I fireball until dead...when I made that change, I noticed that my rankings in the damage meters went to the top everytime...
Dont die...a dead mage damages nothing, and it is hard to make up long term damage if those pesky rogues and warlocks are still fighting while you are watching with a release button on your screen.
I use Poldaran's technique of changing targets at the last second because it sucks to see your fireball hit a dead target for no damage.
If I'm really just trying to up the epeen level, I'll throw in an AoE at the end for multiple target damage (assuming no cc, of course). Chances are if they aren't cc'd then a tank has gotten sufficient threat not to pull aggro.
Finally, if it's the last mob, and I know my fireball cast time is too long, I'll toss a scorch and fireblast to finish it off.
In the end, trash doesn't matter, but these little changes will add up and you will stay near the top of the damage meters...
Dont die...a dead mage damages nothing, and it is hard to make up long term damage if those pesky rogues and warlocks are still fighting while you are watching with a release button on your screen.
I use Poldaran's technique of changing targets at the last second because it sucks to see your fireball hit a dead target for no damage.
If I'm really just trying to up the epeen level, I'll throw in an AoE at the end for multiple target damage (assuming no cc, of course). Chances are if they aren't cc'd then a tank has gotten sufficient threat not to pull aggro.
Finally, if it's the last mob, and I know my fireball cast time is too long, I'll toss a scorch and fireblast to finish it off.
In the end, trash doesn't matter, but these little changes will add up and you will stay near the top of the damage meters...
Anobix wrote:
trash is trash, as long as it dies before anyone else does that is all that matters. We have long cast times which generally leads to only 3 casts getting off (if that many). I believe I ready somewhere if the trash will take more than 15 second put up a couple of scorches, otherwise just spam fireball.
Couldn't agree more.
As to the OP, this may take us slightly OT but I have to know anyway - what difference does it make if the mage is at the top of the damage meter or not. Provided the group is progressing nicely through the instance and everyone is working as an effective team, does it really matter where you wind up at the end of the day? Or are you simply looking to the damage meter to make you a more effective team player?
Quote:
As to the OP, this may take us slightly OT but I have to know anyway - what difference does it make if the mage is at the top of the damage meter or not. Provided the group is progressing nicely through the instance and everyone is working as an effective team, does it really matter where you wind up at the end of the day? Or are you simply looking to the damage meter to make you a more effective team player?
Part of it is bravado and epeen....I would say most of us here realize that the important thing is to play your role, do your job the best you can, and down the trash and bosses as a team....and the damage meter is an inconsistent tool.
However, I know that many people, including some raid leaders, do put stock in what the damage meters say. Perception of a player's ability to dps can affect whether you get a raid spot or not.
I always do my best to maximize my dps, because it does help the raid get through trash quicker, and it helps me be one of the first mages selected to go on raids when dps is needed.
danoatnova wrote:
As to the OP, this may take us slightly OT but I have to know anyway - what difference does it make if the mage is at the top of the damage meter or not. Provided the group is progressing nicely through the instance and everyone is working as an effective team, does it really matter where you wind up at the end of the day? Or are you simply looking to the damage meter to make you a more effective team player?
I dont want to be at the top, I want to see myself where I feel my right spot is. I was 5th last night, I had before me an ele shaman and spriest with considerably less spell damage than me and less spell hit, first was an arcane mage with again less damage and spell hit.
And as I am an officer in my guild I have seen the "poor dps" discussions and I hate the thought of my poor dps being discussed when I am not online, as I really feel that during boss fights I´m not at all doing such poor dps as that damage meter showed last night. (enough with the "poor" word already! >.<)
We have indeed progressed nicely.
Edited, Jan 31st 2008 12:21pm by Amaiya
WWStats looks indeed really nice, thank you. I will definitely give it a try, along with perhaps a Recount(Preservation).
Amaiya wrote:
first was an arcane mage with again less damage and spell hit.
Doesn't surprise me one bit. Arcane is setup to break through resists/misses/ect, perform consistently, hit relatively hard, minimize threat, and burn the crap outa your mana.
You will most likely see your place jump drastically by just using a AM/ABlast rotation - even with a heavy fire spec. Furthermore, using combination of Fireballs and Fireblast, a Blast Wave/DBreath here and there, and your Combustion talent you will again see your place jump.
Modifiers and DoTs do not work well on Trash. Ask any Affliction Warlock -- better yet watch him. If ANYTHING they may be using Corruption or Siphon Life (for purposes other than DPS) but for the most part they are reaching into Destruction for the SBolts, SBurn, Immolate and Incinerate.
Stick to your burst, controlled damage. AM is great because there is no lead up time other than the projectile's flight to the target, but with a good Fire spec/gearset you should be able to be more efficient and stay near on the damage. If you do use Arcane look for breif spots to pop a squat and drink - even with occasional downtime from drinking it's obvious that Arcane is outdpsing you on trash.
Finally one REALLY important thing to keep you doing good on the mindless trash is to be using your cooldowns and trinkets. Why not go all out while throwing an invis in there? Why not pop both your 3 minute trinkets AND combustion at once just to see some crazy numbers. If your cooldowns are untapped 95% of the time it WILL make a difference in your performance - especially for fire.
I tend to save my cooldowns incase something goes awry during trash, that is unless we are facing a boglord in SSC with fire vulnerability... then seeing my 9-10k fireball crits makes me want to pop everything!
As I stated before, as long as you are doing your job (CC/dps) and not leading to wipes because of pulling aggro you are doing fine.
As I stated before, as long as you are doing your job (CC/dps) and not leading to wipes because of pulling aggro you are doing fine.
damage meters are for finding the worst, not the best. if you are in the bottom three, then you need to change/fix something; otherwise, if the raid succeeds then you're doing great.
mages are IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM AT A DISADVANTAGE in kara, maybe in Zul'Aman when you get rotated out for certain bosses. Mages shud rock kara flat out regardless of spec. There is no CC needed from them ,there are no resists to any of there skill trees, there is nothing preventing you from succeeding in that environment.
I would look into some reduced threat items maybe subtlety to cloak enchant. Also be sure to use your cool downs all the time, when I first started raiding i would forget things like combustion or trinkets. Now I look at them all the time saying damnit I know its been 2 minutes. Anyway keep your head up well geared spriests/locks/ele shamans tend to have kick *** dps regardless of spellhit. That is mainly due to the fact there main damage spells dont take 3s to cast which is why mages need spellhit to make sure that those 3 seconds weren't wasted on a miss.
I would look into some reduced threat items maybe subtlety to cloak enchant. Also be sure to use your cool downs all the time, when I first started raiding i would forget things like combustion or trinkets. Now I look at them all the time saying damnit I know its been 2 minutes. Anyway keep your head up well geared spriests/locks/ele shamans tend to have kick *** dps regardless of spellhit. That is mainly due to the fact there main damage spells dont take 3s to cast which is why mages need spellhit to make sure that those 3 seconds weren't wasted on a miss.
Quote:
maybe in Zul'Aman when you get rotated out for certain bosses.
Huh? Why would you get rotated out? O_o
Don't use Scorch on most trash - save it for the big stuff, like the robots, that take a while to kill, or on the really fast stuff that doesn't last long enough.
But in the end, trash is trash. How are you doing on *bosses*? I usually place down around 12th on trash, 3rd or higher on bosses, netting me about 7th-9th overall. Looking at the total damage, you would have no idea that I'm sometimes pulling 50% more total damage than most of the other DPS (we've had Leo kills that me, a fire mage, and a destro lock together netted 37% of the raid's damage).
Also, I would get Recount. It's basically an in-game WWS parse, except you get overall plus last 5 fights instead of overall plus trash plus each boss attempt/kill. It also gives you a much better/faster visualization of abilities used and such.
lsfreak wrote:
Don't use Scorch on most trash - save it for the big stuff, like the robots, that take a while to kill, or on the really fast stuff that doesn't last long enough.
The rule I've read is that if you can get 3 fireballs off afterwords 2 scorches are worth it. Haven't mathed it out though.
If i were you I would DL my own meter and clear it before a boss then show the little punk how you smoked him on a mob that actually matters.
KTurner wrote:
If i were you I would DL my own meter and clear it before a boss then show the little punk how you smoked him on a mob that actually matters.
Very true, unless the boss fight was under a certain time frame in which ase Arcane would still dominate Fire... probobly around 5 minute mark, potentially even longer.
Point is here, though, that in these sorts of fights as long as you keep a decently paced spell rotation you'll find yourself outDPSing the meleers, who are the ones that dominate when dealing with trash.
THAT is the reason you are important to the raid -- for the extra dps when you need it, not when it's easier to rack up.
Also - about the cooldowns obviously if your uncomfortable with a certain situation (maybe tanks not doing so well or its your first time somewhere with a certain group of people) save your trinkets and play defensively -- there is a time and place for that. If there is one thing I hate in WOW, though, it is people that consistently play defensively when there is absolutely no reason to. When your on your 50th run of a certain raid, you should know when you can pop CDs and when you can't. Not popping them easily detracts a huge amount of efficiency and a good bit of DPS -- there is no reason not to. Saving 3minCDs for 45 minutes IS a waste of efficiency, and as a DPS quite frankly I consider that not doing your job to it's max potential.
tzsjynx wrote:
Not popping them easily detracts a huge amount of efficiency and a good bit of DPS -- there is no reason not to. Saving 3minCDs for 45 minutes IS a waste of efficiency, and as a DPS quite frankly I consider that not doing your job to it's max potential.
That's why I macroed them to my fireball cast. When I need to hold back on cooldowns, it's probably a safe bet that I should hold back on fireballs too.
I've experienced the same thing when running lower lvl instances with higher lvl teams. (aka - running lowbie's through) The other higher lvls will get better DPS, because even though I'm able to bring down the mob myself, I am usually asked not to be the opening shot because it will bring me down to 50% 60% HP. So the main tank will pull, start pounding away, then my fireball hits when it's at 70% health.... I either instant cast or scorch cause the next fireball would not hit (Dead) or would hit with <10% health (Waste) on the mob.
Honestly - you don't bring the mage for the trash mobs. It's the long fights that we shorten...
Honestly - you don't bring the mage for the trash mobs. It's the long fights that we shorten...
lsfreak wrote:
Quote:
maybe in Zul'Aman when you get rotated out for certain bosses.
Huh? Why would you get rotated out? O_o
I'm pretty sure there are 3 bosses in ZA that don't drop any caster gear. So why wouldnt you get rotated out for the sake of giving others a chance at loot they can use? My guild is fairly large and we rotate players constantly for the sake of balance on each boss and giving us the best chance to win.
All the bosses drop caster gear.
Eagle + first chest = regen/socket ring, haste (healing) neck, haste cloak, haste shoulders
Bear + second = bracers + staff
Dragonhawk + third = haste boots, dagger, and the ring of win
Lynx + fourth = haste robes
Hex Lord = trinket and helm
Zul'jin = haste sword and haste neck
Plus, rotating people in means you aren't getting the chests. It would be better to put together multiple groups and have at least one group capable of getting the BT-level rings, rather than having a whole bunch of people locked into the same ZA and missing out on some of the best drops in there.
You really don't need a certain class balance on every boss. Two or three AoE (at least one non-warlock), two tanks (offtank with decent dps gear, if possible), three healers, preferably one spriest if you can.
Poldaren:
There's one problem with macro'ing your trinkets and abilities, and that is sometimes it's worth waiting a little bit to get them off. Like if the boss is at 25% and they're all up, it's probably worth holding off those 30 seconds to get Molten Fury in there as well. Or if, due to movement or whatever, one of them is up now and another one will be up in 10 seconds - it would be better to pop them together.
Eagle + first chest = regen/socket ring, haste (healing) neck, haste cloak, haste shoulders
Bear + second = bracers + staff
Dragonhawk + third = haste boots, dagger, and the ring of win
Lynx + fourth = haste robes
Hex Lord = trinket and helm
Zul'jin = haste sword and haste neck
Plus, rotating people in means you aren't getting the chests. It would be better to put together multiple groups and have at least one group capable of getting the BT-level rings, rather than having a whole bunch of people locked into the same ZA and missing out on some of the best drops in there.
You really don't need a certain class balance on every boss. Two or three AoE (at least one non-warlock), two tanks (offtank with decent dps gear, if possible), three healers, preferably one spriest if you can.
Poldaren:
There's one problem with macro'ing your trinkets and abilities, and that is sometimes it's worth waiting a little bit to get them off. Like if the boss is at 25% and they're all up, it's probably worth holding off those 30 seconds to get Molten Fury in there as well. Or if, due to movement or whatever, one of them is up now and another one will be up in 10 seconds - it would be better to pop them together.
lsfreak wrote:
All the bosses drop caster gear.
Eagle + first chest = regen/socket ring, haste (healing) neck, haste cloak, haste shoulders
Bear + second = bracers + staff
Dragonhawk + third = haste boots, dagger, and the ring of win
Lynx + fourth = haste robes
Hex Lord = trinket and helm
Zul'jin = haste sword and haste neck
Poldaren:
There's one problem with macro'ing your trinkets and abilities, and that is sometimes it's worth waiting a little bit to get them off. Like if the boss is at 25% and they're all up, it's probably worth holding off those 30 seconds to get Molten Fury in there as well. Or if, due to movement or whatever, one of them is up now and another one will be up in 10 seconds - it would be better to pop them together.
Eagle + first chest = regen/socket ring, haste (healing) neck, haste cloak, haste shoulders
Bear + second = bracers + staff
Dragonhawk + third = haste boots, dagger, and the ring of win
Lynx + fourth = haste robes
Hex Lord = trinket and helm
Zul'jin = haste sword and haste neck
Poldaren:
There's one problem with macro'ing your trinkets and abilities, and that is sometimes it's worth waiting a little bit to get them off. Like if the boss is at 25% and they're all up, it's probably worth holding off those 30 seconds to get Molten Fury in there as well. Or if, due to movement or whatever, one of them is up now and another one will be up in 10 seconds - it would be better to pop them together.
which is the main reason why I hold off when I am in there so that I know I am at a point where I can use my abilities to their maximum extent, I will use them multiple times a fight (if the boss lasts that long) but I like to not use them always on their first chance.
Trash means nothing if the ride goes smoothly. I get my *** whoopped by a BM hunter every chance I get, but then again it's trash so it doesnt really matter.
Concerning the arcane mage, he probably has 5/5 in the hit% talent for arcane (10% + hit +80 spell hit rating = hit cap) so sure he can drop off a lot of +hit for + crit compared to your 3% with elemental precision (or even 0% if you dont have it).
Waiting for molten fury is always nice, reason why I don't have my trinkets + icy veins macroed to my fireballs (6/44/11, tried getting icy veins + regular 10/48/3 raid specc, lost on efficiency but still is nice).
DMG meters will only help you weed out the weakest links (or at least find out who they are and help them deal more damage). Btw, how come your crit % isnt close to 30 as a fire mage?
Concerning the arcane mage, he probably has 5/5 in the hit% talent for arcane (10% + hit +80 spell hit rating = hit cap) so sure he can drop off a lot of +hit for + crit compared to your 3% with elemental precision (or even 0% if you dont have it).
Waiting for molten fury is always nice, reason why I don't have my trinkets + icy veins macroed to my fireballs (6/44/11, tried getting icy veins + regular 10/48/3 raid specc, lost on efficiency but still is nice).
DMG meters will only help you weed out the weakest links (or at least find out who they are and help them deal more damage). Btw, how come your crit % isnt close to 30 as a fire mage?
lsfreak wrote:
Poldaren:
There's one problem with macro'ing your trinkets and abilities, and that is sometimes it's worth waiting a little bit to get them off. Like if the boss is at 25% and they're all up, it's probably worth holding off those 30 seconds to get Molten Fury in there as well. Or if, due to movement or whatever, one of them is up now and another one will be up in 10 seconds - it would be better to pop them together.
There's one problem with macro'ing your trinkets and abilities, and that is sometimes it's worth waiting a little bit to get them off. Like if the boss is at 25% and they're all up, it's probably worth holding off those 30 seconds to get Molten Fury in there as well. Or if, due to movement or whatever, one of them is up now and another one will be up in 10 seconds - it would be better to pop them together.
I adapted to that issue by using Pyroblast and Scorch, using my evocate if it's up, or popping invis then, depending on the situation. Not to mention that I never said I don't have a second fireball setup to my same key with a shift modifier.
Also, spell my name right dangit!
Edited, Feb 1st 2008 5:23pm by Poldaran
Recent Visitors: 242
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (242)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Fire Mages on trash damage meters
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC