Logical Fallacy - Appeal to AuthorityFollow

What would you do without a rogue on second fight of Hyjal where the boss heals himself for a percentage of the damage he does? Bring a MS war or rely on Aimed shot /ew. Also first phase Alar cloak of shadow rotations on birds is pretty nice. Not to mention when played right with Combat Swords they are toe to toe with BM hunters and Locks on the damage meters.

Course having a balanced melee group is key, so I am not saying "bring nothing but rogues" but having 1-2 per raid is very nice.

Edit - but I am just being contrary, the most important thing to note is the first line of your post.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2008 6:23pm by bodhisattva

Lol, you mocked a crit chicken.

I guess the guild in the top 100 guilds of Europe (They got ****** by server transferring, but it WAS The Alterac Deviants of Genjuros)with a Moonkin owning the damage meters sucks. I guess the rest of his guld suck to let him get #1. I guess you and your guild that just managed to kill Vashj is better, eh?

I assume the narcicism is 100% fake. I mean, let's face it, your guild has **** all progression Bodhi.

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But of course, that is what you want me to post. You are demonstrating a logical fallacy by using it yourself. And, of course, trolling for the lulz.

Well, no dice here Bodhi. I detect this. I decided to write a trolled post anyway, because it amuses me.

Soo, yeah...

+1

I can see why you wouldn't want me to post, actually. I do kind of steal the glory from anyone else in the thread.

It's a trial, being as awesome as I am.

Kara is a tutorial.

An introduction and ramp up of the basic elements TBC raiding. It has simple gear checks, and tends to throw only 1-2 simplistic obstacles at you per fight. All while providing the necessary gear during the time of the average learning curve to allow guilds to move into 25 man content.

Gruul is the DPS litmus test to see if guilds are ready to progress. HK being only a simple vamp up of Moroes.

Magtheridon is a fight where it all comes together with transitions, adds, multi tanking, CC, etc. Which is why a lot of the guilds that couldnt down Mag but rather skipped ahead to try the easy content of Void Reaver and Lurker/Hydross tend to stumble. Because they were never able to pull it all together, which is what Mag is there to teach you.

Basically all of T4 is a ramp up to the meat and potatoes of t5 and the sweetness of t6. That is not to negate its difficulty when trying to work through it but rather an honest evaluation of it in retrospect.

i did not say 'every fight in the raid'. i said MT of the raid, the guy generally on top of the threat list during most of the raid. my question is again...in raids, who do you take: warrior or paladin?

i would argue you take the warrior as MT and use the pally and/or druid only for specific fights. if you use a Prot pally as your primary MT, you are probably making someone else work that much harder, but still getting the job done. is this assumption not correct?

Bodh's right. That's a dumb question. When talking tanks, you really should optimally have both.

No. It is absolutely not correct. The idea of an "MT" went out the window when fights stopped being about simple tank and spank mechanics.


Here's what you don't understand, I'll see if I can explain it to you. In SSC there are exactly 10 trash pulls in which only 1 thing needs to be tanked. These pulls are all tanked by which ever tank decides they want to do it, you just pick up the mob or a hunter MDs it to you. The choice is based on puller's preference. On all other pulls, the tanks are assigned targets and tank them individually, moving on to CC'd targets as their designated target dies, thus there is never an "MT" for trash. That is how trash works in 25 man content, unlike Kara, where the 1 tank picks up each individual mob through out the instance.

For boss fights, the MT is whomever is best suited to tank each boss, but it is done on a fight by fight basis. For Lurker (a slow attacking mob with an easily manipulated threat mechanic) a warrior tanks him. Morogrim's tidal wave eats shield block charges and he hits like a mack truck, so Druids actually tank him best, followed by Pallies, although they will normally be occupied by the murlocs. Leo attacks quickly and can eat charges fast, but the kind of reflected damage he takes from a prot pally, along with Avenger's Shield makes a prot pally ideal to tank him. Feral druids tend to DPS in Cat form, then switch to Bear when he whirl-winds so that they can stay in the entire time, giving you extra time on the enrage timer. Karathress is a funny fight. A druid on Tidalvess means he can soak the dreaded Windfury/Frost Shock combo. You can put your worst tank on Karathress because he doesn't hit very hard (even with Beastial Wrath and at that point you have extra healing anyway) and that tank will have an eternity to build threat. Hydross is best tanked by druids, since he doesn't have a crush mechanic and his attacks can't be blocked. His damage is entirely elemental and unmitigated by armor so the high HP total means you can take longer between phase changes. A prot pally can pick up the adds most efficiently between phases.

That makes 3 fights where a prot pally is the best choice for some aspect of the fight, 4 where druids are and warriors on another 2 (Charybdis and Lurker). No one is MTing anything. People are just tanking.

Edit: Forgot Vashj: Our 2 ferals put up like 1200 DPS, so the warriors get stuck on Vashj and the coilfang elites. I'm the resident prot pally, I actually switch to my main for this fight (warlock). Even then, the pally is better at picking up the adds before they do any damage. I just want my 4pc on my lock first.

Edited, Feb 4th 2008 3:26am by Loki

A few corrections:



There is no ideal tank for Lurker, but that's irrelevant. You'll have 3 tanks for the guardian elite adds, so you should have 2 tanks on Lurker who can rotate and ramp up their threat through Taunts.



Actually it's the Earthquake that eats a shield block charge. It also eats a Holy Shield charge. Due to druids complete lack of magic mitication they're actually not that great a tank on this fight, only about equal to a warrior. A Paladin will be worse because they cannot use Consecration for any threat generation.



Leo hits like a girl. He can be tanked by whoever has the best mitigation while still being in gear that will allow them to kill their Inner Demons. We use a Prot Warrior because their "dps" is laughable, and a prot pally can still heal.



There are so many ways to do Karathress that every tank can find their place, it's not a problem. Any tanking class can tank any of them, and there's no one ability that will make one better in a certain role than another.



I will concede that a prot pally picking up all adds is very good, I will dispute Druids being the best tank for Hydross. While he doesn't CRUSH, he still CRITS. There is no crafted resist gear for druids that reduces chance of being crit, and they're going to get smoked.



I would absolutely love to see a Vashj-level feral doing 1200 DPS. It doesn't happen, not until they're well into Hyjal/BT.

While I love advocating a large crew of capable tanks, we don't need to have misinformation going around just to make one seem better than the other.

If your druids can't max resist and still be uncritable you need new druids. Druids can easily maintain uncritability on this fight.




The magic damage from the quake and wave are easily soaked, along with crushes if you have a half-way decent druid tank. The real issue is that the quake leaves warriors open to crushes that druids are just going to soak anyway. While it would still eat a charge off of Holy Shield, that spell has charges to spare. Morogrim is only going to make it through 4-5 charges on an 8 charge spell naturally and even that is discounting parry, dodge and miss.


Oh, and as to Lurker... Feral DPS > Warrior. Since it doesn't matter who tanks it, let the warriors do it. Let the ferals beat on him.

Edited, Feb 4th 2008 4:15pm by Loki

How do your mages/warlocks hold up at the T6 level? And what about shadow priests for that matter?

lawl pally tanks. Oh wait that never happens here.



Look Bodhi, if I PM'd you once I PM'd you a million times. I DON'T HAVE THE THUMBS for it! The tragic threshing accident, the badgers in the corn, I explained it all.

edit: god DAMN you Bodhi and now you've made me make it public.



Edited, Feb 4th 2008 11:39pm by Celcio

I guess the upside is that you look bigger held up against my lack of digits...

Wait, that's why you've been angling for this, isn't it.