Logical Fallacy - Appeal to AuthorityFollow

It was just the Bracers. I remember researching Kara drops putting together my "want list" and having to leave that slot empty because they were Warrior only. The rest has always been (at least in the live game) non class specific.

He think he was speaking in generalities and slightly exaggerating. He's aware of Ret paladins that are in guilds with high progression, he even mentions one that raids with him that he is quick to point out "does medicore damage at best".

While the spirit of "Ret Sucks" is the same, it was intended to be a joke, according to the title. Saying that since he has progressed further than most Ret Paladins, he is automatically right (which is an appeal to authority logical falacy) when it comes to his arguments.

It doesn't mean his conclusion isn't true, it's just a fallacy.

Since Grant (Blood Legion Ret Paladin) gets brought up a lot (and even in this thread, somewhere), I thought I'd mention two things.

1) He hates Ret. He thinks it's a bad spec and that it brings relatively little to raids. How do I know? I did this thing called asking him. Being on the same server is win!
2) His DPS is, and always has been, on average at best.

It's just not a DPS spec, but nor is it that great of a utility spec. It's getting a bit of a day in the sun because it's one of the few solid counters to the FotM Resto Druid in smaller arenas, but it's still hardly what you'd call a fantastic PvP spec. More to the point, it just doesn't really cut it in PvE. It lets your other Paladins be lazy, but I don't think I'd count that as a major victory.

Blood Legion's Paladins are bad at keeping up blessings without a Retadin. Ours, by comparison, are... not as bad. It's a matter of training, but it's hardly impossible (or even really hard) for Paladins to keep up JoWis/Light/Crusader without a Retadin in 90% of encounters. It takes a bit of training and situational awareness, but you're effectively training stupid Paladins if you think or allow them to act as if they need a Retadin to keep Blessisngs applied.

It's like keeping certain healers in a group with a Shadowpriest 24/7. If you ever take that Shadowpriest away from them their lazy mana conservation habits will come back to bite them in the ***, hard. Rotating people or using the Shadowpriest for specific assignments keeps people lean, mean healing machines who are very grateful for the SP... not lazy people who can't cancel a heal if they get a big flashing raid warning telling them to nix it. What was a tool becomes a dependence. It doesn't mean that the tool is required to do your job; you've just traded what should be a welcome relief into an absolute necessity.

Cheers.

Wait, he bridges the gap because he hates himself and his talent spec?

I'm wondering what kind of gap it is exactly that we are bridging, and more importantly what we are bridging it with.

To say Ret is no good for PvE is just short sighted. Granted, the scrub ret pallies we have on THESE forums are no good for PvE, but we have a pair of ret pallies in my guild who, while undergeared, are adequate for what we bring them for. They keep up judgements, provide a buff, provide an aura and provide DPS. Are they putting up the DPS of a rogue or mage or hunter? No. But other than their DPS, rogues and mages are entirely useless and hunters are close to it. They make a decent showing, especially if dropped into a melee DPS group. As holy or prot they wouldn't even be allowed to join the raids.


The argument has been made that anyone who can play a Ret pally well should reroll prot/holy and serve a better purpose, and maybe in your myopic world with too few holy pallies it's true, but I run my guild and we've got more holy pallies than we'll ever use. We've got enough pallies up to give everyone every single pally buff. Why bring 9 holy pallies to heal when we can grab 2-3 holy, 1 prot and 1 ret, getting us, essentially, every possible use of the class. ****, past the 3rd holy pally I just get tired of seeing them.


Our Ret pallies aren't even superb, but they surely provide enough to justify a raid spot.

How's the door-crossing doing, with that inflated head of yours? And do you think your forum-pissing skills will help you in life much?

the argument of min/max should also apply to Prot pallies as well. very few encounters benefit more from a pally over a warrior at endgame. the raw threat and survival of a warrior trumps pally on most circumstances. because MTs have so few spots to give up, why would a raid take a Prot pally along when in the hierarchy pallies are arguably lowest on the pole...not middle of the pack, lowest.

Ret pallies can arguably maintain middle of the pack dps while adding raid utility, yet are so easily dismissed by most...not lowest, middle of the pack.

the fights where a Prot pally is 'required' can easily be sub'd in with a pally waiting at the entrance to be summoned in. whereas, the overall usefulness of a Ret pally must be felt for the entire run.

this leads to the final conclusion: only Holy spec pallies are designed for raiding, all else will gimp the raid.

lastly, i have yet to see a Holy pally spec enough into Ret for imp SotC AND Sanc Aura. to me this would allow for max raid utility and open up a spot for a higher end dps spot while keeping the Holy pally adequately spec'd for healing.

im also compelled to address the min/max of Holy pally(THE arena build) in high end arena. i would argue, all things equal, that a Disc priest is a better class for arena. though, many Holy pallies have progressed to high ratings my sig quote has alot to say about it.

in 2 posts, i show that while progressing through high end gameplay the entire paladin class is left hangin. out of 3 talent trees, only 1 is usable and for PvE only when we take into account overall effeciency. leaving me with a feeling of "lawl pally".

Allow me to slow it down a pace for you and do all the footwork as well since it is as clear as ever that you are unable to make even the tiniest intuitive leap without your hand being held.

Why did I mention healers and how their Strengths & Weaknesses as individual classes tend to be work extremely well when balanced in a raid? Because I was trying to draw the same conclusion/comparison between tanks. Feral druids have their weaknesses, as do Prot pallies as do even Prot Warriors /gasp!

Now I am perfectly aware that you are parroting arguments that both myself and Dilbrt have used in the past when talking to Prot Pallies about Prot pallies. I also realize that you might have trouble justifying my previous statements with my current ones. Let me assure the apparent dichotomy between the two on your part is not due to any fault of my own other than my being unable to convey hundreds of hours of raiding experience into a single concise post.

Allow me to do so now:

A Prot Pally despite his weaknesses has strengths that are undisputable, namely multi target threat generation. There are a number of encounters from Illhoof to Karathress to Hyjal and beyond where having the Prot Pallies strength easily makes up for any short comings and helps flesh out your raids tanking. On the other hand Ret in no way makes up for its weaknesses with its strengths which are easily provided for by either Prot or Holy Pallies.

If there are any further discrepancies in anything I have said about content you have never seen I would be glad to explain myself. /wink

Edited, Feb 3rd 2008 3:39pm by bodhisattva

my question is: are you better off taking a Prot pally over a Prot warrior as MT, if you had to choose, through each of the 25mans?