PvE versus PvP gear for raids..Follow

Aaah, of course. Survival. When I was Survival, I never ran out of mana either. TotH (and Efficiency if you have it) works wonders on a mana pool. But since you only need one Surv Hunter in a 25 man raid, there's bound to be BM Hunters around. Higher attack speed and less mana return makes even chainpotting and pure Steady/Auto rotations less than optimal for Mana.

A Rogue that's been raiding in almost every single raid I've been in since I first entered Karazhan was amazed when I specced BM. Not so much because I suddenly pushed him down to second place on SWStats/Recount, but more because he had never before seen me below 10% mana. Now, that's closer to the Norm than the exceptions. And from that, I draw the conclusion that PvP gear is going to gimp your DPS in any fight past Gruul. Well, unless you balance it with enough PvE gear of course.

As for SoW and Holy/Prot paladins:

If your Holy Paladins have the time to stay in melee range and refresh JoW on bosses, you either have too many healers in the raid, or you are overgeared for the encounter. Paladins don't have a single instant heal, or HoT in their repertoire. This would make any Paladin that is running in and out of melee inefficient at best. If you have a Retardin it's a wholly different matter of course.

Protection Paladins? Well, unless they are tanking, they are useless. They don't even have the DPS of a Prot Warrior, since most of their damage is reactive damage. And if they are tanking, they can't be judging SoW on the target since they are trying to keep their threat up, not give Mana to the raid.

So basically, a Holydin keeping up SoW will be inefficient for the raid itself, and situational even then. (Try that on Prince, and see how long your raid stays up. Then tally up all the other bosses past Prince where a healer meleeing the boss would be a retarded idea.) A Prot Paladin keeping up SoW would either be a bad tank, or a waste of a DPS slot.

Ah well. Different guilds do things differently, but if any of my Holydins had the time to keep up SoW on bosses... Well, I'd replace him with a DPS class instead, or have him specc Retardin. No use for a healer that isn't healing.

You're absolutely correct there. I have no idea how he got the idea that Aimed was a rotation shot. The 4 hunters were rotating our MD to the off-tank (the MT was a Feral and needed no aggro assistance) and I could see him using Aimed for that purpose, but no other. And we had a discussion in our Hunter channel immediately after a wipe when I posted that I didn't have Serpents on my hot bars and that I'd keep up Scorpid while the rest used Serpents, after we had a close fight and the Hunter class lead was calling for all the Hunter to pile on whatever DOTs we could right at the end. Io was incredulous, and when I explained that it wasn't worth my GCD he almost became belligerent. He's like that...

That was another point I made to one of the other Hunters on that raid that I am close with. Io had only increased STA as an advantage over the other Hunters. And he died on both attempts. Dying is not a true indicator of skill, it happens for many reasons and not all of them mean you suck, especially in a raid where there are players assigned the chore of keeping people alive and very much so in Gruul's where other players can essentially assassinate you with Shatter. But it does show that he gimped his DPS for a survivability advantage and still was not able to capitalize on that advantage.

It's not a completely fair comparison, I'll agree. There's little way to get a completely fair comparison between two Hunters. But it's my estimation that even adjusting his shot rotation to match any of the other Hunters in that raid, and living, he would have been last amongst the Hunters.

I just wanted to point out, that you did just compair s3 gear to kara gear, that is just upsetting. what guild wouldnt take a full s3 geared person to kill opera LOL you gotta be kidding me? that is NOT the way to compair this. You need to keep them on scale... t4 = s1, t5 = s2, t6 = s3 etc. If you want to compair that do it right...

Also I think the biggest point, at least with my guild is I wont take someone full s3 to my guild because mainly, it shows they are more interested in pvp, or even if they now want to do pve instead, they are going to a guild thats in hyjal and BT instead of starting from the bottom and moving up, they want a free ticket to the end game just beacuse they can spend hours and hours in arenas. Also, dps, the time you can last in fights, plus what you know about pve and strats and the ability to understand exactly what needs to happen, isnt learned from pvp, and def not from the gear. I wish pvp was the old way, make ppl work for the num1 gear. I mean my hunter right now is my pvper, almost full greens but a few peices of s3 gear, its funny to see him but its so easy to get pvp gear now... Full greens but 3 or so peices of s3...

I compare gear not by scale like s1=t4 or s3=t6..but how easy is to get something...And i found more easy to get 1750 arena points than to clear blact temple every week..

First you said:

Then you said:


For the rest of your post, all that I was saying is that if you have T6 and are facing teams in S1, your going to destroy them, even if it wasn't specifically designed for raiding, and same with S3 in Kara and T4 content.

If Blizzard took off all of the AP and Ag off of the arena gear, and replaced it with Stam and Res, it wouldn't work, you wouldn't be wearing it for Kara or Arena, even if it was meant for Arena. If someone uses it for raiding or PvE, as long as it is an upgrade, it is good for them.

People might be able to clear T4 content in S3, because it is an upgrade to anything that they would get, but your not earning progression, and you will have to get T5 or you will be out of mana and chain-chugging pots for the entire fight in later content.

You have to realize that Blizzard balances these things fine, if you guys are going to complain that it is easier to get an equivalent to T6 by getting your arena points, it is just an "equivalent". You also have your badge rewards, etc. that are "equivalent" to T5 content. The raiders that were through T5 content when ZA was released were angry about the same thing, they felt as though people coming from Kara could just walk in and take their "equivalent" gear, but that wasn't the case, and they wanted it to be harder.

It was balanced fine, and it only gets tough once you get to the bird boss, but even the cat after him is easy. These guilds that have cleared BT can't just come in and say that these Kara guilds are getting free epics? Right? This is the same thing as you guys saying that S3 is overpowered in T4 content, except this is PvE vs PvE gear.

Everyone is saying that an upgrade is an upgrade, and you're going to loose out on your DPS once you enter a raid that is "equivalent" to whatever arena gear you are wearing. If you say that you can raid in arena gear, then by all means do it, we have already told you what the gear is missing, or what is going to be missing.

Umm, a few things.
You know that SSC and TK drop T5 gear and T6 gear is from BT and MH? It surprises me that you got your "nearly full t6 gear" and still talk about having everything from SSC and TK.
I smell a troll, please do link the armory of your main char.
Another thing strikes me as odd (apart from that I destroy everything up to a 1800 rating with pve gear).
You do raid T6 content with an arcane spec after the last patch? Somehow, since the last patch we don't have a single mage speccing arcane anymore (fire spec with icy veins seems to be the most liked spec atm).

Lol, again miss type i ment t5, not 6, why would i say "nearly full t6 gear (everyone from ssc and tk) if i ment t6? think...

Vindicator's is wrist, waist, feet, neck, and finger, and by S3, I'm pretty sure that most people would assume that you were talking about the Vengeful Gladiator's Set, which cover head, chest, hands, and legs, and only come from arena points.

Edited, Feb 9th 2008 3:36pm by Yuppley