All ppl say that pve gear is better than pvp gear for the a pve enviroment..if you are lvl 70 i believe that in farming are both the same ..but what about raids..
If we consider the fact that pve gear is drop-lucky gear that you may never have it or at least you may have it after weeks,months, isnt it a decent choice to get some of the nice pvp epics which are very easy to get?
let see some examples:
1) axe......pvp=http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?source=live;witem=33670
pve(kara) = http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?source=live;witem=28587
2)wrist......pvp=http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?source=live;witem=33876
pve(kara)=http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?source=live;witem=28454
3)waist......pvp=http://thottbot.com/i33877
pve(kara)=http://thottbot.com/i28656
4) shoulders pvp=http://thottbot.com/i28333
pve t4(gruul)=http://thottbot.com/i29084
sorry about thottbot but some items still dont exist in allak..
My point is these pvp items are very easy to get..and most important you know when exacly will you get them..but the pve items?are just /roll
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PvE versus PvP gear for raids..Follow
Often you will find PVP items that are better than a lot of PVE epics, at least with regards to the earlier stuff. My Season 2 shoulders are much better than my T4 shoulders - I think you used those as an example.
It's best to look at it on a piece by piece basis, but going all PVP gear is likely to be to your detriment in a raid situation. It also depends on what you currently have. Often a piece of PVP gear that is not ideal for raids will still be better than the quest item you have equipped. Not always, though, as I used a set of level 66 blue legs over my season 1 legs until I got T4, as they were more appropriate for raiding.
It's best to look at it on a piece by piece basis, but going all PVP gear is likely to be to your detriment in a raid situation. It also depends on what you currently have. Often a piece of PVP gear that is not ideal for raids will still be better than the quest item you have equipped. Not always, though, as I used a set of level 66 blue legs over my season 1 legs until I got T4, as they were more appropriate for raiding.
That is my point..that they are some pvp items which are the same or better than pve items even for raids..And we should keep them in mind until we find something better.
Alot of the t4 pieces are sub par compared to the arena gear. Until you hit SSC and above, there is nothing wrong with wearing arena gear, because lets face it, it is better then most drops from kara/gruul/mag. There is a hunter in our guild who doesn't raid much, but fills in from time to time, has all pvp gear, and is still able to put out enough dps to stay in the top 5.
To much pvp pieces = bad dps on longer fights.
Thus you need pve gear.
Some PvP pieces however can be really good.
And a hunter getting top 5 dps in raids isnt that special, i got top 3 in half blues on Void Reaver...
And thats a melee friendly fight...
edit: also, comparing S2 to T4 is an unfair comparison.
S2 has a much higher itemlevel and thus is likely to be better.
If you compare them to gear with equal itemlvl from PvE they will be worse.
(there are some exceptions to that ofcourse)
Edited, Jan 30th 2008 4:31pm by Aethien
Thus you need pve gear.
Some PvP pieces however can be really good.
And a hunter getting top 5 dps in raids isnt that special, i got top 3 in half blues on Void Reaver...
And thats a melee friendly fight...
edit: also, comparing S2 to T4 is an unfair comparison.
S2 has a much higher itemlevel and thus is likely to be better.
If you compare them to gear with equal itemlvl from PvE they will be worse.
(there are some exceptions to that ofcourse)
Edited, Jan 30th 2008 4:31pm by Aethien
I would think that if the item is in the top 5 rated items for a hunter for its given slot, who cares where it came from?
What will your end dps difference be? 1%, 2%, 3%? big deal. Not even a blip on the radar.
It's possible the PvP gear gives you some additional survivability in any situation, which means you may still be cranking out dps when even that t6 geared guy might be a splotch on the ground from taking a few too many crits.
If the RAID wipes, no amount of gear is going to save your tush.
I'd look at all the abilities of items to determine their worth. Certainly some things have a better RAID functionality, and some better PvP functionality. If you want to optimize for something, go for it. However, someone in full S3 gear is still pretty darned well geared and should be useful in a raid so long as they play the RAID correctly. They may be slightly lower dps than someone in fully optimized RAID gear but it shouldn't be bad enough for you to turn your nose up at them.
Just like someone in full T6 gear wouldn't be sneezed at in the Arena. Serious gear is serious gear. It all has its major focus but should work better than any blues at 70.
What will your end dps difference be? 1%, 2%, 3%? big deal. Not even a blip on the radar.
It's possible the PvP gear gives you some additional survivability in any situation, which means you may still be cranking out dps when even that t6 geared guy might be a splotch on the ground from taking a few too many crits.
If the RAID wipes, no amount of gear is going to save your tush.
I'd look at all the abilities of items to determine their worth. Certainly some things have a better RAID functionality, and some better PvP functionality. If you want to optimize for something, go for it. However, someone in full S3 gear is still pretty darned well geared and should be useful in a raid so long as they play the RAID correctly. They may be slightly lower dps than someone in fully optimized RAID gear but it shouldn't be bad enough for you to turn your nose up at them.
Just like someone in full T6 gear wouldn't be sneezed at in the Arena. Serious gear is serious gear. It all has its major focus but should work better than any blues at 70.
Quote:
To much pvp pieces = bad dps on longer fights.
How do you figure? lack of int? big freaking deal, thats what consumables are for, I have raided into ssc, with 4k mana unbuffed, and never, ever, ever once ran out of mana using a full max specials rotation, and AotH. So to say that pvp gear is bad for pve just because of lack of int is the dumbest thing i ever heard. Last time i checked, agi, ap, crit, and hit were the important stats. Im not saying int isnt nice, but it is a bonus for me, nothing else.
Quote:
edit: also, comparing S2 to T4 is an unfair comparison.
S2 has a much higher itemlevel and thus is likely to be better.
S2 has a much higher itemlevel and thus is likely to be better.
Which is exactly why its better then t4, s2 is t5 equivalent, and s3 is t6 equiv.
The bottom line is this:
If its an upgrade, wear it. PVE, PVP, badge rewards, whatever, its not important where it comes from.
If i was just starting out, i wouldn't even bother with anything before ssc, because you can just get the arena gear, and skip the months of farming kara/grull.
Edited, Jan 30th 2008 2:16pm by montaghar
montaghar wrote:
Quote:
To much pvp pieces = bad dps on longer fights.
How do you figure? lack of int? big freaking deal, thats what consumables are for, I have raided into ssc, with 4k mana unbuffed, and never, ever, ever once ran out of mana using a full max specials rotation, and AotH. So to say that pvp gear is bad for pve just because of lack of int is the dumbest thing i ever heard. Last time i checked, agi, ap, crit, and hit were the important stats.
You are lying that.
I have 6.2k mana unbuffed, use pots the whole time and i get very close to OOM during (8+ minute) bossfights.
Oh, and i raid as SV with maxed effeciency, ToTH and 40% crit raidbuffed.
Thats 23.33% manacost reduction/return.
Quote:
The bottom line is this:
If its an upgrade, wear it. PVE, PVP, badge rewards, whatever, its not important where it comes from.
If its an upgrade, wear it. PVE, PVP, badge rewards, whatever, its not important where it comes from.
Also, S1 isnt very good for dps either, there are blue's with better dps.
(scaled greaves for instance)
Blizzard has done a really good job keeping PvP and PvE gear separated.
And although PvP gear isnt useless in PvE (and vice versa) it IS sub-optimal.
Aethien wrote:
montaghar wrote:
Quote:
To much pvp pieces = bad dps on longer fights.
How do you figure? lack of int? big freaking deal, thats what consumables are for, I have raided into ssc, with 4k mana unbuffed, and never, ever, ever once ran out of mana using a full max specials rotation, and AotH. So to say that pvp gear is bad for pve just because of lack of int is the dumbest thing i ever heard. Last time i checked, agi, ap, crit, and hit were the important stats.
You are lying that.
I have 6.2k mana unbuffed, use pots the whole time and i get very close to OOM during (8+ minute) bossfights.
That greatly depends on the raid group, group composition and the fight mechanics.
- If you have >= 3 Pallies, you'll have an additional manareg buff
- A shadow priest will give you insane mana reg.
- A pally keeping that mana reg thingy on the boss (that thing which can give you 89mana per shot back with a really high proc rate).
If you have all those three things, you won't need to pot at all and can blow through all specials without worrying about mana at all.
If you have none of those things and are trying a rotation with a lot of specials (and you are on scorpid sting duty on top of that), probably any hunter with any spec will get oom even if he chain pots.
In my raid setup there are two Arena Season 2 items. They are simply as good as tier 5 items and I have nothing better on those slots. Furthermore it is nice to have a ton of HP in certain boss fights. With unbuffed 9.6k HP I can usually survive tight situations a lot longer than other DDs wich gives me that additional second or two to get out of that AE effect.
In my raid group we usually bring three or four pallies. I never have a shadow priest, but there is that mana reg thingy (I wish I knew the english name for that spell) on the boss on almost every boss.
I have no big mana issues, although I use a lot of super mana pots on longer boss fights.
Fel mana pot > super mana pot.
Fel gives guaranteed more mana then the max of super.
This i just dont believe.
You need all those buffs/mana regen to keep your mana up if you only have 4k unbuffed (so ~5k mana buffed, probably lower).
Especially if you are using specials all the time.
And dont keep misunderstanding me, i am 110% behind using PvP items in PvE, as long as you dont use to much.
(hell, i'm using S1 legs right now because they are better then BL and i'll be using the S3 axe in a few weeks.)
Edit: Anyone who wants to calculaet what kind of Mp5 you'd need to keep full specials rotation going for 10+ minutes with only 5k mp?
Edited, Jan 31st 2008 4:19pm by Aethien
Fel gives guaranteed more mana then the max of super.
Monthagar wrote:
I have raided into ssc, with 4k mana unbuffed, and never, ever, ever once ran out of mana using a full max specials rotation, and AotH.
This i just dont believe.
You need all those buffs/mana regen to keep your mana up if you only have 4k unbuffed (so ~5k mana buffed, probably lower).
Especially if you are using specials all the time.
And dont keep misunderstanding me, i am 110% behind using PvP items in PvE, as long as you dont use to much.
(hell, i'm using S1 legs right now because they are better then BL and i'll be using the S3 axe in a few weeks.)
Edit: Anyone who wants to calculaet what kind of Mp5 you'd need to keep full specials rotation going for 10+ minutes with only 5k mp?
Edited, Jan 31st 2008 4:19pm by Aethien
Aethien:
It would all depend on what your definition of 'sub optimum' is. Anything that isn't the BEST item in the game would be 'sub optimum'. By that definition only a HANDFUL of players would be allowed into RAIDs and nobody trying to GET that gear would be allowed in to get it. So, really, we need to zoom out to a bigger picture view here.
I don't believe you NEED to go full efficient mana rotation for absolute maximum DPS at all times. Some bosses even have out of combat areas to let you go drink. Most bosses, it appears to be about keeping steady DPS on target and lower DPS just results in a longer fight. If the HEALERS can keep from going OOM, it's generally just a matter of time.
So, if you're cranking out 50K DPS per minute at max but would go OOM and 45K DPS/min at steady without going OOM, then the boss takes what, an additional 10 seconds to kill? Over a 10 minute fight, that's pretty much nothing. (numbers are just there for an example, nothing else)
Yes there will be times it will be close, but certainly once you have an experienced group, it won't be. Everyone will know the strategies, everyone will know their job and it just becomes a matter of time.
PvP gear may result in a bit lower DPS from a given Hunter, but they may have more utility elsewhere (perhaps closer to the boss and able to take a better beating, being able to pull a boss off a healer long enough to let the MT take it back, etc.) and provide some good damage anyway. So, perhaps 'sub optimal' in comparison DPS, but not by much, and 'optimal' in survivability in the encounter which will probably make a difference as often as the slightly lower DPS would. So maybe we can call it a wash.
It would all depend on what your definition of 'sub optimum' is. Anything that isn't the BEST item in the game would be 'sub optimum'. By that definition only a HANDFUL of players would be allowed into RAIDs and nobody trying to GET that gear would be allowed in to get it. So, really, we need to zoom out to a bigger picture view here.
I don't believe you NEED to go full efficient mana rotation for absolute maximum DPS at all times. Some bosses even have out of combat areas to let you go drink. Most bosses, it appears to be about keeping steady DPS on target and lower DPS just results in a longer fight. If the HEALERS can keep from going OOM, it's generally just a matter of time.
So, if you're cranking out 50K DPS per minute at max but would go OOM and 45K DPS/min at steady without going OOM, then the boss takes what, an additional 10 seconds to kill? Over a 10 minute fight, that's pretty much nothing. (numbers are just there for an example, nothing else)
Yes there will be times it will be close, but certainly once you have an experienced group, it won't be. Everyone will know the strategies, everyone will know their job and it just becomes a matter of time.
PvP gear may result in a bit lower DPS from a given Hunter, but they may have more utility elsewhere (perhaps closer to the boss and able to take a better beating, being able to pull a boss off a healer long enough to let the MT take it back, etc.) and provide some good damage anyway. So, perhaps 'sub optimal' in comparison DPS, but not by much, and 'optimal' in survivability in the encounter which will probably make a difference as often as the slightly lower DPS would. So maybe we can call it a wash.
When i am re-generating any where from 9-12k mana in a boss fight, yes its very possible, pm me if you want to look at a years worth of wws logs that will back me up. Not to mention if a shadow preist is in your group, i dont drop below 95% mana.
Edited, Jan 31st 2008 11:41am by montaghar
Edited, Jan 31st 2008 11:41am by montaghar
No. Survivability should not be an issue in a raid, assuming you have competent healers. Most T5 bosses do *not* do a lot of AoE damage that is not avoidable. Think about that. There ARE bosses which do AoE damage (VR, Lurker, Alar, etc) but it is avoidable for the most part. The bosses which do AoE damage to the entire raid, it is usually for a pitiful amount. (2-4k) Fully raid buffed, you should have at least 10k life for T5 raiding. (As a hunter, I'm not too sure about other classes)
Your healers should be able to keep up with this. If not, it is time to find new healers. As for the whole "fighting closer to the boss and taking a bigger beating," why? If you can stand far away from the boss and do the same amount of damage, but take less in turn, why stand closer? And if your healers are pulling agro off of the MT, you need a new main tank.
You are also in the raid to DPS. If you're not going 100% the entire time, you don't deserve to be there.
Put it this way, and repeat this mantra: PvP != PvE.
Now, if you look at the item levels, Season 3 gear (Vengeful Gladiator's) has a much higher item level than T4. This is to be expected. Why? Well because S3 gear was intented to "represent" T6. Is it better than T4? Yes. Is it better than T5? Debatable.
If you look at my armory, I raid in a combination of SSC/TK gear, T5, Merciless, and Vengeful. Why? Well my gear is kinda like a dance. Being Marksman (LOL) I have a large AP pool. So gear with +attack doesn't really excite me much. Instead, I go for gear with +crit, because it benefits me more than simply AP. And seeing as S2/3 gear has a lot of crit, it makes me happy.
Soooooo, I know I may have come off as a bit harsh, but this is the point I'm trying to make. If you believe that Arena gear is better, you are mistaken. No "set" gear is better than any other. (Assuming you're comparing the same tier of sets) You have to look at your gear, and decide what you want. IF you want to sacrifice mana efficency for higher attack power and crit, so be it. If you want to keep the same amount of attack power but raise your crit, so be it.
You have to use your gear to find a nice harmony and balance between stats.
Your healers should be able to keep up with this. If not, it is time to find new healers. As for the whole "fighting closer to the boss and taking a bigger beating," why? If you can stand far away from the boss and do the same amount of damage, but take less in turn, why stand closer? And if your healers are pulling agro off of the MT, you need a new main tank.
You are also in the raid to DPS. If you're not going 100% the entire time, you don't deserve to be there.
Put it this way, and repeat this mantra: PvP != PvE.
Now, if you look at the item levels, Season 3 gear (Vengeful Gladiator's) has a much higher item level than T4. This is to be expected. Why? Well because S3 gear was intented to "represent" T6. Is it better than T4? Yes. Is it better than T5? Debatable.
If you look at my armory, I raid in a combination of SSC/TK gear, T5, Merciless, and Vengeful. Why? Well my gear is kinda like a dance. Being Marksman (LOL) I have a large AP pool. So gear with +attack doesn't really excite me much. Instead, I go for gear with +crit, because it benefits me more than simply AP. And seeing as S2/3 gear has a lot of crit, it makes me happy.
Soooooo, I know I may have come off as a bit harsh, but this is the point I'm trying to make. If you believe that Arena gear is better, you are mistaken. No "set" gear is better than any other. (Assuming you're comparing the same tier of sets) You have to look at your gear, and decide what you want. IF you want to sacrifice mana efficency for higher attack power and crit, so be it. If you want to keep the same amount of attack power but raise your crit, so be it.
You have to use your gear to find a nice harmony and balance between stats.
Quote:
However, people who ONLY raid seem to be completely against PVP gear for raiding. But PVP people who also raid believe completely in it. I'm wondering if claiming PVP gear sucks for PVE is more of a denial issue? Great gear can be attained outside of a raid situation even though some people simply refuse to admit it.
I couldnt have said it better. I am not a pvp oriented hunter, i am a raider. Sure it stings to see people in all pvp gear doing the same dps, but you know what, im over it, and have picked up as many peices of pvp gear that i can. An upgrade is an upgrade, and i just recently disenchanted pretty much every piece of gear i got in kara/grull, after keeping it in my bank for 3 months, and im doing more dps then in my "pve" gear.(and i got 16 void crystals to play with hehe)
Zeromatter wrote:
No. Survivability should not be an issue in a raid, assuming you have competent healers. Most T5 bosses do *not* do a lot of AoE damage that is not avoidable. Think about that. There ARE bosses which do AoE damage (VR, Lurker, Alar, etc) but it is avoidable for the most part. The bosses which do AoE damage to the entire raid, it is usually for a pitiful amount. (2-4k) Fully raid buffed, you should have at least 10k life for T5 raiding. (As a hunter, I'm not too sure about other classes)
<snip>
You are also in the raid to DPS. If you're not going 100% the entire time, you don't deserve to be there.
<snip>
You are also in the raid to DPS. If you're not going 100% the entire time, you don't deserve to be there.
Those two statements are in opposition to each other. If there is no threat from the bosses (due to competant healers) then DPS becomes a matter of time (my point) and is just a 'rate' of DPS.
I'm am specifically avoiding the term 100% because that means nothing. If a RAID geared character's 100% efficient mana shot cycle is 50k DPS/min and a PVP geared characters 100% efficient mana shot cycle is 45k DPS/min, then there's a whopping difference of 5k per minute. Both are dealing 100% DPS. The PvP character might have a burst capability higher than the RAID geared person, but since everyone is centering on mana efficiency for RAID, that's only bonus damage and not being considered here by me.
So my belief is that no matter WHAT gear a character is wearing, if it's 70 epic, they'll be in shape to RAID just about anywhere they want. The difference will not be high enough to worry about, and as you agreed Zeromatter, if the healers are competant, it doesn't matter, it only makes the fight last a few moments longer.
Just as an epic T4-T6 RAID geared character is still a problem in the Arena for PvP geared characters. They are still effective DPS-ers.
A fully S3 equipped character trying to RAID to get some T6 gear should not be a boat anchor. The gear should be good enough to get into a RAID and be effective. There's just not enough of a difference to worry about it. I don't know why there's the elitism running around. It's hard to get all the high end gear. You have to have the skills and time to get it.
In the end, Zeromatter is right though, a mish mash of gear is probably the best for class utility, but if it's all homogenous (PvP or PvE RAID, or PvE Heroic) 70 epic, why would anyone say "It's bad, you can't go with us." That makes no sense at all. Mini-maxing BS is what it is. A good player is a good player and that counts for more than any differences between top shelf gear types.
from what i heard it seems that pvp gear maybe better for overall damage (agil, AP, crit) but it lacks int so you'll be needing to pop a lot of mana pots during a long boss fight just to keep ur normal DPS up
PvP gear is generally low on intellect and attack power and high on stamina and crit in comparison to PvE gear.
Thus having a lot of it kills your dps.
And popping a lot of mana pots is quite normal in fights like Gruul, Voidreaver and pretty much anything of that level or beyond unless you have a Spriest at your disposal every raid (but even with a Spriest you´ll have to use pots)
And I´ll say it again, because people seem to be unable to read this:
I am 110% behind using PvP gear in PvE, and I know that it can be very good for your dps, but I´m saying that you shouldnt be in all or mostly pvp gear because both your damage and consistency are gone then.
And all these threads will do if no one says that is giving people the idea that pvp gear is better for pve then pve gear.
PvP gear simply isnt designed to put out constant damage over 10 or more minutes, PvE gear is.
Just the same as PvE gear isnt designed to throw out some big crits and survive a beating like PvP gear is.
Although I´ll admit that Blizzard has been wrong before a couple of times with hunter mechanics and gearing, they arent here.
PvP and PvE are separated really well without making PvP gear useless in PvE or vice versa.
Thus having a lot of it kills your dps.
And popping a lot of mana pots is quite normal in fights like Gruul, Voidreaver and pretty much anything of that level or beyond unless you have a Spriest at your disposal every raid (but even with a Spriest you´ll have to use pots)
And I´ll say it again, because people seem to be unable to read this:
I am 110% behind using PvP gear in PvE, and I know that it can be very good for your dps, but I´m saying that you shouldnt be in all or mostly pvp gear because both your damage and consistency are gone then.
And all these threads will do if no one says that is giving people the idea that pvp gear is better for pve then pve gear.
PvP gear simply isnt designed to put out constant damage over 10 or more minutes, PvE gear is.
Just the same as PvE gear isnt designed to throw out some big crits and survive a beating like PvP gear is.
Although I´ll admit that Blizzard has been wrong before a couple of times with hunter mechanics and gearing, they arent here.
PvP and PvE are separated really well without making PvP gear useless in PvE or vice versa.
It really is simple:
If it is an upgrade --> use it
No matter if you got it from badges or arena or raids, if it is green, blue or purple.
Sometimes PvP gear will be an upgrade over PvE gear (and until T5 content there are some PvP items obviously better than PvE gear you had before, and if an item on a certain slot just won't drop it is nice to upgrade that slot with a PvP item).
@Aethien: Mana is not that big an issue if raid setup is somewhat decent. Full raid buffed I have a mana pool of 8k, but I believe I would manage with 6k without big problems (with full raid buffs I do not need to chain pot on boss fights and I always have mana left when the fight is over).
@Sloshot: dps/min does not make much sense. dps is already damage per second, thus 50k dps/min would be 50k * 60 = 3m damage per minute. And of course there are a lot of fights where it greatly matters if you do pump out enough dps. Not every fight can be prolonged even if the healers might heal the raid for an hour. Some bosses have hard enrage timers.
There are a lot of fights where dps is extremely important (you call those fights dps races).
The easy and early dps races are Gruul and Void Reaver.
Gruul get stronger every 30 seconds. Thus after 7 minutes your tank gets a lot of damage. After 8 or 9 minutes Gruul can one-shot a T5 or T6 geared tank.
Void reaver has an enrage that one-shots everything after 10 minutes.
Of course there are many other boss fights which are dps races:
- Hydros with a 10minute enrage and those adds he spawns which need a ton of dps to kill them early so that you have enough time to hurt hydros
- Kael where phase 2 and 3 are a sort of dps race. If you do not down the weapons and advisors fast enough, you won't survive the next phases
- Teron Gorefiend in BT (he kills a raid member every 30 seconds and keeps increasing the damage on the raid)
- Reliquary of Souls. This fight is 3 dps races in one encounter. P1 kill him before it kill the raid (0 healing); P2 kill him before you are fully oom and thus cannot heal the MT (90 seconds or so until everyone has 0 max mana); P3 kill him before raid damage gets unhealable (stacking damage against everyone starting with 100 damage, increasing by 100 every 3 seconds. Thus after 60 seconds it ticks with 2k on everyone every 3 seconds).
Of course there are many other fights which are dps races, in those fights it really matters if you do 45 or 50k damage in one minute.
If it is an upgrade --> use it
No matter if you got it from badges or arena or raids, if it is green, blue or purple.
Sometimes PvP gear will be an upgrade over PvE gear (and until T5 content there are some PvP items obviously better than PvE gear you had before, and if an item on a certain slot just won't drop it is nice to upgrade that slot with a PvP item).
@Aethien: Mana is not that big an issue if raid setup is somewhat decent. Full raid buffed I have a mana pool of 8k, but I believe I would manage with 6k without big problems (with full raid buffs I do not need to chain pot on boss fights and I always have mana left when the fight is over).
@Sloshot: dps/min does not make much sense. dps is already damage per second, thus 50k dps/min would be 50k * 60 = 3m damage per minute. And of course there are a lot of fights where it greatly matters if you do pump out enough dps. Not every fight can be prolonged even if the healers might heal the raid for an hour. Some bosses have hard enrage timers.
There are a lot of fights where dps is extremely important (you call those fights dps races).
The easy and early dps races are Gruul and Void Reaver.
Gruul get stronger every 30 seconds. Thus after 7 minutes your tank gets a lot of damage. After 8 or 9 minutes Gruul can one-shot a T5 or T6 geared tank.
Void reaver has an enrage that one-shots everything after 10 minutes.
Of course there are many other boss fights which are dps races:
- Hydros with a 10minute enrage and those adds he spawns which need a ton of dps to kill them early so that you have enough time to hurt hydros
- Kael where phase 2 and 3 are a sort of dps race. If you do not down the weapons and advisors fast enough, you won't survive the next phases
- Teron Gorefiend in BT (he kills a raid member every 30 seconds and keeps increasing the damage on the raid)
- Reliquary of Souls. This fight is 3 dps races in one encounter. P1 kill him before it kill the raid (0 healing); P2 kill him before you are fully oom and thus cannot heal the MT (90 seconds or so until everyone has 0 max mana); P3 kill him before raid damage gets unhealable (stacking damage against everyone starting with 100 damage, increasing by 100 every 3 seconds. Thus after 60 seconds it ticks with 2k on everyone every 3 seconds).
Of course there are many other fights which are dps races, in those fights it really matters if you do 45 or 50k damage in one minute.
Aethien wrote:
I am 110% behind using PvP gear in PvE, and I know that it can be very good for your dps, but I´m saying that you shouldnt be in all or mostly pvp gear because both your damage and consistency are gone then.
And all these threads will do if no one says that is giving people the idea that pvp gear is better for pve then pve gear.
PvP gear simply isnt designed to put out constant damage over 10 or more minutes, PvE gear is.
Just the same as PvE gear isnt designed to throw out some big crits and survive a beating like PvP gear is.
And all these threads will do if no one says that is giving people the idea that pvp gear is better for pve then pve gear.
PvP gear simply isnt designed to put out constant damage over 10 or more minutes, PvE gear is.
Just the same as PvE gear isnt designed to throw out some big crits and survive a beating like PvP gear is.
This I agree with completely, and I've said as much in prior posts on the comparison of PvE to PvP gear or the value of PvP gear in PvE content. A few choice pieces of PvP gear can be fine, and can improve your sustained DPS output. But come to the raid in a full set of PvP gear and you'll be last amongst the Hunters.
If you'd like an example, here's a WWS log which illustrates it nicely:
http://wowwebstats.com/x66ea6w5pp6i3
In this report I an 'Lapetus'. I've got zero PvP gear. My gear is mostly T4 level, coming from Kara and Gruul's lair, with a few crafted Epics (Ebon Netherscale set, Crimson Eagle boots) and a few remaining level 70 quest and/or Instance blues. 'Io', on the other hand, is in a full set of PvP gear minus only his weapons, legs, and boots. Look at the HK and Gruul kills. We couln't bring 25 Guildies together on this night and pugged the last few spots, and this caused some disruption of the normally smooth Gruul's Lair raid. All of the Hunters are guildies though. The other two Hunters are wearing one to three pieces of PvP gear. Note the difference in performance? Note also that of the four Hunters in the raid, 'Io' is not just the lowest DPS but is lowest by a large margin.
I am also more than able to run myself out of mana during any sustained Boss fight. It does not matter if I Fel Mana pot once my mana is down about 3000, and use my Drums of Restoration after that (a measly 600 mana, but it all counts), and switch to AotV when I get back down to about 1/3 mana. Eventually I run out despite the fact that my gear provides for pretty decent MP/5, and I use mana oil. So I don't quite believe that it's possible to be in a set of PvP gear, have 4k mana and a lousy MP/5, and still never run out of mana on a long Boss fight. Unless your shot rotation is very cautious about firing anything other than Auto Shots.
Fights where my mana is more difficult to run out are those with forced interruptions of my DPS, such as Nightbane. But if I'm just firing an Auto/Steady rotation and maintaining a Mark and Scorpid, there's no way to avoid running the tank dry.
On people claiming not to run out of mana in full PvP gear, I call bullshit... I have one single piece of PvP gear on my Hunter, and one single piece of Rogue gear (headpiece). The rest is T4 and T4 sidegrades. In Zul'Aman, I pot as soon as I am down 3k mana, and doing nothing but an Auto-Steady rotation, with BW/RF when up, I have several times ran out of mana before Pot is back up. And that's fully raidbuffed, minus a Shadowpriest.
Any fight past Gruul, will be too mana intensive compared to the Int/MP5 of PvP gear. So, the long standing agreement we've had on these boards still stands. One or two pieces of PvP gear if it is an upgrade. More, and you will find yourself lower on DPS than you could have been.
Any fight past Gruul, will be too mana intensive compared to the Int/MP5 of PvP gear. So, the long standing agreement we've had on these boards still stands. One or two pieces of PvP gear if it is an upgrade. More, and you will find yourself lower on DPS than you could have been.
jup, i run OoM too... 6.4k mana (a bit low i know), leather gloves (attumen) and S1 pants, the rest all PvE epics and blue´s
Kompera wrote:
...But come to the raid in a full set of PvP gear and you'll be last amongst the Hunters...
If you'd like an example, here's a WWS log which illustrates it nicely:
http://wowwebstats.com/x66ea6w5pp6i3
...Note also that of the four Hunters in the raid, 'Io' is not just the lowest DPS but is lowest by a large margin...
Ok, I have looked at your WWS report.
I have looked at the Gruul kill. There Io is a little below the other hunters, but not by much. Overall he did 573dps which is a joke for that fight. The reason why Io is the lowest on damage is at least two fold (and both reasons do not include his PvP gear).
1) His 'shot rotation' is total crap. He does not use steady shot. He only uses arcane and multi shot sometimes, aimed shot (why?) and serpent sting. Thus no matter what gear he has, he will be beaten by anyone with at least good blue items.
2) He was dead for some time in that fight (present 86% of the fight while the other hunters had 100%).
What I conclude from that parse is that Io is not a very good hunter. It does in no way show that he does low damage because of his PvP gear.
Mulgrin, you too should agree that never going OoM while raiding SSC with 4k mana unbuffed and a full special rotation is very doubtful at best right=
And no one here is saying tha PvP gear is bad for pve simply that it is sub/optimal compared to PvE epics of roughly the same itemlevel.
(maybe a couple of excetions to that, but i´m talking in general here)
And no one here is saying tha PvP gear is bad for pve simply that it is sub/optimal compared to PvE epics of roughly the same itemlevel.
(maybe a couple of excetions to that, but i´m talking in general here)
Aethien wrote:
Mulgrin, you too should agree that never going OoM while raiding SSC with 4k mana unbuffed and a full special rotation is very doubtful at best right=
That actually depends. I will post a bit about mana regen in raids later, have limited time atm :-)
But in short, with judgement of wisdom on the boss mob, goind oom is nearly impossible... but I'll post something with some calculations later. Stay tuned.
Aethien wrote:
And no one here is saying tha PvP gear is bad for pve simply that it is sub/optimal compared to PvE epics of roughly the same itemlevel.
(maybe a couple of excetions to that, but i´m talking in general here)
(maybe a couple of excetions to that, but i´m talking in general here)
Yes, I believe on that point there is a common understanding between all of us.
What makes things funny is, that many of us seem to be around end-Karazhan / start SSC/TK in raid progression. And for that level of raid progression a lot of Arena 3 items and Vindicator items are an upgrade. That of course is because they have a much higher item level, but that is also why many are persisting that PvP items are good in PvE :-)
You have to remember, Mulgrin, that SoW and Shadow Priest mana regen isn't something you can depend on. Ever. If it's there, it's a bonus. If it isn't there, you'd better have the gear to keep yourself up without these bonuses. We don't have a Retardin in our raidgroup, since we have more use for Prot and Holy Paladins. We have two Shadowpriests, but I am not stuffing them in the Hunter groups if we have a Healer/Caster group in need of mana regen.
Thus, you'd be quite worse off in pure PvP gear than anyone else in the raid. Of course, if you are sitting on a Shadowpriest, a Retardin and so on... Well, then you can put on that lovely S2/S3 gear of yours. But until then, stay in PvE gear, if you are PvEing. Of course, with all the prementioned qualifications as to Upgrades.
Thus, you'd be quite worse off in pure PvP gear than anyone else in the raid. Of course, if you are sitting on a Shadowpriest, a Retardin and so on... Well, then you can put on that lovely S2/S3 gear of yours. But until then, stay in PvE gear, if you are PvEing. Of course, with all the prementioned qualifications as to Upgrades.
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