Hey guys - need a little help. I'm currently muti specced, which I know is a pretty worthless build. My armory is linked in my sig. My question is - I'm always second in dmg to our shammy in 5-mans...second by a longshot. He almost doubles my damage, I'm usually at 24-26%, he's at 45% or so. Am I playing my spec wrong or is this pretty much what I can expect for damage output? My group wants me to switch to combat swords, which I'm willing to do, but I want to make sure I'm not shorting myself on the damage meters by playing wrong. These stats are usually from heroic ramps, shadowlabs, or slave pens.
Thanks for the help.
-Mag
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looks like most of your geat is +crit and +AP, both of which are great to have... I didn't check thoroughly but are you PVP or PVE? From the stuff that I've learned, +hit is better to have than +AP (I think that's what it was)... let me go look at my old threads and see if I can confirm and find it.
Edit to confirm:
Here's my original thread. (which I know you've ventured to =P) There's another one too I'll link in a second
"Try to find gear with other stats to do more damage, like +hit, +AP, +agi, +crit. About in that order."
Edited, Jan 29th 2008 4:00pm by xNocturnalSunx
Edit to confirm:
Here's my original thread. (which I know you've ventured to =P) There's another one too I'll link in a second
"Try to find gear with other stats to do more damage, like +hit, +AP, +agi, +crit. About in that order."
Edited, Jan 29th 2008 4:00pm by xNocturnalSunx
spec combat swords, spam SS and keep SnD up always.
ThomasMagnum wrote:
Hey guys - need a little help.
1. Pick up Gladiator's Slicer and Gladiator's Quickblade, and throw Mongoose on them
2. Spec combat and swords, and grab the useful talents in assassination with what you have left
3. Go to shadowpanther.net and look at the PVE starter gear section
4. Get the best item you can from each section, most of them are pretty easy to obtain
5. Use the shadowpanther.net enchantment section to get the best enchants, they're not expensive
6. Put your shammy friend to shame
75 Thief | Bastok, Hume, Titan
Linkshell: ED / ITV / EO
http://www.EternalDarknessLS.com (old LS site)
Linkshell: ED / ITV / EO
http://www.EternalDarknessLS.com (old LS site)
gear for +hit
hit>ap>agi>crit go like that
if you wanna stick muti, go 41-20-0... its not bad pve wise at all
slice n dice up at all times, go for 2pt slice n dice-5pt rupture-2pt slice etc (thats a basic cycle that works pretty well, if you get 2 piece of T4 it can be 1s/5r but 2/5 is fine to start with)
hit>ap>agi>crit go like that
if you wanna stick muti, go 41-20-0... its not bad pve wise at all
slice n dice up at all times, go for 2pt slice n dice-5pt rupture-2pt slice etc (thats a basic cycle that works pretty well, if you get 2 piece of T4 it can be 1s/5r but 2/5 is fine to start with)
Quote:
I'm usually at 24-26%, he's at 45% or so
if this is true its not you who is underpreforming in kara its the rest of your dps, between the 2 of you your producing 70% of the raids dmg which means the other 8 people are only do 30%. usual kara group for me has 3healer, a Main tank and an Off tank who'll do alittle dps when needed. that leaves 3 dps doing less than 10% of the dps each? either the rest of your dps suck or your % where very badly estimated.
ignoring this. when i first went kara i ws mut spec, its a perfectly good spec to start raiding with, but once you get past gruul you really need to start thinking of switching(mainly because of th poison ammune bosses which your gonna soon start fighting).
Just make sure you meet the min kara requirement 150hit 120ap 20%crit(25% for a dagger build) and try and have the S1 daggers as they give a nice dps boost to anything you where using before. if all these thing are done then you should have no problems catching that shamm,y up on your dps meter
pythonesc wrote:
Quote:
I'm usually at 24-26%, he's at 45% or so
if this is true its not you who is underpreforming in kara its the rest of your dps, between the 2 of you your producing 70% of the raids dmg which means the other 8 people are only do 30%.
ThomasMagnum wrote:
I'm always second in dmg to our shammy in 5-mans...
Muti is absolutely fine for 5-mans, you should be able do to decent damage. The shammy outdamaging you may be caused by huge difference in gear? You have some nice daggers, but hit rating and AP aren't that high.
To give a good answer, you should give some information about your play style (moves, cycles). Maybe you use Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot a lot, in stead of doing damage?
And having 2/2 in Sinister Strike while being muti makes me worry. :)
I don't know if the gear displayed in your armory right now is just your PvP gear or if you PvE in it too. If you do PvE in that gear then I see your problem (or one at least).
You have 81 hit. The hit cap (which you should aim for) is 363. You need A LOT more hit.
Also, Resilience is worthless in group PvE. So, either you need to get a second set of gear for PvE and gem it with +hit, or choose with this set if you want to PvP or PvE.
If you bring your hit up over 200 you should still be able to do decent even as Mutilate in 5 mans and OK in Kara. Don't expect to get much beyond that though.
You wont be topping the boards with a good group as Mutilate ever, but if you enjoy the play style and your not holding the group back, just get more hit, more AP and you should start doing better.
Unfortunately I cannot help you with PvE rotations though since I have never PvEed as Mutilate.
Edit: I would also try something like http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0053231051521015010513023050020050000000000000000000000000000000000 for a mixed raiding and PvP build. I could be completely off my rocker though.
Edited, Jan 30th 2008 4:13am by Nocthil
Edited, Jan 30th 2008 4:15am by Nocthil
You have 81 hit. The hit cap (which you should aim for) is 363. You need A LOT more hit.
Also, Resilience is worthless in group PvE. So, either you need to get a second set of gear for PvE and gem it with +hit, or choose with this set if you want to PvP or PvE.
If you bring your hit up over 200 you should still be able to do decent even as Mutilate in 5 mans and OK in Kara. Don't expect to get much beyond that though.
You wont be topping the boards with a good group as Mutilate ever, but if you enjoy the play style and your not holding the group back, just get more hit, more AP and you should start doing better.
Unfortunately I cannot help you with PvE rotations though since I have never PvEed as Mutilate.
Edit: I would also try something like http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0053231051521015010513023050020050000000000000000000000000000000000 for a mixed raiding and PvP build. I could be completely off my rocker though.
Edited, Jan 30th 2008 4:13am by Nocthil
Edited, Jan 30th 2008 4:15am by Nocthil
Quote:
I'm always second in dmg to our shammy in 5-mans...
my bad i miss read the original post.
acouple of peices of the assassination set would give you a very nice hit-rating boost, i assume your already trying to get these. you could also get the head enchant from the cenarion expedition as your revered with them, that adds 16hit-rating and 34ap which will also help you alot.
Thanks for the help - I didn't clarify that this is my pvp gear, hence the resilience over hit and crit over AP.
My main cycles are 2s/5r. Since I'm usually sapping the first target in pulls, I open with cheapshot>Muti>5pt Rupture, after the tank has gotten his rage up.
It sounds like I need to get some PVE gear. I like the gladiator set for PVP considering I don't arena enough to get S3. I'll work on getting the Assassination set for the +hit, and get the cenarion ref. EC on the headpiece.
Thank you! It's common sense now that I look at it, just needed a point in the right direction.
Edited, Jan 30th 2008 12:37pm by ThomasMagnum
My main cycles are 2s/5r. Since I'm usually sapping the first target in pulls, I open with cheapshot>Muti>5pt Rupture, after the tank has gotten his rage up.
It sounds like I need to get some PVE gear. I like the gladiator set for PVP considering I don't arena enough to get S3. I'll work on getting the Assassination set for the +hit, and get the cenarion ref. EC on the headpiece.
Thank you! It's common sense now that I look at it, just needed a point in the right direction.
Edited, Jan 30th 2008 12:37pm by ThomasMagnum
You may want to think about opening with cheap shot, especially if you have a warrior tank.
Prot warriors and feral druids generate rage by being hit and if the mob is stunned it's not hitting the warrior. If you have a prot pally tanking, cheap shot messes up his threat generation as most pally threat comes from reflective damage from them being hit.
Consider opening with garotte, throwing out a quick muti and then going into a 2s/5r cycle.
Opening with garotte may not seem like a lot of damage, but if you consider there might be 30-40 pulls in the entire dungeon, do 30-40 garottes is another 30-40k damage you do for the dungeon.
A 2s/5r cycle should be pitifully easy to keep up as muti. Gear for more +hit. If you have about 150-200 hit in 5-mans and heroics you should be fine. My rogue runs heroics with about 211 hit rating and I rarely see misses.
The assassination set is not necessarily the best set you can get. I threw up a pre-Kara gear list a couple weeks ago that is probably on the 2nd page of these forums. The gear I put on it was directly from shadowpanther.net with a couple of changes to get some extra hit. I think I ended up being over 300 hit rating in all gear from 5-mans, heroics, and rep rewards. One thing you may want to look into for +hit is 2 pieces of the wastewalker set, as the 2-pc set bonus is +35 hit. 4 of the pieces drop in heroics and 1 in regular level 70 5-mans. Farm for the one not in heroics and figure out which of the pieces in heroics is easiest to get and go for it.
Good luck with your efforts. Also, don't be disappointed if the shammy is out-DPSing you. Enhancement shamans can put out some very nice damage in 5-mans, especially if they focus their totems on increasing their damage and not the party's overall damage. He also might just have a distinct gear advantage on you as enhancement shamans can stack str/AP and crit rating without having to worry about getting as much hit as other dual-wielding melee classes.
Prot warriors and feral druids generate rage by being hit and if the mob is stunned it's not hitting the warrior. If you have a prot pally tanking, cheap shot messes up his threat generation as most pally threat comes from reflective damage from them being hit.
Consider opening with garotte, throwing out a quick muti and then going into a 2s/5r cycle.
Opening with garotte may not seem like a lot of damage, but if you consider there might be 30-40 pulls in the entire dungeon, do 30-40 garottes is another 30-40k damage you do for the dungeon.
A 2s/5r cycle should be pitifully easy to keep up as muti. Gear for more +hit. If you have about 150-200 hit in 5-mans and heroics you should be fine. My rogue runs heroics with about 211 hit rating and I rarely see misses.
The assassination set is not necessarily the best set you can get. I threw up a pre-Kara gear list a couple weeks ago that is probably on the 2nd page of these forums. The gear I put on it was directly from shadowpanther.net with a couple of changes to get some extra hit. I think I ended up being over 300 hit rating in all gear from 5-mans, heroics, and rep rewards. One thing you may want to look into for +hit is 2 pieces of the wastewalker set, as the 2-pc set bonus is +35 hit. 4 of the pieces drop in heroics and 1 in regular level 70 5-mans. Farm for the one not in heroics and figure out which of the pieces in heroics is easiest to get and go for it.
Good luck with your efforts. Also, don't be disappointed if the shammy is out-DPSing you. Enhancement shamans can put out some very nice damage in 5-mans, especially if they focus their totems on increasing their damage and not the party's overall damage. He also might just have a distinct gear advantage on you as enhancement shamans can stack str/AP and crit rating without having to worry about getting as much hit as other dual-wielding melee classes.
Do you have a link to that shaman's profile?
As above, switch cheap shot with garrotte, the tank should be getting hit anyways, so no need to stun the mob.
Also besides that, perhaps switch rupture with a quick SnD at the start? I know people often say SnD is a good finishing move; but perhaps that's just for combat, and you're assassination.
Edited, Jan 30th 2008 10:47am by digitalcraft
As above, switch cheap shot with garrotte, the tank should be getting hit anyways, so no need to stun the mob.
Also besides that, perhaps switch rupture with a quick SnD at the start? I know people often say SnD is a good finishing move; but perhaps that's just for combat, and you're assassination.
Edited, Jan 30th 2008 10:47am by digitalcraft
Slince and Dice is a good finishing move for any rogue, especially one with points in imp SnD, which any rogue should have for a PVE build.
The optimal attack rotation for any rogue is 2s/5r, meaning 2 combo points, slice and dice, 5 combo points, rupture.
With 3/3 in Imp Slice and Dice you should theoretically be able to have slice and dice and rupture both up all the time.
Muti builds don't have combat potency for energy regeneration, but they do have ruthlessness and relentless strikes to help with energy and combo points.
Muti is also known as a combo point building spec due to the fact that with a full energy bar you can go from 0-5 combo points with 2 mutis, as long as one of them crits. No other spec can build 5 combo points with a single energy bar like muti can.
It should be really easy to open with garotte, throw out a muti, get SnD up, muti a couple more times and get rupture up.
Once you get to this point i would saimply muti, snd, muti, muti, rupture repeat. Yes you will hit some patches where you're only putting up a 4-pt rupture, but the damage difference isn't going to kill you.
The optimal attack rotation for any rogue is 2s/5r, meaning 2 combo points, slice and dice, 5 combo points, rupture.
With 3/3 in Imp Slice and Dice you should theoretically be able to have slice and dice and rupture both up all the time.
Muti builds don't have combat potency for energy regeneration, but they do have ruthlessness and relentless strikes to help with energy and combo points.
Muti is also known as a combo point building spec due to the fact that with a full energy bar you can go from 0-5 combo points with 2 mutis, as long as one of them crits. No other spec can build 5 combo points with a single energy bar like muti can.
It should be really easy to open with garotte, throw out a muti, get SnD up, muti a couple more times and get rupture up.
Once you get to this point i would saimply muti, snd, muti, muti, rupture repeat. Yes you will hit some patches where you're only putting up a 4-pt rupture, but the damage difference isn't going to kill you.
Mutilate is by no means a trash build. It can put up with comparable numbers to combat builds depending upon the fight. Take some wise words about the muti build from one of my muti mentors.
While raiding with muti, a lot of people just worry about their SnD/Rupture cycles, and completely forget about Find Weakness, one of the most underrated Muti talents.
LordMeridus wrote:
For sustained fights (bosses and trash with a lot of HP) you want to use a 4+ cycle. SnD should be your primary finisher, rupture (when avaliable) should be your secondary finisher, and evis used only when both are already up. 4+ cycles basically use a finisher every time that you have 4 or more combo points on your target. This occurs rapidly with any mute build, as 2 mutes will give you at least 4 cp. Furthermore, you will get 1cp back on 60% of your finishers, and if that is followed by a crit mute you already have 4cp. With 2 piece T4 you can pretty much gaurantee that you'll get 2 4-5 point finishers (rupture and then evis) between your SnD refreshes.
You also want to try to time your finishers so that you can maximize find weakness. Save a bit of energy before hitting rupture, this will let you get both your mute's and even your evis into the FW cycle. Again, same goes with all your finishers.
You also want to try to time your finishers so that you can maximize find weakness. Save a bit of energy before hitting rupture, this will let you get both your mute's and even your evis into the FW cycle. Again, same goes with all your finishers.
While raiding with muti, a lot of people just worry about their SnD/Rupture cycles, and completely forget about Find Weakness, one of the most underrated Muti talents.
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