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Rez'ing RetFollow
Scholar
21 posts
There's been a lot of talk about Retribution lately. It's a good thing, I think. As a Ret pally, I really appreciate all the time everyone put into the helpful comments, the Ret FAQ that ToJ wrote up (great help, thanks!), and more.
One thing that I have not seen - I may have missed it - is a thread on how to make Ret better. What would a Retribution need to be more helpful in endgame. What would you suggest to Blizzard? And finally, what do you think blizzard will do?
FYI: I have not raided with my paladin, but I have done heroic instances. I do fairly well. I'm no pro gamer by any stretch of the way, but I have fun. Here is my build:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bronzebeard&n=Marrius
Cheers
Make ret have useful raid utlity, make ret have actual damage, make ret have more survivability. Basically change everything about ret because as it stands its pretty laughable.
Scholar
21 posts
Okay, this is where my noobishness will show because I get lost.
Survivability:
Soloing, I do very well. I can take on two even three at a time and still survive. In heroic and non heroic 5 man groups, I rarely take aggro, so I can deal damage without taking damage. There are moments when the entire party gets hit, so I take a potion and/or heal myself to help the main healer out a bit.
So I guess I don't get it. What does everyone mean when they say survivability? I just don't understand because - in my experience - I survive just fine.
Actual Damage:
In five man groups, I'm usually number two in DPS. Sometimes I'm number three. But really, we don't check very often. We just play. We survive 90% of the time, so I must be doing SOMETHING right.
My question is this: Do we HAVE to be number one in DPSing? In my experience, I'm better than average. I honestly don't see the problems everyone is talking about. And my guild has not complained either. As long as the party is getting the job done, isn't that enough? Does it matter if we kill a mob in 55 seconds rather than 30 seconds?
I know that our DPS isn't as good as a Rogue, but a rogue can't heal when the main healer needs that little extra help.
The way I see it, Paladins are gifted and cursed with the ability to do a lot. I've noticed that when we get better at DPSing, our healing suffers. When you become better at healing, your hit damage suffers. It's a balance. A Rogue is flat-out DPS in one form or another. They can't buff, they can't heal.
Perhaps I'm rambling, but the way I see it, Ret may not be as good, but in its current form, it's not that bad either.
nanago wrote:
Actual Damage:
In five man groups, I'm usually number two in DPS. Sometimes I'm number three. But really, we don't check very often. We just play. We survive 90% of the time, so I must be doing SOMETHING right.
My question is this: Do we HAVE to be number one in DPSing? In my experience, I'm better than average. I honestly don't see the problems everyone is talking about. And my guild has not complained either. As long as the party is getting the job done, isn't that enough? Does it matter if we kill a mob in 55 seconds rather than 30 seconds?
In five man groups, I'm usually number two in DPS. Sometimes I'm number three. But really, we don't check very often. We just play. We survive 90% of the time, so I must be doing SOMETHING right.
My question is this: Do we HAVE to be number one in DPSing? In my experience, I'm better than average. I honestly don't see the problems everyone is talking about. And my guild has not complained either. As long as the party is getting the job done, isn't that enough? Does it matter if we kill a mob in 55 seconds rather than 30 seconds?
What a lot of people are talking about is raiding. Do you have to be number one in DPS? Well the thing is that DPS is pretty much going to be why you're there. There's little that a Ret paladin brings to the raid that a holy or prot paladin doesn't. You don't CC, the buffs are the same, etc. Yeah there's the aura but it's not a make or break. So all that's left is for you to DPS the pants off everyone else.
If you're doing less or equal DPS than a class/spec with more utility then people are going to look past the equal DPS and look towards utility when selecting who goes and you're going to be passed over.
There's so much more to raiding than DPS but if that's all you have to offer then it had better be great DPS.
Oh and yeah, in a raid, it really DOES matter if you kill something in 30 seconds vs 55. (or 5 minutes vs 10)
Scholar
21 posts
I stand corrected. But back to the original thought... what could blizzard do to improve the class yet, keep things balanced.
So if a Ret pally needs more DPS, then what could be suggested? More Strength bonus? Another spell like Crusader Strike? An improved Aura better than Sanctity? Perhaps a new seal/judgement?
Perhaps we can have something similar to a priest's Shadow Form. This form or Aura can be active, giving us better DPS, but in return, a paladin would not be able to heal. It would give the pally more power, but attempt to balance the spec... just a though off the top of my head.
Edited, Jan 29th 2008 1:11pm by nanago
So if a Ret pally needs more DPS, then what could be suggested? More Strength bonus? Another spell like Crusader Strike? An improved Aura better than Sanctity? Perhaps a new seal/judgement?
Perhaps we can have something similar to a priest's Shadow Form. This form or Aura can be active, giving us better DPS, but in return, a paladin would not be able to heal. It would give the pally more power, but attempt to balance the spec... just a though off the top of my head.
Edited, Jan 29th 2008 1:11pm by nanago
I think Blizzard is thinking that currently, any boost to Ret's offensive capabilities will unbalance them in terms of their current defensive capabilities. Ret can already take a hit wearing plate armor, can heal themselves, bubble, and in extreme situations LoH. That's a good amount of survivability, and balances them out.
Unfortunately, in raiding unless you are a tank, you don't really need to take a hit. So a lot of the defensive capabilities of Ret don't really come into play there. In arena PvP, the best defense is a good offense, not the other way around, so while Ret can take a punch, it just means it takes a few more seconds to kill one, and in that time, the Ret might have gotten some swings in, but their lack of mobility hurts them there.
In order to "fix" the ret class, I think they would have to lose more defense in order to have a better offense. Maybe a form of some sort, though I think everyone is starting to get tired of forms, and we'd never here the end of it from druids. Anyway, we'd need to be able to trade our heals for better offensive options like spell interruptions or more seals/judgements or whatever.
Or let them be cavaliers and fight on their horses, doing extra damage cause hey... you're on a horse. Let them mount in instances, and they won't be able to heal on their horse. Give them some horse-like abilities, and you got yourself a nice Paladin there W2 style.
Unfortunately, in raiding unless you are a tank, you don't really need to take a hit. So a lot of the defensive capabilities of Ret don't really come into play there. In arena PvP, the best defense is a good offense, not the other way around, so while Ret can take a punch, it just means it takes a few more seconds to kill one, and in that time, the Ret might have gotten some swings in, but their lack of mobility hurts them there.
In order to "fix" the ret class, I think they would have to lose more defense in order to have a better offense. Maybe a form of some sort, though I think everyone is starting to get tired of forms, and we'd never here the end of it from druids. Anyway, we'd need to be able to trade our heals for better offensive options like spell interruptions or more seals/judgements or whatever.
Or let them be cavaliers and fight on their horses, doing extra damage cause hey... you're on a horse. Let them mount in instances, and they won't be able to heal on their horse. Give them some horse-like abilities, and you got yourself a nice Paladin there W2 style.
Thanks Nanago, nice to see this topic here!
I think to really make a ret paladin viable in this game, Blizzard or at least the paladin community need to get together on what a ret paladin should be. We all know what we would like it to be - a supermage/priest/tank that does outrageous DPS, shrugs off almost all damage and heals the rest. *bzzzt* - not gonna happen. So let's look at philosophy - what do you want a ret paladin to be, and what are you willing to give up from the generic paladin to get it?
Some possibilities that I have gleaned from the boards:
1) DPS. Give up just about anything for a reasonable chance at topping the DPS charts given similar levels of gear to mages, rogues, hunters, shadowpriests, and warlocks.
2) Raid utility - Accept third or fourth level DPS, but have enough in the way of different buffs and/or seals to adjust the entire raid DPS a noticeable amount.
Some other possibilities might include:
a) some small auras or debuffs, something good enough to actually want a paladin in melee. For example, lower the range on Retribution aura to 5 yards, but make it actually do sizeable amounts of burst damage - say, a chance to proc and reflect all damage. Or give devotion aura an extra 2-10% resistance to all schools of magic with talent points in the ret tree. Or maybe just make all auras work as both buffs and debuffs with appropriate talents - eg, Devo aura would raise armor for all party members in range, and lower it for all enemies in range, Conc would prevent interruption in casting for party members and slow casting for enemies, and so on.
b) a true crowd control ability - either faster casting, longer effect, or wider range of mobs affected by repentance, or possibly a new form of crowd control for demons or undead equivalent to priest's shackle undead, warlocks banish undead and elementals, or druids sleep beasts. (turn undead is a poor substitute)
Just a couple talking points.
I think to really make a ret paladin viable in this game, Blizzard or at least the paladin community need to get together on what a ret paladin should be. We all know what we would like it to be - a supermage/priest/tank that does outrageous DPS, shrugs off almost all damage and heals the rest. *bzzzt* - not gonna happen. So let's look at philosophy - what do you want a ret paladin to be, and what are you willing to give up from the generic paladin to get it?
Some possibilities that I have gleaned from the boards:
1) DPS. Give up just about anything for a reasonable chance at topping the DPS charts given similar levels of gear to mages, rogues, hunters, shadowpriests, and warlocks.
2) Raid utility - Accept third or fourth level DPS, but have enough in the way of different buffs and/or seals to adjust the entire raid DPS a noticeable amount.
Some other possibilities might include:
a) some small auras or debuffs, something good enough to actually want a paladin in melee. For example, lower the range on Retribution aura to 5 yards, but make it actually do sizeable amounts of burst damage - say, a chance to proc and reflect all damage. Or give devotion aura an extra 2-10% resistance to all schools of magic with talent points in the ret tree. Or maybe just make all auras work as both buffs and debuffs with appropriate talents - eg, Devo aura would raise armor for all party members in range, and lower it for all enemies in range, Conc would prevent interruption in casting for party members and slow casting for enemies, and so on.
b) a true crowd control ability - either faster casting, longer effect, or wider range of mobs affected by repentance, or possibly a new form of crowd control for demons or undead equivalent to priest's shackle undead, warlocks banish undead and elementals, or druids sleep beasts. (turn undead is a poor substitute)
Just a couple talking points.
They should change the 41pt talent of Retribution. Make Crusader Strike a core ability (Paladins need more controlled damage anyways) and make the new 41pt talent a "form" like Shadowform, except instead of shadow its focus is on light.
Remove Avenging Wrath and give the new "form" its capabilities, but also a "lowers armor by <amount> and is unable to cast Divine Shield or Divine Protection." This still gives us Blessing of Protection for kicks, but if you throw a bubble it'll cancel the "form." To avoid the invincible crit-monster.
Just a thought. They should totally redo the Avenging Wrath design if they decided to make that "form," though. Hell, they should redo the design anyways. Silly wings are silly.
Yes plz.
Remove Avenging Wrath and give the new "form" its capabilities, but also a "lowers armor by <amount> and is unable to cast Divine Shield or Divine Protection." This still gives us Blessing of Protection for kicks, but if you throw a bubble it'll cancel the "form." To avoid the invincible crit-monster.
Just a thought. They should totally redo the Avenging Wrath design if they decided to make that "form," though. Hell, they should redo the design anyways. Silly wings are silly.
Yes plz.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
They should have called Avenging Wrath -> Power of the Light. The paladin calls upon the power of the light increasing damage by 100%.
Paladins could go really bright white or something like that, similar to Berserker form or something like that. That would look awesome and make more sense. Or use that as the shadow form for ret pallies. Make it at the expense of all heals, bubbles and LoH. That would balance out any increase in DPS. Maybe a cool down on heal spells too if need be. What do you ret pallies think of that as a compromise? It could be called Holy Warrior/Knight form or something like that.
It's an interesting idea, but they'd have to make you have some form of cooldown/something when you came out of the form before you could bubble/LOH or go back into the form, or otherwise you could basically just "stance dance"/"power shift" for bubbles/LOH which would kind of make the whole "no bubbles, no healing" thing kind of pointless.
I really would like to see something done to make ret viable at end-game, but I'm afraid that it's just not going to happen.
I really would like to see something done to make ret viable at end-game, but I'm afraid that it's just not going to happen.
I'm seeing a Bestial Wrath thing for Ret Pally fix, actually.
Call it Religious Frenzy, or Zealotry, or Fervor, or something.
Plainly and simply, it boosts damage output for a short duration (20 seconds?) rather noticeably, has a cooldown of 3-5 minutes. You've a 50% increased resistance to stuns, roots, snares, disorients.
In PvP, you can take hits, and you pop Zealotry to tear down the opponent before the cooldown is off, and you become normal defensive ret pally again. You'll be able to do that in 3 minutes again. In PvE, you use it every time it's off cooldown, maybe in sync with other boost effects you may have like a trinket?
Call it Religious Frenzy, or Zealotry, or Fervor, or something.
Plainly and simply, it boosts damage output for a short duration (20 seconds?) rather noticeably, has a cooldown of 3-5 minutes. You've a 50% increased resistance to stuns, roots, snares, disorients.
In PvP, you can take hits, and you pop Zealotry to tear down the opponent before the cooldown is off, and you become normal defensive ret pally again. You'll be able to do that in 3 minutes again. In PvE, you use it every time it's off cooldown, maybe in sync with other boost effects you may have like a trinket?
Okay.
For raids:
1. They've already got a 30% threat reduction deep into the tree, so that's not as much of a problem; what they need is more damage potential, and more utility. Putting some powerful debuffs deep into the Ret tree (a special seal or an improved version of an existing seal) and I see someone suggesting Vindication on raid bosses.
2. Auras. They need an aura that increases DPS; basically Aura of Might is what I'm thinking. Then their utility isn't their own DPS, it's how they increase other melee DPS'performance.
3. Move Holy Shock to Ret, or give Ret an equivalent. No, I'm not kidding. It may make no sense, but it makes less sense where it is - a direct-damage instant-cast offensive spell in the middle of the healing tree. Change it to an instant strike, like he's hurling a weapon, and it justifies it using regular Ret melee stats instead of spell damage.
4. Someone suggested Zealotry? Yeah. That's an awesome idea. Like Adrenaline Rush for Paladins.
For PvP:
1. An ability, like Intercept or Charge or Shadowstep, that allows them to get where they want. Positioning in PvP is valuable, and Paladins suck at the movement thing. PoJ is great, but there could be an "oh crap, I need to be there right now" ability.
2. A spell interrupt would be incredibly desirable. Right now our own reliable way to stop someone casting is Hammer of Justice. Rogues get Kick, ffs. Something on a fifteen or twenty second cooldown that interrupts casting/silences for X seconds could make Ret the anti-caster build.
3. I don't know, I'm out of ideas right now and my current ones are probably crap. It's really late out here! Well it's actually early evening but I sleep during the day!
The point is to make them better without allowing this to mix with their already potent defensive abilities. Paladins are hard to kill, and deal crappy damage. Rogues are easy to kill, and hit like a truck covered in knives. So it needs to be arranged so that to get the really good things about Ret, you need pure Ret. Or something.
If we could become an invincible crusader of doom for thirty seconds it would make Arena our sandbox. Even if it only lasts for thirty seconds.
For raids:
1. They've already got a 30% threat reduction deep into the tree, so that's not as much of a problem; what they need is more damage potential, and more utility. Putting some powerful debuffs deep into the Ret tree (a special seal or an improved version of an existing seal) and I see someone suggesting Vindication on raid bosses.
2. Auras. They need an aura that increases DPS; basically Aura of Might is what I'm thinking. Then their utility isn't their own DPS, it's how they increase other melee DPS'performance.
3. Move Holy Shock to Ret, or give Ret an equivalent. No, I'm not kidding. It may make no sense, but it makes less sense where it is - a direct-damage instant-cast offensive spell in the middle of the healing tree. Change it to an instant strike, like he's hurling a weapon, and it justifies it using regular Ret melee stats instead of spell damage.
4. Someone suggested Zealotry? Yeah. That's an awesome idea. Like Adrenaline Rush for Paladins.
For PvP:
1. An ability, like Intercept or Charge or Shadowstep, that allows them to get where they want. Positioning in PvP is valuable, and Paladins suck at the movement thing. PoJ is great, but there could be an "oh crap, I need to be there right now" ability.
2. A spell interrupt would be incredibly desirable. Right now our own reliable way to stop someone casting is Hammer of Justice. Rogues get Kick, ffs. Something on a fifteen or twenty second cooldown that interrupts casting/silences for X seconds could make Ret the anti-caster build.
3. I don't know, I'm out of ideas right now and my current ones are probably crap. It's really late out here! Well it's actually early evening but I sleep during the day!
The point is to make them better without allowing this to mix with their already potent defensive abilities. Paladins are hard to kill, and deal crappy damage. Rogues are easy to kill, and hit like a truck covered in knives. So it needs to be arranged so that to get the really good things about Ret, you need pure Ret. Or something.
If we could become an invincible crusader of doom for thirty seconds it would make Arena our sandbox. Even if it only lasts for thirty seconds.
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