I've stopped seeing things about Firelocks. I wonder about their raid viability now, and if it's possible for a Firelock's DPS to outdo other Destruction locks at the Karazhan/Gruul raid level if properly geared with Spellfire and Spellstrike. (I'm aware that Shadowbolts are massive damage at high-end raiding.)
Also, if any firelocks are still around, do they use an improved Gatling Imp? Or do they Sacrifice Imp for 15% more fire damage?
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Posted: Jan 28 2008 at 1:11 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes they still exist, they are called fire mages.
doubt that was the answer he was looking for. As for myself I MT tank with a feral druid, I haven't seen a firelock in our group however I think that one o four other groups does, I'll keep asking till I find out. I can't see why it wouldn't work, now obiovusly Shadow Bolt+DoTs would be the normal path but I've seen 49s critting for 7k with soulfire so I can imagen a 70 hitting for 10k or so, add that to imolate and you could be all set. I would ask your server and hopefully I'll get back to you with the person in our guild
Velkyri wrote:
I'll keep asking till I find out.
hopefully I'll get back to you with the person in our guild
hopefully I'll get back to you with the person in our guild
Thanks, that'd be great.
I play Hordeside on Scarlet Crusade, an medium-pop RP server with halfasmuch Horde as Alliance. It'd be very hard for me to find a deviate-spec raider with so few raiding guilds.
what exactly are you trying to find out?
Are you looking for a fire-destro specc?
Are you looking for a fire-destro specc?
No no and no.
A fire 'locks DPS will not be as good as a Shadow Destro 'lock. Imp SB being the main reason. The buff from Imp SB is just too good.
A fire 'locks DPS will not be as good as a Shadow Destro 'lock. Imp SB being the main reason. The buff from Imp SB is just too good.
Oakenwrath wrote:
what exactly are you trying to find out?
Are you looking for a fire-destro specc?
Are you looking for a fire-destro specc?
Yes. I'm looking for a warlock who primarily uses Immolate and other fire spells more than Shadowbolt, and is geared appropriately so that the firelock at least keeps up with a shadow-bolting warlock of around the same Gear iLevel.
I do not expect it to be a warlock geared very far past Kara/Gruul, because I know that Improved Shadowbolt frankly makes the spell closed to overpowered.
I recall reading in the past that Firelocks could do slightly better than normal destruction warlocks if geared more like a mage at early raid progression because of some mechanics with Immolate and Conflagrate and Incinerate and blah-de-blah.
But now that I'm looking for that information again, I cannot find it, or anything about fire-specific destruction warlocks.
So I'm looking once again to see if it's possible to make a raid-viable firelock, if for nothing else but sh*ts and giggles.
It's like moonkin and shaman tanking heroics, but nowhere near as crazy.
Edited, Jan 28th 2008 6:16pm by Raglu
At early stages of raiding it is certainly viable. The current highest dpser/damage dealer in our guild is a fire-destro lock. However as we are progressing into TK/SSC/ZA his gap is narrowing considerably and quite fast.
While he manages to put out ~1k dps consistently everyone is fast catching up and I believe we will be leaving him in the dust pretty soon. As it is in SSC now on Lurker and Hydross he is now only 2nd or 3rd since a couple mages and the SPriest have gotten upgrades.
In short: It might be viable for Gruul's/Kara but really not after.
While he manages to put out ~1k dps consistently everyone is fast catching up and I believe we will be leaving him in the dust pretty soon. As it is in SSC now on Lurker and Hydross he is now only 2nd or 3rd since a couple mages and the SPriest have gotten upgrades.
In short: It might be viable for Gruul's/Kara but really not after.
that firelock in your guild would do more dps as shadow as well as help out any Spriest or other lock in the raid more. granted if it's that you have no other shadow casters and only fire mages then i can understand his reasoning for fire.. unluckily for him though his reasoning is still flawed. i'm pretty certain that even with no Spriest but with fire mages in the raid, Shadow dest out performs fire dest.
Eh I'm a fire lock = Ayamai(blackhand server)
This is one of many ALTs though and Definately my least played, but I've done kara plenty and some gruuls. and easily first on Dmg by a considerable amount(ALWAYS first by 500K, sometimes up to a million in kara, THOUGH I attribute that completely to other players sucking more than myself being good.)
Why am I a fire lock?
1: Because I like it. I Love fire spells, and it's my character. I find spamming SB to be boring.
Emberstorm: Increases the dmg done by your fire spells by 10%
Sacrifice imp: Increases the dmg done by your fire spells by 15%
Curse of elements: Would increase your fire dmg to the target by 10%
IF there's a scorch mage (With is stacked to the maximum) Fire dmg +15%
Fire warlock doesn't Have anything equal to IMP SB To support other classes
Scorch mage gives Fire warlock more dmg from imp scorch
Shadow priests provide 5% spell dmg from misery
Imp shadowbolt : 20% Shadow dmg done to the target Lasts 12 seconds or 4 sources on Shadowbolt crit
Sacrifice succubus : 15% shadow dmg
Curse of shadows : 10% Shadow dmg
If there's a shadow priest (Shadow weaving x5) 10% shadow dmg +5% misery
SB warlocks Give shadow priests more Dmg from Imp SB
Shadow Priests give SB warlocks more Dmg from Shadow weaving/misery.
Okay so
There's a 5% difference in the two specs..
HOWEVER
You need to crit to proc 20% from Imp SB (Which means it will be on the mobs Almost all the time, but still the fire dmg bonus will Always be there no matter what
Note that the destruction tree has THREE Spells that specifically relate to shadow Dmg
(Imp SB, Shadowburn, Shadowfury)The latter of two which are not going to be spammed.
and
FIVE That specifically help Fire spells(Improved immolate, Emberstorm, Conflagrate, Improved Searing Pain, Pyroclasm). Once again the latter two arent so useful.
TEN That help both fire and shadow, However
Bane: 2 fire 1 shadow
Soul Leech: 4 fire 2 Shadow
These talents affect more Fire spells than Shadow.
Also note that the Tooltip on shadowbolt rank 10= 482-538 dmg
And on Incinerate rank 2 = 442-514 (Plus 111-128.5 Dmg if affected by immolate)
So 553-642.5 ALL while Immolate is ticking on the mob.
Also conflagrate itself is 579-721 instant dmg if the target is affected by immolate ( Best used when immolate is almost up)
Shadow destro lock = Spam SB
Fire Destro lock = Immolate -> Incin Incin Incin ->Conflag (Soul fire when you want)
Overall I think they seem pretty equal..Fire gives you more spell options than SB which is mainly why I chose it, and obviously destruction tree has more talents which affect strictly fire spells, so that seemed like a good decision to me.
Now I'm not good at math I'm not going to start saying which is more DPS and all that. Just from my experience in the lower raids Fire destruction seems to be Underestimated.
If I messed up something in my post sorry it's 8AM and I haven't slept
This is one of many ALTs though and Definately my least played, but I've done kara plenty and some gruuls. and easily first on Dmg by a considerable amount(ALWAYS first by 500K, sometimes up to a million in kara, THOUGH I attribute that completely to other players sucking more than myself being good.)
Why am I a fire lock?
1: Because I like it. I Love fire spells, and it's my character. I find spamming SB to be boring.
- 2: Okay so if you're destro(0/21/40) and fire You get :
Emberstorm: Increases the dmg done by your fire spells by 10%
Sacrifice imp: Increases the dmg done by your fire spells by 15%
Curse of elements: Would increase your fire dmg to the target by 10%
IF there's a scorch mage (With is stacked to the maximum) Fire dmg +15%
Fire warlock doesn't Have anything equal to IMP SB To support other classes
Scorch mage gives Fire warlock more dmg from imp scorch
Shadow priests provide 5% spell dmg from misery
- Potentially can get Fire Spells dmg done to target increased by 55%
- If you're Destro 0/21/40 and shadow:
Imp shadowbolt : 20% Shadow dmg done to the target Lasts 12 seconds or 4 sources on Shadowbolt crit
Sacrifice succubus : 15% shadow dmg
Curse of shadows : 10% Shadow dmg
If there's a shadow priest (Shadow weaving x5) 10% shadow dmg +5% misery
SB warlocks Give shadow priests more Dmg from Imp SB
Shadow Priests give SB warlocks more Dmg from Shadow weaving/misery.
- Potential to increase shadow dmg done to target by 60%
Okay so
There's a 5% difference in the two specs..
HOWEVER
You need to crit to proc 20% from Imp SB (Which means it will be on the mobs Almost all the time, but still the fire dmg bonus will Always be there no matter what
Note that the destruction tree has THREE Spells that specifically relate to shadow Dmg
(Imp SB, Shadowburn, Shadowfury)The latter of two which are not going to be spammed.
and
FIVE That specifically help Fire spells(Improved immolate, Emberstorm, Conflagrate, Improved Searing Pain, Pyroclasm). Once again the latter two arent so useful.
TEN That help both fire and shadow, However
Bane: 2 fire 1 shadow
Soul Leech: 4 fire 2 Shadow
These talents affect more Fire spells than Shadow.
Also note that the Tooltip on shadowbolt rank 10= 482-538 dmg
And on Incinerate rank 2 = 442-514 (Plus 111-128.5 Dmg if affected by immolate)
So 553-642.5 ALL while Immolate is ticking on the mob.
Also conflagrate itself is 579-721 instant dmg if the target is affected by immolate ( Best used when immolate is almost up)
Shadow destro lock = Spam SB
Fire Destro lock = Immolate -> Incin Incin Incin ->Conflag (Soul fire when you want)
Overall I think they seem pretty equal..Fire gives you more spell options than SB which is mainly why I chose it, and obviously destruction tree has more talents which affect strictly fire spells, so that seemed like a good decision to me.
Now I'm not good at math I'm not going to start saying which is more DPS and all that. Just from my experience in the lower raids Fire destruction seems to be Underestimated.
If I messed up something in my post sorry it's 8AM and I haven't slept
if i were you i´d stay away from conflag unless the mob dies of it or is really close to die.
conflag isn't part of the spell rotation other than for finishers, also shadow has a highier damage coefficent and you don't just spam SB as shadow dest. common misconception. add corruption/immolate, depending on your gear level.
your 'maths' faux are the same as most warlocks. they see lots of +fire % damage increases and think "ohhhh!!! it MUST be a fire tree, oh wait. there's ISB.. but it's only a proc so it can't be good". well sadly you're wrong. even without ISB up constantly (and it rarely ever is. average up time is about 60%) shadow beats fire in solo dps, then add to the equation that it increases all shadow damage (both direct and dot) in the raid, so improving all other locks and Spriests damage, so then increasing the mana regen given to the Spriests group etc... well, put it simply fire is just left behind in shadows dust.
your 'maths' faux are the same as most warlocks. they see lots of +fire % damage increases and think "ohhhh!!! it MUST be a fire tree, oh wait. there's ISB.. but it's only a proc so it can't be good". well sadly you're wrong. even without ISB up constantly (and it rarely ever is. average up time is about 60%) shadow beats fire in solo dps, then add to the equation that it increases all shadow damage (both direct and dot) in the raid, so improving all other locks and Spriests damage, so then increasing the mana regen given to the Spriests group etc... well, put it simply fire is just left behind in shadows dust.
I dont know if this question has been answered yet as I didnt read through all the replys. I have some personal experience in what you are talking about.
I was affliction spec while raiding in TK and SSC. We had ou guild disband and since I wasnt one of the stronger players I wasnt invited to the high power raiding guilds. I moved to a kara guild and since I was bored I decided to go destro.
Because of my gear being FSW and 4/5 T4 my spell crit and fire gear is pretty low. With that being said I tried to use a shadow blot spam and then a immolate incinerate.
I found that because my crit is not as high I get much much higher dps using the fire spells.
Here is my cast sequence Immolate>Incinerate spam>confag at last tick of immolate and rince and repeat.
Incinerate not only crits for more but for whatever reason it crits more often for me. I am sure that once my crit chance goes up the shadow bolts will be better but right now with only 16% crit this is what works for my gear.
I was affliction spec while raiding in TK and SSC. We had ou guild disband and since I wasnt one of the stronger players I wasnt invited to the high power raiding guilds. I moved to a kara guild and since I was bored I decided to go destro.
Because of my gear being FSW and 4/5 T4 my spell crit and fire gear is pretty low. With that being said I tried to use a shadow blot spam and then a immolate incinerate.
I found that because my crit is not as high I get much much higher dps using the fire spells.
Here is my cast sequence Immolate>Incinerate spam>confag at last tick of immolate and rince and repeat.
Incinerate not only crits for more but for whatever reason it crits more often for me. I am sure that once my crit chance goes up the shadow bolts will be better but right now with only 16% crit this is what works for my gear.
that's called you not doing a decent test. the crit chance is the same for both. also using conflag is a dps decrease. only worth it as a finisher, same with shadowburn. also the idea that incinerate crits for more is pretty rediculous. i'm presuming you had a fire mage and no Spriest as that's the only way that can occure
Im just saying what happened. I did two heroic runs in bot one I did with shadow bolts and the other with incinerate and I did 100k more damage.
I dont know why im not a super hardcore gamer but my damage was higher.
Flame somone who assumes not someone who has compared the two and found which works better for him
I dont know why im not a super hardcore gamer but my damage was higher.
Flame somone who assumes not someone who has compared the two and found which works better for him
i usually disagree with jenova on everyting, but he is right.
Fire scales so poorly in a PvE enviroment that it ain´t even funny.
I started raiding with fire back in the days and th edmg-output was pathetic
compared to shadow-destros.
Fire scales so poorly in a PvE enviroment that it ain´t even funny.
I started raiding with fire back in the days and th edmg-output was pathetic
compared to shadow-destros.
Well like i said I am not sure why my damage went up but it did. I just dont like hearing that I am being "ridiculous" if I took some time to see what works better. Maybe I was doing something wrong.
Does it matter that with immolate up and that improving incinerate that it is working better? I dont know.
I have read a lot on this topic because I really wanted to get into a destruction build. I spent hours filtering through elitist jerks and what you are saying is exactly what I read.
The thing is it has been more effective for me to use my fire spells. Maybe it is the lack of a shadow priest. I am sure in a 25 man setting with another lock with 3/3 Mal and a SP that SB spams will be better but right now that isnt the case.
Maybe another factor could be the length something lives? The mobs die very fast so often time imp sb doesnt proc. Just throwing a few ideas out there.
Does it matter that with immolate up and that improving incinerate that it is working better? I dont know.
I have read a lot on this topic because I really wanted to get into a destruction build. I spent hours filtering through elitist jerks and what you are saying is exactly what I read.
The thing is it has been more effective for me to use my fire spells. Maybe it is the lack of a shadow priest. I am sure in a 25 man setting with another lock with 3/3 Mal and a SP that SB spams will be better but right now that isnt the case.
Maybe another factor could be the length something lives? The mobs die very fast so often time imp sb doesnt proc. Just throwing a few ideas out there.
Quote:
Im just saying what happened. I did two heroic runs in bot one I did with shadow bolts and the other with incinerate and I did 100k more damage.
Did you have the exact same group? Did they all die at the exact same time? Were the AoE pulls immune to shadow at all the same times? Fire? How about Laj? Did he go through the exact same cycles of resistances?
This is the dumbest experiment I've ever heard. You "tested" a theory in an uncontrolled environment and didn't think that there may be some margin of error in your results? Don't ever become a scientist.
ncwrestler wrote:
I did two heroic runs in bot one I did with shadow bolts and the other with incinerate and I did 100k more damage.
If all people would do theorycraft based on 2 examples..... I hope you realize what you wrote there.
Its not only testing in uncontrolled environment as Loki said, but number of tests being 2? Cammon...
if people theorycrafted like that they'd all be called oaken...
:P
:P
wow...putting in your input and admitting it may be flawed I guess isnt good enough.
Bottom line I noticed a signifigant change in my damage over two runs with two different play styles and the same group. We dont wipe no one dies in our runs. I will be testing this in kara tonight so I will certainly notice a difference there.
Its useless to go on with this subject. To the OP, sorry for attempting to help out.
Bottom line I noticed a signifigant change in my damage over two runs with two different play styles and the same group. We dont wipe no one dies in our runs. I will be testing this in kara tonight so I will certainly notice a difference there.
Its useless to go on with this subject. To the OP, sorry for attempting to help out.
Fauxreal, your math is flawed.
Fire:
Scales at .366 +dmg/sec
Multipliers at +68% (Imp, Emberstorm, CoE, Scorch, Misery)
Shadow:
Scales at .423 +dmg/sec
Multipliers at between 46.1% and 75.4%
Extremely high raid synergy - every 10% ISB uptime increases raid DPS by an extremely rough 100dps, for every shadow damage dealer; i.e. 2-lock + spriest with 50% ISB uptime (what I usually run with) is a raid boost of about 1500dps. There is simply *no* situation where a fire lock will be able to keep up with that.
Plus, using the number of spells talents affects? What the hell? That's a basis for comparison now? Okay then! Improved SBolt effects... Sbolt, Corruption, Shadowburn, UA, Siphon Life, Mind Flay, Mind Blast, SWP, SWD, Vampiric Touch, and Devouring Plague. Shadow wins.
Edited, Jan 29th 2008 3:59pm by lsfreak
Fire:
Scales at .366 +dmg/sec
Multipliers at +68% (Imp, Emberstorm, CoE, Scorch, Misery)
Shadow:
Scales at .423 +dmg/sec
Multipliers at between 46.1% and 75.4%
Extremely high raid synergy - every 10% ISB uptime increases raid DPS by an extremely rough 100dps, for every shadow damage dealer; i.e. 2-lock + spriest with 50% ISB uptime (what I usually run with) is a raid boost of about 1500dps. There is simply *no* situation where a fire lock will be able to keep up with that.
Plus, using the number of spells talents affects? What the hell? That's a basis for comparison now? Okay then! Improved SBolt effects... Sbolt, Corruption, Shadowburn, UA, Siphon Life, Mind Flay, Mind Blast, SWP, SWD, Vampiric Touch, and Devouring Plague. Shadow wins.
Edited, Jan 29th 2008 3:59pm by lsfreak
Quote:
Fauxreal, your math is flawed.
Lol yeah I knew that, I said it probably was considering english is my strong point and I am crap at math, probably shouldn't have posted, but I did so it is what it is now.
Quote:
Plus, using the number of spells talents affects? What the hell? That's a basis for comparison now? Okay then! Improved SBolt effects... Sbolt, Corruption, Shadowburn, UA, Siphon Life, Mind Flay, Mind Blast, SWP, SWD, Vampiric Touch, and Devouring Plague. Shadow wins.
Well..I was specifically talking about 0/21/40 build and specifically warlocks, therefore /UA/Siphon Life/Mind flay/Mind blast/SWP/SWD/VT/Devouring Plague are not really included as they are not included in this build..
I was only Trying to say : Fire gives you more spell options than SB. Nothing more.
Also..I don't think there's a Shadow wins. Fire wins to me because I like playing it, and am good at it.
Plus the OP Specifically asked about kara and gruuls, so it really doesn't even matter. I guess the answer is, Yes there are fire locks around, I know a few more. They're fine for Kara/gruuls I can't say beyond that obviously since my lock hasn't been there.
Any good player will outdo a worse player, and at least on my server 80% of the warlocks doing Pve really suck and are easy to out dps, it's just easier for shadow to out dps a fire warlock ..but will it happen always? no.
Edited, Jan 29th 2008 9:13pm by Fauxreal
but they are included, as ISB increases all their damage.
If your in the mood to change things up a bit, then yes, fire can be fun. I spent awhile as DT/Ruin for a little change, and plan to try and test out Felguard in a raid envoirnment as well....BUT, that doesnt always mean its best.
Yes, there are Fire Locks who out dps Shadow Locks, but the reason are factors other than the build itself.
If you remove....gear,buffs/debuffs, and skill. Shadow will ALWAYS be the better dps option. The reasons why have been previously stated in earlier posts.
Obviously a Fire Lock is gonna out dps a Shadow Lock if that Shadow Lock doesnt know how to play his class/spec, obviously they will out dps a Shadow Lock if they outgear them by a significant amount. Obviously they will out dps the Shadow Lock if they raid has no Spriests and few Warlocks but a few Fire Mages.
So yes, Fire Locks can out dps Shadow Locks, but ONLY because of factors OTHER than the build itself. And those Fire Locks who are out dpsing the Shadow Locks.....would have even better dps if they switched to being Shadow Locks.
Shadow is better in just about every way, better coefficients, ISB(which not only helps your dps, but helps the entire raid...yay for synergy), and the added benefits of other raid buffs, shadow benefiting more than fire in most raid setups.
Other than just changing things up a bit, and gimping your own dps. The only thing Fire Locks excel at is mana efficiency. Incinerate being more mana efficient than Shadowbolt. This is not really too big an issue though. As regardless of being Shadow OR Fire Dest, your gonna be life tapping and getting heals to deal with mana issues to begin with.
Yes, there are Fire Locks who out dps Shadow Locks, but the reason are factors other than the build itself.
If you remove....gear,buffs/debuffs, and skill. Shadow will ALWAYS be the better dps option. The reasons why have been previously stated in earlier posts.
Obviously a Fire Lock is gonna out dps a Shadow Lock if that Shadow Lock doesnt know how to play his class/spec, obviously they will out dps a Shadow Lock if they outgear them by a significant amount. Obviously they will out dps the Shadow Lock if they raid has no Spriests and few Warlocks but a few Fire Mages.
So yes, Fire Locks can out dps Shadow Locks, but ONLY because of factors OTHER than the build itself. And those Fire Locks who are out dpsing the Shadow Locks.....would have even better dps if they switched to being Shadow Locks.
Shadow is better in just about every way, better coefficients, ISB(which not only helps your dps, but helps the entire raid...yay for synergy), and the added benefits of other raid buffs, shadow benefiting more than fire in most raid setups.
Other than just changing things up a bit, and gimping your own dps. The only thing Fire Locks excel at is mana efficiency. Incinerate being more mana efficient than Shadowbolt. This is not really too big an issue though. As regardless of being Shadow OR Fire Dest, your gonna be life tapping and getting heals to deal with mana issues to begin with.
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