Sticking up for the Big Guy (Rant)Follow

Oh yeah...he's got the gumption

There’s Ret bashing on every forum that’s just the way it is. It used to irritate me but anymore I find it entertaining and that’s the main reason I read these forums. I think Bhodi and Dil act like di*kheads but more times than not they know what they are talking about. They’ve both had some great lines and analogies in the past that have made me LOL. Drama, sarcasm, humor these forums have it all

Edited, Jan 28th 2008 12:50pm by chood

Upon reading this thread a question/point came to mind. On all raids the overall raid DPS is the big factor in how fast the raid goes. Has anyone done a comparison of the overall damage contribution to a raid of a DPS class at about 1000 DPS which is T4 gear lvl( hunter, mage etc ) and T4 Ret pally. To do this accuratly you would need to add in the damage increases from Sanc Aura and Imp SoC which would be +5% damage from melee and +3.5% from caster applied to the whole raid. If there are 15 DPS class toons in a raid and the average increase is about 4.25% then about about 650DPS is added passivly by the ret pally, now I am sure they can do 500DPS so that would seem to be a at least as good as a reg DPS class as they also bring along a blessing. If the mobs are non critable then this amount would be less and I am not sure how many mobs are uncrittable. I don't play a ret pally but have wondered about this.


Kang

"Lol Ret" Now I say this out of experience, I've tried leveling as Ret from about 1-50 because someone told me it was the "ideal" leveling spec. It sucked! Truth is maybe I diddn't know how to play it, maybe I did but when I specced Prot and started AoE grinding everything went MUCH FASTER!

Granted Ret is a little better with the new patch so for giggles I respecced to Ret at level 66 and omg did I type wtf!!11 Lets just say I hearthed to Silvermoon and was done with it. My Paladin reached 70(using Prot) and recently respecced Holy. Now I dont really like healing but the healing mana efficiency of Paladins just blew me away! I'm never respeccing again.

/signed

Thank you Cap'n Jack!

I have to say, the (relative) civility and helpfulness of this board is what drew me here and what keeps me here. All of that seems to disappear the moment anyone mentions ret.

I leveled up as a holy paladin, and I'm specced so far into holy now that I'm essentially useless for anything besides a healing role. Hey, I like it, it's my character, and one thing I seem to be really good at. I've had tons of people look at my gear and my build and tell me both suck, but I've never had anybody run with me in a raid or instance group and tell me I can't heal. I don't know why anybody thinks it's hard or slow to level a holy paladin - by the time I got a few talents (and especially Verigan's Fist), I could level just fine. Heck, I could kill lots of things other classes at my level couldn't - spellusers come up with a lot of "resists" when fighting things higher than their level, and melee fighters run out of ways to heal themselves. I just hunker down doing my tiny bits of white damage and saving my mana to heal, and fighting mobs several levels above me I could usually manage to die slower than they did.

I tried leveling a ret paladin and I sucked. I could not dps my way out of a paper bag, and I couldn't heal myself, much less a group. But I've played with ret paladins in raids, groups, and BG's that absolutely rock, so I'm pretty sure it's the way I play, not the spec. The most fun I ever had on a battleground was following a ret pally around keeping him alive. That was in the grand old days of 40 hour AV's, and I don't think either of us died once during the whole fight.

I've run with prot paladin tanks, never played prot, but a good tank is a good tank. If nobody else gets killed until the tank dies, I figure the tank is good and whatever class and spec he's playing is good. And I've healed some damn good pally tanks.

I think it would be really fun to design some experiments to test raid utility, and settle a few of these questions. First, you'd need to find people that were really good at their classes - or at least thought they were. Then put together a 24-person raid, add a ret paladin, and use a strategy that makes full use of him. See what the dps and healing stats of the party look like as a whole. Run it again with a BM hunter, fury warrior, enhancement shaman, etc. My nagging suspicion is that in most fights, it won't make much difference at all. In some fights, however, there will be that one ability that makes the whole thing just doable. For example, I never bother judging a seal onto a boss in a boss fight. For me, that's an extra second I could actually be doing something useful, and with resealing and judging I lose two seconds out of thirty plus the mana involved. And our raids usually have two holy paladins. With a ret paladin in the mix, that's three seals that could be running on the boss, where now we have none. There is the extra aura, an extra lay on hands, the cleanses, the DI, the bubble (just think of the Illhoof fight - a bubble means you don't need to transfer either the heals or the dps to the demonic chains!). I'm sure good people in all the other class off-specs would be able to develop their own best way to use their talents. And the question, especially in the 25 person raids, becomes not which one is best, but which ones will make it impossible to win.

But like Cap'n Jack says, let's get out of this "Ret sucks! Ret rocks!" pissing contest. Different people have different playstyles, and if someone tells me they could level up much faster as a ret paladin, I'm not going to tell them it's all BS just because I couldn't do it. And I'm not going to be taking any ret paladin's word about how hard it is to level holy, regardless of how great he is or how much damage he can do. I know better, because I leveled holy. I'll be just as happy to hear how great ret paladins can be in raids as I was to hear how great holy paladins could be, but I too am a little tired of hearing so much mud flung whenever ret paladins are mentioned. If I wanted that, I've got a presidential race to watch.

I believe that Captian Jack has a point, as do many others.

Ret is down talked. I've never played ret and love my prot so I'll stay there. I've never played holy either.



That's why I come here, as many others. It sure has made my experience in playing better. And honestly, I don't remember one Prot crack being made on any of my threads...



I love a good joke same as the next. And a crack or two is fun, but why not actually add some viable advice in with that. I joke ingame all the time about how I can't kill. I couldn't kill a rat, but he could beat on me for the next year and I still won't die... I'm a tank, it's what I do.

Yeah, Pallys can't dps. Never have and probally never will. It's in the FAQ. It's not our roll and shouldn't be made so. But if you choose to take the Ret path, drink a lot and maybe it will improve your dps by seeing double #'s on the screen. And please feel free to come to THESE forums for advice. Those who can give it usually do, and those who don't and actually leave a post, well they need to get a girl mate. TOO much time on their hands. I'd rather be playing (or getting laid) than typing out something that is souly made to make someone feel bad about the game (as most people play games for fun).

As said, Captian's got a point. Maybe a little harsh. But I agree. For those just telling a joke, again... try and add something usefull afterwards. If all you want to do is people bash, get a life, get a different forum, get some help.

Actually, people care quite a bit about Raid Utility. I mean, hell... people bring Enhancement Shaman and Rogues sure as hell place higher on the DPS meters. People bring Survival Hunters and Arms Warriors, Shadow Priests and Feral Druids, Affliction Warlocks and Moonkin Dru... okay, so most utility classes are accepted, altough not all.

When was the last time you saw a Shadow Priest place #1 on the DPS charts? They don't, unless the rest of the raid is awful or there's a huge gear gap. What they do do is bring immense raid utility - 5% magic damage, another 10% Shadow Damage, plus a lot of free healing for their group and that whole 'mana battery' thing.

Ret brings a lot of DPS utility. It's just that a) There are already usually too many people in melee (and melee groups) for a Retadin to slot in, and b) Their utility is fairly weak. Any Paladin can autoattack between heals to reapply Seals without Crusader Strike. It's helpful, but it doesn't strictly add anything in the way that Shadow Priests or Enhancement Shaman do.

What they do need is better utility than they have, or better damage (most likely better utility). At the moment there's very little reason to replace a Rogue or other melee hybrid with them, so they end up doing inferior damage and providing mediocre utility. Some level of independence from Windfury Totem would help them immensely as well, of course - they could then slot into a different group, like a Feral Druid/Hunter group, much more easily.

Not that this is at all relevant, but it reminded me of something funny. I was playing my boomkin, and had just gotten the staff from the level 50 druid quest (having never used a staff in the past), was fighting furbolgs in Winterspring, and I failed to kill a totem when I hit it. I did 3 damage.

Needless to say, that caused much laughing to ensue when I mentioned it.

Anyway, sorry for the off topic.

Lawl Balance?

I think the ideal solution would be to change the way Seals work. Make them stronger, but turn them into Weapon Buffs. It'd negate Windfury + Seal of Whatever, but it'd make Retadins a lot more viable if you stuff them into a misc. group (example: BM Hunter plus Feral Druid). Buff their group utility a bit as well (Imp. Sanctity -> 3% more damage, maybe 4%) and you're set.

And?

Pre-TBC, the following specs were 100% worthless in any serious content.

Feral Druids
Balance Druids
BM Hunters
Arcane Mages
Protection Paladins
Retribution Paladins
Shadow Priests
Assassination Rogues
Subtlety Rogues
Elemental Shaman
Enhancement Shaman
Demonology Warlocks
Affliction Warlocks
Arms Warriors

You really think Retadins are the only spec that was bad for a long time?

It's cute when people are naive enough to think Blizz will actually fix tooltips when they make changes.

Edit: Oh, and Zip, I love my moonkin. Both of them(the one I raid with in 25 mans and the one we do ZA with). I love them lots. Granted, I'm a mage and a crit *****.

Edited, Jan 29th 2008 2:33am by Poldaran

As I read this thread I can’t help feeling a little depressed.

I’ve been playing WoW (and reading these forums) for almost exactly a year now; my first ever MMRPG and by my own admission “I suck!” I could blame equipment. My PC is old and my broadband connection is JUST over 0.5mbps, but in reality I am less capable and slower than either. I will never be a member of a high flying raid guild or a top arena team and I will (probably) never walk around in all-epic gear.

But you know what? I couldn’t care less. I am enjoying the whole experience.

I have about 20 characters on three servers; none of which are above lvl42. I’m currently levelling my first Shaman (35) and a Pally (23) on my first PvP server. I’m following Jack’s ret/holy levelling build at the moment, but I don’t know what I will eventually do with him. I’ll probably become a healer, but I’ve got three Priests; one in each discipline and I’ve never tried tanking, so I may go that way. Reading this though I may just go for the Ret route, or even a shockadin?

My (rather long-winded) point is that it doesn’t matter. You pay’s your money and play the way you want to. If someone wants to play a ret Pally for the experience, or to see where they can take the build, so what? Whatever floats your boat as they say.

My vote goes with CapJack. A little light-hearted ribbing is all part of the experience; but when someone asks for help with a ret build they probably know its limitations and reputation. Don’t they deserve the same respect as everyone else? You never know, if Blizz ever does fix Ret, those persevering Retadins could become kick-*** exponents of the build!