2.4 Warrior suggestion.Follow

Glad I could help make your dreams come true shao :D



I've said it before and I'll say it again. Warriors are so widely popular in arena for many factors but the main one being arena revolves around healing.

How do you counter healing? With the healing debuff of course, of which there are three. As stated aimed shot debuff is pretty hard to keep up as it must be applied at range and has a 3 second cast.

That leaves wound poison and mortal strike. Different but effective in doing their job. The difference however comes in the fact that warriors are far more survivable than rogues are.

If a warrior starts getting focus fired he just hits defensive stance throws on a shield and starts spamming shield block and spell reflect. Also intervening to an ally or intercepting to a enemy caster to make distance on the melee dmg he has incoming.

A rogue can pop his cooldowns and survive a FF situation for a short time but after that he's a sitting duck.

Oh, I agree with that. Funny thing is, when I say it, it usually ends up turning into a flame :P.

War/PLD made people coin the term 'scrub express'. There is some truth to it.

A sharp reminder of that - yesterder I did some 3. We ran into a War/double healer combo (Priest/druid in this case). If you ask me, this is the most disgustingly stupid 3v3 comp out there (well, War/Pld/Sha is... but War/double healer in general is a blight on this format). It's basically turning the arena into pve, where the healer spam heals, the warrior does his dps... game last forever until the other side's healer (usually single) runs out of mana and his team die. There's barely any execution requirement nor timing requirement.

Now, we won. We got 24 points, which took us to 1903. This mean they were very close to 2k, well above 1900.

What's my point?

The warrior was a keyboard turner.

Yup. That's the kind of skill needed for War/double healer to hit 1950+ rating in 3s.



A tad confused here.

ShS gives us increased mobility compared to other rogues without it. But compared to a warrior? Not really. Warriors can still do 2 intercept for every shadowstep we do.

I had frustrating experience against a war/druid team. Now normally, getting on a druid is pointless in that setup, since Intercept+Hammie will make short work of your attempt to catch up. So I'm ShS now, thinking I'm going to give it a try... due to the cooldown difference being so massive, it barely made a difference. Yes, I got on the druid more often... but all it meant is that I ate more intercept. Same end result.

Considering that you're listing this while listing Rogue's strenght over warriors, I have to correct you - even with shadowstep, we're still much less mobile then a warrior is.

And it's logical really, Warriors are lightly armored agility based fighters while Rogues have all that bulky armor and heavy 2 handers. Right?



Don't recall saying they 'can't kill people' but rather that we're the worst 5v5 class out there and that the one team format that worked for us was given a severe blow with the pain suppression change (since priest-less teams are extremely uncommon).



True jim.

But it certainly doesn't help the balance that ultimately, MS is a stronger debuff then Wound. It applies to max automatically and it is overall harder to counter.


Kavekk said the balance was the delicate and that it could be upset easily.

I don't really agree with that. in 5v5, in order for the bottom class to gain some kind of better representation, something big needs to happen. The odds are stacked pretty high against rogues and druid... small, delicate changes won't do much.

After all, Druid got two massive buff recently (shapeshift and natural perfection) and despite that, they remind way below average.

That makes a lot more sense.

So yeah, 1 specific spec, using an archaic trinket can kill someone in 5 seconds if it's a 1v1 scenario and the target is a cloth wearer or another rogue.

Good point. :P

I'll remind you however that the post you're quoting is pretty much out of context in this discussion. I was replying to someone who claimed rogues were overpowered because they'd kill you in less time it took for you to come out of a stunlock.



CloS doesn't increase our mobility, as much as it protect from a snare. When I see a rogue use CloS to get out of a Frostbite, I simply run the other way for 4 seconds. He doesn't catch me unless he uses another cooldown (which work for me, because he's wasting CD) and I start casting a rank 1 frostbolt after 3 seconds. Seriously, mage that complain about CloS are pretty sad.

You can't really say 'Vanish' bug aside. The ability is at the height of unreliability right now and probably has a failure rate over 40%. As a result, it's used more often then not as a snare breaker or to make people untarget you. Even so, Vanish makes us 'slippery', but it doesn't do much for our mobility. Assuming it works and we are stealthed, we're walking even slower now.

And lastly, if you're shadowstep, odds are good you won't have improved sprint (You have other problems if you do). Sprint is one of the most underwhelming ability in the game when it isn't improved. Seriously. You're still going slower then 100% speed if you sprint with a Snare on. You're still perfectly kitable.



It's a good thing for them that they have shorter cooldown then us, right?

Nothing like shadowstepping into a psychic scream because even untalented, PS has a shorter cooldown then ShS. Both Blink and Frost Nova also have better cooldown (untalented, gets better).

Keeping a rogue off a target isn't hard. Even Blizzard has acknowledge mobility to be one of our issue. Heck, even Jim has :P.



Harder yes, much harder? Not really. And once the other CD are done with? MUCH easier... since the ShS rogue doesn't hit anywhere as hard as your typical warrior during the few seconds where you're in contact with him.

Between Frost Nova/Blink being faster then ShS, frostbite risking a proc everytime we're hit (and rogues hit often) and the WE elemental giving a snare that can be used even if under CC as well as Ice Block giving you a 'Ok, you've outplayed me here, give me a few seconds for my CD to come back' move, this is a fight for the mage to lose.



How can you? Once sprint/vanish is over, you can't possibly keep up. Yes, CloS allows you to drop magical snare every minute... but all your 'target' has to do is keep running.

What can you do against a warrior who Intervene (This isn't only about Intercept) his Druid, Hamstrings you, then Intercept back your healer, beats on him, and when you're back to ShS on his healer, he intercepts you.

He's zipping across the screen like he's The Flash here... I understand that Warrior/Druid beats the living hell out of Rogue/Healer, but honestly, that fight is a huge lesson in 'Mobility 101: Warriors pwn', which is why I'm bringing it up.

I will agree however that a shadowstep rogues is more mobile then a Warrior as long as he has all his cooldown. If you spam the hell out of them, there's a short period of time where you're faster then he is, but youre mobility drops sharply from that point on.



You're right in every aspect here... but how does that disprove my point?

Priest got a massive buff, and that helped them... had the buff been minor, i don't think much would have changed.

Were rogues to get a buff in 5 that'd somehow make stronger in 2s (or 3s), not much would change at all. Rogues already rule 3v3, and the current op 2v2 combo (war/druid) is such a hard rogue counter they'd have to be given laser gun in order to really make a difference (HARP was op, yet we still didn't take the 2v2 crown).


Edited, Jan 31st 2008 7:15pm by Tyrandor

And this is where you get into a border line philosophical discussion. Are rogues an inferior group pvp class, or are warriors an overpowered group pvp class?

The answer to that question truly is a matter of opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that there are more warriors than rogues. One of the above has to be true, and unlike organic chemistry resonance structures there isn't a "middle ground" region. One is true and the other is not, and I'm finally starting to see it's impossible to make people think the view contradictory to theirs is the incorrect one.

Not really. Rogue would still die to FF easily.



Both statements are true depending on how your looking at it.

Rogues are inferior because warriors are OP.
Warriors are OP because the next best option is inferior.

Warriors cried when they were helpless, and people said get a healer. Now that we got a healer, the people cry. boo hoo, get over it. =)

That is by far one of the best solutions I've heard. No class changes needed just a redifining of what a rogues job in arena is. Instead of competing with warriors for a spot simply working with said warrior and being the "setup man". Rate up.

Why can't you "setup" one of the healers in 5v5? They oviously won't be able to heal themselves so their only saving grace will be BoP or PS both of which are dispellable by a priest.

Of course this doesn't cover all the angles, still lots of things that can go wrong like with any arena. Just saying it's a way around the "two healers can keep them up" problem.